My fiance was terminated from her job

[keggerz]

Numbers are assigned to workers so that they can be paid ... because she has a number does not make her an employee. The fact that she does not qualify for ANY benefits of ANY kind is an indicator that she is NOT an employee.

fwiw, we have MANY people that are part timers for the county that get NO benefits...yet they ARE employees.....go to just about ANY retailer and most of their "employees" are part time and they ARE considered EMPLOYEES

 

you may be correct by looking at what I posted above...but your logic of benefits equal and employee is faulty

[Sox]

Numbers are assigned to workers so that they can be paid ... because she has a number does not make her an employee. The fact that she does not qualify for ANY benefits of ANY kind is an indicator that she is NOT an employee.

 

Perhaps I didn't state clearly enough for you.

 

The box with the number says "EMPLOYEE ID".

 

I've read it several times now,and I'm certain it doesn't say "NOT AN EMPLOYEE ID".

[Grits and Shins]

fwiw, we have MANY people that are part timers for the county that get NO benefits...yet they ARE employees.....go to just about ANY retailer and most of their "employees" are part time and they ARE considered EMPLOYEES

 

you may be correct by looking at what I posted above...but your logic of benefits equal and employee is faulty

 

And as part timers they do not qualify for benefits ... or they qualify for a restricted set of benefits. It sounds fairly clear to me that 'casual employees' are plug and play contract workers.

[Grits and Shins]

Perhaps I didn't state clearly enough for you.

 

The box with the number says "EMPLOYEE ID".

 

I've read it several times now,and I'm certain it doesn't say "NOT AN EMPLOYEE ID".

 

 

You believe the fact that her paycheck stub says "EMPLOYEE ID" on it makes her an employee! That is rich.

 

[keggerz]

And as part timers they do not qualify for benefits ... or they qualify for a restricted set of benefits. It sounds fairly clear to me that 'casual employees' are plug and play contract workers.

well you would be wrong again:

 

511.32 Not Covered

 

Not covered by the leave program are:

 

a. Postmaster relief/leave replacements, noncareer officers in charge, and other temporary employees except as described in 511.31d.

 

b. Casual employees.

 

c. Individuals who work on a fee or contract basis, such as job cleaners.

 

 

 

They are NOT grouped with CONTRACT workers

[Grits and Shins]

well you would be wrong again:

 

511.32 Not Covered

 

Not covered by the leave program are:

 

a. Postmaster relief/leave replacements, noncareer officers in charge, and other temporary employees except as described in 511.31d.

 

b. Casual employees.

 

c. Individuals who work on a fee or contract basis, such as job cleaners.

 

 

 

They are NOT grouped with CONTRACT workers

 

Did you note that sox said his wife's CONTRACT was due to expire this summer?

 

 

Mcboog asked:

 

Cool. Now we are getting somewhere. I'll review my "handbooks" and see if I can get anywhere. EEOC is not as clear as you may think, and I don't recall pregnancy as being one of the categories (though I know it is covered in seperate law). There were some more questions though.

 

Did she every apply for a career position? Why not (if not)?

When does her current contract expire?

Are the witnesses willing to testify against the USPS on the record?

 

If I can find a way to steer you in a winning situation, I will!

 

Sox answered:

 

No-you don't apply,they call you based upon your score.

At the end of the summer,which I already mentioned in this thread much earlier,but I never expected this to get this long.

Yes.I already have a statement from a former casual that was both hired when pregnant,and given accommodations for her pregnancy.

Edited July 16, 2008 by Grits and Shins

[keggerz]

Well it sure looks to me that she fits the definition of an EMPLOYEE

 

 

Independent Contractor

 

People such as lawyers, contractors, subcontractors and auctioneers who follow an independent trade, business, or profession in which they offer their services to the public, are generally not employees. However, whether such people are employees or independent contractors depends on the facts in each case.

 

The general rule is that an individual is an independent contractor if you, the person for whom the services are performed, have the right to control or direct only the result of the work and not the means and methods of accomplishing the result.

 

 

 

Employee (Common-Law Employee)

 

Under common-law rules, anyone who performs services for you is your employee if you can control what will be done and how it will be done. This is so even when you give the employee freedom of action. What matters is that you have the right to control the details of how the services are performed.

 

 

 

Statutory Employees

 

If workers are independent contractors under the common law rules, such workers may nevertheless be treated as employees by statute (statutory employees) for certain employment tax purposes if they fall within any one of the following four categories and meet the three conditions described under Social Security and Medicare taxes, below.

