Double Agent Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 Det is spot on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giggity Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 I agree with Detlef that it is hard to point to anything concrete. In my opinion, in a 3 way tie, you have first rank the 3 teams in some order. In this case they all lost against one or the other of the 3 so you take the overall body of work into account to try and rank them. I think the general consensus is that it is OU Texas in some 1-2 order with Texas Tech 3rd. So if you are willing to concede that TT is out of the picture you have to now have some way to rank the other two. What better way to rank two teams with identical records than H2H? If TT is eliminated from the picture and you are looking at 2 teams in a bubble by themselves, H2H seems the most logical argument to me? I don't have a strong desire to see one or the other in the BCS championship game, I think both are VERY solid teams. I am a Big 10 fan in general and an OSU fan in particular (I live in Columbus) and I think we will have a very difficult time beating either of these teams if we are selected to the Fiesta bowl this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 (edited) I agree with Detlef that it is hard to point to anything concrete. In my opinion, in a 3 way tie, you have first rank the 3 teams in some order. In this case they all lost against one or the other of the 3 so you take the overall body of work into account to try and rank them. I think the general consensus is that it is OU Texas in some 1-2 order with Texas Tech 3rd. So if you are willing to concede that TT is out of the picture you have to now have some way to rank the other two. What better way to rank two teams with identical records than H2H? If TT is eliminated from the picture and you are looking at 2 teams in a bubble by themselves, H2H seems the most logical argument to me? I don't have a strong desire to see one or the other in the BCS championship game, I think both are VERY solid teams. I am a Big 10 fan in general and an OSU fan in particular (I live in Columbus) and I think we will have a very difficult time beating either of these teams if we are selected to the Fiesta bowl this year. That all depends on whether you want to solve a 3 way tie by deciding who doesn't belong and then re-evaluating the remaining two or simply deciding who is the best among the three and moving that team forward. This gets particularly complicated when three teams are tied for two spots. Say, for instance this was a situation where the champion and 2nd place team of a conference or division move on to the playoffs and 3 teams are tied for 1st. Do you decide that Tech is the least deserving and then compare UT and OU to decide 1st and 2nd? Or do you decide which team is 1st and then recompare the remaining for the last spot? As you can imagine, it makes a very big difference. In the first case, I assume the basis for deciding Tech was the odd man out would be the points differential and that would leave UT v OU which UT would win because of H2H. In the other, it seems OU would get the nod (since H2H is not a factor until one of the three is removed from the picture). That would leave UT and Tech and UT would be the odd man out due to the same, now relevant H2H that gave UT the nod over OU. Neither manner is more fair than the other, really. The biggest problem I have with how those who favor UT in the argument look at it is that they want to dismiss Tech on the basis of reasons that they are more than happy to dismiss when it comes to comparing OU and UT. Edited December 3, 2008 by detlef Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Ryan Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 (edited) I agree with Detlef that it is hard to point to anything concrete. In my opinion, in a 3 way tie, you have first rank the 3 teams in some order. In this case they all lost against one or the other of the 3 so you take the overall body of work into account to try and rank them. I think the general consensus is that it is OU Texas in some 1-2 order with Texas Tech 3rd. So if you are willing to concede that TT is out of the picture you have to now have some way to rank the other two. What better way to rank two teams with identical records than H2H? If TT is eliminated from the picture and you are looking at 2 teams in a bubble by themselves, H2H seems the most logical argument to me? I don't have a strong desire to see one or the other in the BCS championship game, I think both are VERY solid teams. I am a Big 10 fan in general and an OSU fan in particular (I live in Columbus) and I think we will have a very difficult time beating either of these teams if we are selected to the Fiesta bowl this year. Lets take a look at the way the NFL would break this tie. http://home.earthlink.net/~ob1gui/nflrules.htm Three or More Clubs (Note: If two clubs remain tied after third or other clubs are eliminated during any step, tie breaker reverts to step 1 of the two-club format). Head-to-head (best won-lost-tied percentage in games among the clubs). - all 3 tied, move on to next tiebreaker Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the division. - all 3 tied, move on to next tiebreaker Best won-lost-tied percentage in