 

 

Statutory Nonemployees

 

There are generally two categories of statutory nonemployees: direct sellers and licensed real estate agents. They are treated as self-employed for all Federal tax purposes, including income and employment taxes, if:

 

*

Substantially all payments for their services as direct sellers or real estate agents are directly related to sales or other output, rather than to the number of hours worked, and

*

Their services are performed under a written contract providing that they will not be treated as employees for Federal tax purposes.

 

 

 

I suppose that these definitions are wrong, right?

[keggerz]

Did you note that sox said his wife's CONTRACT was due to expire this summer?

 

 

Mcboog asked:

 

 

 

Sox answered:

then answer me this, why is she considered a CASUAL and not a CONTRACT employee by them...I have posted where it looks like she wont be able to get FMLA(hope i am wrong)...but you want to call her a contract worker and use that as the reason why she wont win.....and my point is that the USPS doesnt even consider her a contract worker.

[untateve]

Well, if you want to get technical. And judging by pretty much every response you make to every topic discussed, I'm rather certain you do... With the exception of rape, getting pregnant is very much a choice. Besides the measures one can take to avoid pregnancy when having sex, there's alway not having sex. Pretty much hard to get pregnant without having sex.

 

Why does detlef hate the Virgin Mary?

[keggerz]

MORE:

 

Common Law Rules

 

Facts that provide evidence of the degree of control and independence fall into three categories:

 

1.

Behavioral: Does the company control or have the right to control what the worker does and how the worker does his or her job?

2.

Financial: Are the business aspects of the worker’s job controlled by the payer? (these include things like how worker is paid, whether expenses are reimbursed, who provides tools/supplies, etc.)

3.

Type of Relationship: Are there written contracts or employee type benefits (i.e. pension plan, insurance, vacation pay, etc.)? Will the relationship continue and is the work performed a key aspect of the business?

 

Businesses must weigh all these factors when determining whether a worker is an employee or independent contractor. Some factors may indicate that the worker is an employee, while other factors indicate that the worker is an independent contractor. There is no “magic” or set number of factors that “makes” the worker an employee or an independent contractor, and no one factor stands alone in making this determination. Also, factors which are relevant in one situation may not be relevant in another.

 

The keys are to look at the entire relationship, consider the degree or extent of the right to direct and control, and finally, to document each of the factors used in coming up with the determination.

 

 

Type of Relationship

 

 

Type of relationship refers to facts that show how the worker and business perceive their relationship to each other.

 

The factors, for the type of relationship between two parties, generally fall into the categories of:

 

*

Written contracts

*

Employee benefits

*

Permanency of the relationship

*

Services provided as key activity of the business

 

Written Contracts

 

Although a contract may state that the worker is an employee or an independent contractor, this is not sufficient to determine the worker’s status. The IRS is not required to follow a contract stating that the worker is an independent contractor, responsible for paying his or her own self employment tax. How the parties work together determines whether the worker is an employee or an independent contractor.

 

Employee Benefits

 

Employee benefits include things like insurance, pension plans, paid vacation, sick days, and disability insurance. Businesses generally do not grant these benefits to independent contractors. However, the lack of these types of benefits does not necessarily mean the worker is an independent contractor.

 

Permanency of the Relationship

 

If you hire a worker with the expectation that the relationship will continue indefinitely, rather than for a specific project or period, this is generally considered evidence that the intent was to create an employer-employee relationship.

 

Services Provided as Key Activity of the Business

 

If a worker provides services that are a key aspect of the business, it is more likely that the business will have the right to direct and control his or her activities. For example, if a law firm hires an attorney, it is likely that it will present the attorney’s work as its own and would have the right to control or direct that work. This would indicate an employer-employee relationship.

 

Form SS-8

 

After reviewing the three categories of evidence, if you are still unsure if a worker is an employee or an independent contractor, the business can file Form SS-8, Determination of Worker Status for Purposes of Federal Employment Taxes and Income Tax Withholding (PDF) with the IRS. The form may be filed by either the business or the worker. The IRS will review the facts and circumstances and officially determine the worker’s status.

 

Be aware that it can take up to six months to get a determination, but a business that continually hires the same types of workers to perform particular services may want to consider filing the Form Form SS-8 (PDF).

 

FORM SS-8

Edited July 16, 2008 by keggerz

[Sox]

 

You believe the fact that her paycheck stub says "EMPLOYEE ID" on it makes her an employee! That is rich.

 

 

I have evidence that says she is.

 

You have only your opinion that she isn't.

[keggerz]

I have evidence that says she is.

 

You have only your opinion that she isn't.

does she get a 1099 or W-2?

[TheShiznit]

blah blah blah idiot.....

 

 

seriously...... i started out on these boards as a hardcore democrat, then flopped to the other side............... now i think you all are crazy as chit.... f u all

 

I think someone tried to score with the wife and got shut down.....and is now taking out all his anger on Detlef!!!!!

 

[SEC=UGA]

he can't

 

 

edit: temps are basically addressed in the amount of time worked...you work more then the 1250 hours(i think thats it) in 12 months then you qualify...no matter how the employer categorizes your employment

 

Here is where I essentially see the problem.

 

Though she had worked through 1 contract of 1 year, that contract ended, her employment ended. She signed a new contract, signaling the start of a new employment. These contracts only run for a year, thus the casual may not meet these requirements due to the short term of the employment contract. Thus, the casual can be fired and not have a case under the EEOC or FMLA.

[keggerz]

Here is where I essentially see the problem.

 

Though she had worked through 1 contract of 1 year, that contract ended, her employment ended. She signed a new contract, signaling the start of a new employment. These contracts only run for a year, thus the casual may not meet these requirements due to the short term of the employment contract. Thus, the casual can be fired and not have a case under the EEOC or FMLA.

the Family and Medical Leave Act(FMLA) yet?

 

(a) An ``eligible employee'' is an employee of a covered employer

who:

(1) Has been employed by the employer for at least 12 months, and

(2) Has been employed for at least 1,250 hours of service during the

12-month period immediately preceding the commencement of the leave, and

(3) Is employed at a worksite where 50 or more employees are

employed by the employer within 75 miles of that worksite. (See

Sec. 825.105(a) regarding employees who work outside the U.S.)

( The 12 months an employee must have been employed by the

employer need not be consecutive months. If an employee is maintained on

the payroll for any part of a week, including any periods of paid or

unpaid leave (sick, vacation) during which other benefits or

compensation are provided by the employer (e.g., workers' compensation,

group health plan benefits, etc.), the week counts as a week of

employment. For purposes of determining whether intermittent/occasional/

casual employment qualifies as ``at least 12 months,'' 52 weeks is

deemed to be equal to 12 months.

Edited July 16, 2008 by keggerz

[Sox]

does she get a 1099 or W-2?

 

Yep.

 

I am in fact at this very moment looking at her CASUAL TERMINATION/SEPERATION paper.

 

In the third box it gives the last day of pay status.Right below that it states,

 

"NOTE:ASSURE THAT EMPLOYEE DOES NOT WORK BEYOND THE LAST DAY IN PAY STATUS LISTED ABOVE.NO EXCEPTION!

 

Al?

[keggerz]

Yep.

 

I am in fact at this very moment looking at her CASUAL TERMINATION/SEPERATION paper.

 

In the third box it gives the last day of pay status.Right below that it states,

 

"NOTE:ASSURE THAT EMPLOYEE DOES NOT WORK BEYOND THE LAST DAY IN PAY STATUS LISTED ABOVE.NO EXCEPTION!

 

Al?

[TheShiznit]

then answer me this, why is she considered a CASUAL and not a CONTRACT employee by them...I have posted where it looks like she wont be able to get FMLA(hope i am wrong)...but you want to call her a contract worker and use that as the reason why she wont win.....and my point is that the USPS doesnt even consider her a contract worker.

 

The reason she is not a contract employee is that she is covered under the USPS Workers compensation plan if she were to get hurt at work. Blitz is off on his assertion. She is a different class of employee....as your link clearly shows.

 

However, this really does stink....and I still really think this:

 

Forget principle.....there are lots of good people with great principle who lose their jobs because of bullpoopy. Whiteboard the possible outcomes of this:

 

1.) She gets reinstated and put on unpaid leave for 12 weeks per FMLA and then she does not get her contract re-upped. But through all the brouhaha, you have tainted your reputation with the supervisors and managers and postmaster....so, now you are eggshell walking figuring they are just looking for reasons....and they will find them.