common games. - all 3 tied, move on to next tiebreaker Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the conference. - all 3 tied, move on to next tiebreaker Strength of victory. - Each team beat each other, so the best strength of victory outside the wins over each other goes to OU. OUs win over Cincy is the highest ranked team beaten by any of these teams outside going 1-1 vs each other. THUS OU wins this tiebreaker. Then we go back to step 1 for the next 2 clubs to determine who is 2nd, and since Tech beat Texas, Tech would be the #2 team in the Big 12 south, and Texas would be 3rd. Strength of schedule. Best combined ranking among conference teams in points scored and points allowed. Best combined ranking among all teams in points scored and points allowed. Best net points in common games. Best net points in all games. Best net touchdowns in all games. Edited December 3, 2008 by Sgt Ryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockerbraves Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 Lets take a look at the way the NFL would break this tie. http://home.earthlink.net/~ob1gui/nflrules.htm Three or More Clubs (Note: If two clubs remain tied after third or other clubs are eliminated during any step, tie breaker reverts to step 1 of the two-club format). Head-to-head (best won-lost-tied percentage in games among the clubs). - all 3 tied, move on to next tiebreaker Sarge how does Texas get eliminated over TT? Doesn't it say If two clubs remain tied after third or other clubs are eliminated during any step, tie breaker reverts to step 1 of the two-club format). Two Clubs Head-to-head (best won-lost-tied percentage in games between the clubs). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 Sarge how does Texas get eliminated over TT? Doesn't it say If two clubs remain tied after third or other clubs are eliminated during any step, tie breaker reverts to step 1 of the two-club format). Two Clubs Head-to-head (best won-lost-tied percentage in games between the clubs). Sarge, he's got you there. By your example, TT gets bumped out of the mix and then UT and OU get compared, which UT wins on H2H. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Ryan Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 Sarge how does Texas get eliminated over TT? Doesn't it say If two clubs remain tied after third or other clubs are eliminated during any step, tie breaker reverts to step 1 of the two-club format). Two Clubs Head-to-head (best won-lost-tied percentage in games between the clubs). I read this as OU won the tie. They have the strongest victory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 I read this as OU won the tie. They have the strongest victory. But the NFL's format is to whittle the teams down to 2, not pluck one from 3 or more. So, they go until one team loses a tie break criteria. Thus, at #5, whomever has the worst "strongest victory" would be eliminated. Then they'd start back at the top. Honestly, I'm not sure who that is between UT and Tech, so it still might work out OU's way. However, not in the manner that you're saying it would. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockerbraves Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 I read this as OU won the tie. They have the strongest victory. Sarge the truth is the Sooners shouldn't be in the Big12 championship, but they are so enjoy it, but don't try to defend it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Ryan Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 Sarge the truth is the Sooners shouldn't be in the Big12 championship, but they are so enjoy it, but don't try to defend it. Why shouldnt they. Seriously. You dont have a valid argument in a 3 way tie scenerio. You like Texas just want to dismiss Tech, and sure you would. Texas lost to Tech, and OU killed Tech. You want to dismiss both of those. But those 2 situations are the reason OU is ranked ahead of Texas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Ryan Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 But the NFL's format is to whittle the teams down to 2, not pluck one from 3 or more. So, they go until one team loses a tie break criteria. Thus, at #5, whomever has the worst "strongest victory" would be eliminated. Then they'd start back at the top. Honestly, I'm not sure who that is between UT and Tech, so it still might work out OU's way. However, not in the manner that you're saying it would. If two clubs remain tied after third or other clubs are eliminated during any step, tie breaker reverts to step 1 of the two-club format). If 2 clubs remain tied, or other clubs are eliminated during any step, 2 clubs do not remain tied, thus both clubs Texas and Tech are eliminated. Is this not how it reads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 If two clubs remain tied after third or other clubs are eliminated during any step, tie breaker reverts to step 1 of the two-club format). If 2 clubs remain tied, or other clubs are eliminated during any step, 2 clubs do not remain tied, thus both clubs Texas and Tech are eliminated. Is this not how it reads. I can see now what you are saying but I don't think it is so cut and dry that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Double Agent Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 So Mack Brown has been crying the last week saying H2H is all that matters. He's very adamant about it. Yet in 2006, the Aggies beat Texas in Austin. Both teams finished 9-3 for the season. How does Mack vote in his final poll? Texas #15...A&M #22. Link Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 So Mack Brown has been crying the last week saying H2H is all that matters. He's very adamant about it. Yet in 2006, the Aggies beat Texas in Austin. Both teams finished 9-3 for the season. How does Mack vote in his final poll? Texas #15...A&M #22. Link I remember hearing that on the radio yesterday. Pretty funny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Ryan Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 So Mack Brown has been crying the last week saying H2H is all that matters. He's very adamant about it. Yet in 2006, the Aggies beat Texas in Austin. Both teams finished 9-3 for the season. How does Mack vote in his final poll? Texas #15...A&M #22. Link Opps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS Miscreant Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 Sarge the truth is the Sooners shouldn't be in the Big12 championship, but they are so enjoy it, but don't try to defend it. Whoa! Gotta stop that right there. Ya'll can deliberate scenarios and use outside examples to explain what you think might be a better way to do things but to say "the Sooners shouldn't be in the Big 12 championship" is just wrong. The rules state in a three way tie it goes to BCS ranking. The voters and computers believe, collectively, that OU played a tougher schedule and was overall the better team. That's what the BCS does. Therefore, they should be in the Big 12 championship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theeohiostate Posted December 3, 2008 Author Share Posted December 3, 2008 Sarge how does Texas get eliminated over TT? Doesn't it say If two clubs remain tied after third or other clubs are eliminated during any step, tie breaker reverts to step 1 of the two-club format). Two Clubs Head-to-head (best won-lost-tied percentage in games between the clubs). You'll talking to a wall if you think your gonna get those foggy glasses to see any light. If it favors OU, you'll hear about it, if it doesn't you'll hear twisted facts to distort the obvious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS Miscreant Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 Lets take a look at the way the NFL would break this tie. http://home.earthlink.net/~ob1gui/nflrules.htm Three or More Clubs (Note: If two clubs remain tied after third or other clubs are eliminated during any step, tie breaker reverts to step 1 of the two-club format). Head-to-head (best won-lost-tied percentage in games among the clubs). - all 3 tied, move on to next tiebreaker Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the division. - all 3 tied, move on to next tiebreaker Best won-lost-tied percentage in common games. - all 3 tied, move on to next tiebreaker Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the conference. - all 3 tied, move on to next tiebreaker Strength of victory. - Each team beat each other, so the best strength of victory outside the wins over each other goes to OU. OUs win over Cincy is the highest ranked team beaten by any of these teams outside going 1-1 vs each other. THUS OU wins this tiebreaker. Then we go back to step 1 for the next 2 clubs to determine who is 2nd, and since Tech beat Texas, Tech would be the #2 team in the Big 12 south, and Texas would be 3rd. Strength of schedule. Best combined ranking among conference teams in points scored and points allowed. Best combined ranking among all teams in points scored and points allowed. Best net points in common games. Best net points in all games. Best net touchdowns in all games. Alright, did a little research on this and the failure to communicate here is this. "If two clubs remain tied after third or other clubs are eliminated during any step, tie breaker reverts to step 1 of the two-club format" doesn't mean the bottom team is eliminated and we move on with the top two. It means, if Team A and Team B have the same Strength of Victory but Team C's is lower then Team C is eliminated. In the example Sgt Ryan gave, OU is the tie breaker winner and the rest of the information actually becomes moot and shouldn't even be considered. However... Strength of Victory isn't highest ranked team beat, it's net points scored(points for vs points against). So that entire example may be moot. I didn't do the math and I'm not gonna. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Ryan Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 The obvious is the rule says the tiebreaker is the highest in the BCS. And even after the pollsters were asked to vote to break the tie this week, the BCS still had OU ahead of Texas, thus per rule OU goes. Its that blunt. Texas agreed to this tiebreaker when the conference was created. Now because it didnt go their way, which I argue it shouldnt have under any 3 way tie circumstance, they are crying about it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keggerz Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 a bit off topic but one of the other things that I think is wrong with the system is how it seems that if you beat say the #1 ranked team back in week 3 but then by the end of the season they are ranked 25 that that would work against you....a football season is a very long grind and injuries happen all the time and many times injuries are a main reason a team may falter....yes there are other reasons but imo, if a team was ranked X when you played them then that is what you should get credit for ...there are just far to many variables to say well Georgia or LSU or whoever was overrated and they werent a quality win...sure they could have been overrated but I am sure there are times that it has to do with injuries etc....just a small thing that doesnt seem quite right Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keggerz Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 So Mack Brown has been crying the last week saying H2H is all that matters. He's very adamant about it. Yet in 2006, the Aggies beat Texas in Austin. Both teams finished 9-3 for the season. How does Mack vote in his final poll? Texas #15...A&M #22. Link maybe he realized the error of his ways Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sacosud Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 Hey Bass boy, tell me something. What happened in the first half in the Tech/Texas game when those scrubs you speak of were in the game. Complete annihilation. Texas actually got better when those guys were out. And I do think Reynolds injury cost OU the game, but I didnt use it as an excuse at the time, now am I looking at it now. OU is going to the Big 12 Championship game, and Texas isnt. Its that simple. BTW, I wouldnt expect you to know what Reynolds brought to the table to the OU defense. You would have to have a clue about defense in general to get it, and by your posts and articles, clearly that isnt the case. Man, I so enjoyed schooling your ass in IDP leagues. We are going to have to get in a league together next year. I miss kicking your ass and proving to you, you dont know crap about IDP. All of you guys seem silly really. The last time I checked injuries are part of the game and guess what, 2nd team is 2nd team for a reason. Are we really posting about Reynolds??? He got hurt and his backup came in the game!!! It happens A LOT. My opinion and maybe I'm old school, but OU lost to Texas and that pretty sums it up for me. I don't really care, however why should a team drop in any poll if they did not lose???? It's pretty silly to me. I again believe in the old school of thinking. I still love the Rose Bowl the most out of all the Bowls and I'm only 37. Look argue points and computers. I like the who beat who on a neutral field myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Ryan Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 All of you guys seem silly really. The last time I checked injuries are part of the game and guess what, 2nd team is 2nd team for a reason. Are we really posting about Reynolds??? He got hurt and his backup came in the game!!! It happens A LOT. My opinion and maybe I'm old school, but OU lost to Texas and that pretty sums it up for me. I don't really care, however why should a team drop in any poll if they did not lose???? It's pretty silly to me. I again believe in the old school of thinking. I still love the Rose Bowl the most out of all the Bowls and I'm only 37. Look argue points and computers. I like the who beat who on a neutral field myself. If it was just Texas beat OU, no one even me would have an argument. But its not that simple. Texas lost to tech, and that put this into a 3 way tie, with each team going 1-1 against the other. So this wasnt settled on the field. Texas beat OU, OU beat Tech, Tech beat Texas. all 3 1-1 and tied. So if you want to go to the field. In these games with each of these opponets, OU scored the most pts, gave up the least amount of points, and had the greatest margin of victory in its teams game. OU had a stronger schedule, was the only team to beat a ranked team on the road. This isnt about eliminating anyone, its about determing who should advance in a 3 way tie, and the coaches poll put OU ahead, and teh computers put OU ahead. Its that simple. While we are posting age, Im 36. Not sure what this has to do with anything. Under your line of thinking, Tech beat Texas, so Texas shouldnt be ranked ahead of Tech, but they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menudo Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 OU was beaten impressively 45-35 No doubt one of the greatest injustices of all time in college sports is occurring by allowing a team that was manhandled to jump the more dominant team. Why do we even play the games anymore. Just let the computers tell us who they think is better and let the bowl season start early. I gotta say Mike, what makes Sarge so annoying is that he is like a broken record, spewing the same crap over and over again. I hate to say it, but, you are stooping to his level. You're better than that Mike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menudo Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 LMAO, you give us me something to laugh at every day. At your expense yet again. Thank You Mike, I needed a laugh. Seriously, no one else is laughing about this ridiculous pissing contest the two of you are engaged in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.