 

2.)You do nothing.......she gets let go early from her contract. Your relationship to management stays relatively intact. They won't be witch hunting on you.

 

I mean....aside from principle....even if you prevail there is really nothing here to gain.

[Squeegiebo]

What is all this crap about contract vs. permanent, etc.? The PDA/Civil Rights Act and the FMLA define who is an eligible employee. That's all that matters. The official title is irrelevant.

 

Think about it. Can Sox's fiance's employer refuse to hire African-Americans as casuals because casuals are not "employees"? Of couse not.

[TheShiznit]

the Family and Medical Leave Act(FMLA) yet?

 

(a) An ``eligible employee'' is an employee of a covered employer

who:

(1) Has been employed by the employer for at least 12 months, and

(2) Has been employed for at least 1,250 hours of service during the

12-month period immediately preceding the commencement of the leave, and

(3) Is employed at a worksite where 50 or more employees are

employed by the employer within 75 miles of that worksite. (See

Sec. 825.105(a) regarding employees who work outside the U.S.)

( The 12 months an employee must have been employed by the

employer need not be consecutive months. If an employee is maintained on

the payroll for any part of a week, including any periods of paid or

unpaid leave (sick, vacation) during which other benefits or

compensation are provided by the employer (e.g., workers' compensation,

group health plan benefits, etc.), the week counts as a week of

employment. For purposes of determining whether intermittent/occasional/

casual employment qualifies as ``at least 12 months,'' 52 weeks is

deemed to be equal to 12 months.

 

The problem here is she hasn't been employed for the last 12 months....her contract ended the end of summer 2007 and a new one started the end of summer 2007. She does not have 12 consecutive months under her new employment contract. Every contract she is considered a new employee...so her qualification for FMLA is probably suspect.

[keggerz]

The problem here is she hasn't been employed for the last 12 months....her contract ended the end of summer 2007 and a new one started the end of summer 2007. She does not have 12 consecutive months under her new employment contract. Every contract she is considered a new employee...so her qualification for FMLA is probably suspect.

read it again....it does NOT have to be consecutive

[Sox]

This getting interesting to say the least.I've seen arguments that it's ok to violate federal law based upon what if's,and she isn't really an employee.

 

Word is getting around at work.Her supervisor is getting nervous because she's the one that did the actual termination,even though the manager ordered it,and it's getting around that we're taking action.She's even gone to the lead manager and told him it would be a good idea to contact HR.I'd be willing to attest that the firing wasn't her call.Meanwhile,the manager that ordered the termination is off on vacation.

 

Funny.Not a single one of them lost one minutes sleep over this,but now that word is getting around we are taking action they begin to see the light,and/or show concern.

[keggerz]

What is all this crap about contract vs. permanent, etc.? The PDA/Civil Rights Act and the FMLA define who is an eligible employee. That's all that matters. The official title is irrelevant.

 

Think about it. Can Sox's fiance's employer refuse to hire African-Americans as casuals because casuals are not "employees"? Of couse not.

i agree....it would be interesting to see what and how a court would rule on the USPS' "policies" because they sure do seem to go against some major laws and the IRS

[TheShiznit]

read it again....it does NOT have to be consecutive

 

ok...that is fine...but wrong in this case. There is a clear severing of the relationship with one year contracts. Therefore...and I can be wrong but think not....she has not worked for 12 months for this period of her employment. This would be interesting to know for sure.

[TheShiznit]

This getting interesting to say the least.I've seen arguments that it's ok to violate federal law based upon what if's,and she isn't really an employee.

 

Word is getting around at work.Her supervisor is getting nervous because she's the one that did the actual termination,even though the manager ordered it,and it's getting around that we're taking action.She's even gone to the lead manager and told him it would be a good idea to contact HR.I'd be willing to attest that the firing wasn't her call.Meanwhile,the manager that ordered the termination is off on vacation.

 

Funny.Not a single one of them lost one minutes sleep over this,but now that word is getting around we are taking action they begin to see the light,and/or show concern.

 

Ihope you know for all my doubts I truly hope this works out for you.....really....up front.

 

However, I sure know from my dad's 30 years in the postal service how vindictive and H.R. Puffenstuffish they can be.....especially supervisors on power trips. Again....do the whiteboarding......pros and cons of doing something versus doing nothing. Principle and emotion need to be left out of this exercise....just possible good....and possible bad. That is how I make every decision in my life...leave emotion out of it.