Hey Pirate Fans

[SLAYER]

First off you need to get rid of your GM. for the first time in years the team is showing some signs of moving forward. They have some nice young pitchers and a good core of young hitters. then out of the blue they trade Mclouth to the Braves for three prospects and not top name prospects IMO

one step forward two back.

[Timmypg]

Wow, this team won't pay anyone. I realize they want to give McCutcheon a chance but this is awful. I bet we deal Sanchez soon too.

[Menudo]

First off you need to get rid of your GM. for the first time in years the team is showing some signs of moving forward. They have some nice young pitchers and a good core of young hitters. then out of the blue they trade Mclouth to the Braves for three prospects and not top name prospects IMO

one step forward two back.

 

Nope, I've got to disagree with you on this one. I think this was a good trade and the perfect time to do it. McLouth had an unbelievable first half of last year, since then, he has fallen back to what he is, which is a good, not great outfielder. Keep in mind that most of the front office and ownership changed last year, so, we can't blame this crew for past mistakes. The Pirates aren't going to contend this year or next year, so, they are looking to build strong minor league depth, and get solid prospects. The Nady, Bay, & now McLouth deals are nothing like those we used to do, such as trading away Aramis Ramirez in a complete salary dump. They got 2 of the Braves top 10 prospects. One, Gorkys Hernandez (4th ranked), is a 21-year old outfielder hitting over .300 in AA. The other, Jeff Locke (7th ranked) is also extremely young, and though his numbers are not impressive thus far, he is thought of as a very high ceiling prospect. He is a lefty with a 93MPH fastball and reported good control prior to the early parts of this season. The 3rd guy they got is 25 year old Charlie Morton, who is absolutely tearing it up in AAA and will probably find his way into the Pirates rotation sometime soon. I love Nate McLouth, but, moving his now allows the long over-due promotion of Andrew McCutchen, who becomes our starting Center Fielder. McCutchen is (hopefully) one of our core players for the future, and his time to take over has been long over-due.

 

So, in the end, the Pirates traded a guy whose value was as high as it's ever going to be, at a position where they have one of their top prospects ready to come up. In doing so, they added much needed pitching depth and got a very solid high-ceiling prospect in Locke. They also picked up a solid young OF'er in Hernandez. If Hernandez can develop some power, this could turn out to be a phenomenal trade for the Bucs.

 

I love the move and think it is a continuation of the good things that this new management / ownership is doing. It certainly will make us worse this year, but, we weren't ready to contend anyway. Write it down, in 2011, the Pirates will be contenders in the NL Central. Two more years of patience will hopefully be worth the reward. Relax Pirates fans, we are finally on the right track.

[Menudo]

Wow, this team won't pay anyone. I realize they want to give McCutcheon a chance but this is awful. I bet we deal Sanchez soon too.

 

Actually, this wasn't about money. We actually had Nate locked up for a few years and he wasn't making a lot of money. This was about clearing the way for McCutchen, adding minor league pitching depth, and getting younger.

[Timmypg]

I agree that we can't blame this GM & I love the Nady deal he made last year. I also realize they want to get McCutcheon in our lineup. However, we can't always be building for the future. In 2 years who knows where Maholm or Duke will be. If they keep up their good stats we'll trade them rather then pay them. I hope you are right and we do compete in 2 years but I doubt it.

[Menudo]

I agree that we can't blame this GM & I love the Nady deal he made last year. I also realize they want to get McCutcheon in our lineup. However, we can't always be building for the future. In 2 years who knows where Maholm or Duke will be. If they keep up their good stats we'll trade them rather then pay them. I hope you are right and we do compete in 2 years but I doubt it.

 

No, we can't always be building for the future, but, at this point, we HAVE to, because, the fact is, that right now, with or without Nate McLouth, this team doesn't contend and likely doesn't threaten .500 by the end of the year. In my opinion, I do think they are doing the right things.

[SLAYER]

I have to disagree with the above statements. I understand them wanting to get McCuthchen up but the trade seems?. They get another CF which is a clone of their other OF avg, speed and little pop and why if McCut is suppose to be so good. Morton will be a #5 SP at best. Locke I really no nothing about except what his numbers show. Until management decides to open the wallet this will happen again in two years instead of your contention in the Central.

[Menudo]

I have to disagree with the above statements. I understand them wanting to get McCuthchen up but the trade seems?. They get another CF which is a clone of their other OF avg, speed and little pop and why if McCut is suppose to be so good. Morton will be a #5 SP at best. Locke I really no nothing about except what his numbers show. Until management decides to open the wallet this will happen again in two years instead of your contention in the Central.

 

They are starting to open up their wallets. They used to not even draft the best player available because they knew they couldn't pay him. They promised that would change immediately, and it did with the drafting and paying of Alvarez. This move has absolutely NOTHING to do with money. We had McLouth tied up for a few more years and he wasn't making much money. They did this move because it gives them three prospects, two of which are young with a high ceiling. The Pirates are always going to be a small-market team, and in baseball, that means they have to be smart about when and where they spend their money. Previous ownership / management did an awful job of this, paying big contracts to the likes of Kevin Young & Derek Bell, to name a few. They also traded guys for nothing just to dump salary. We cannot blame this new group for things done prior to last year. They are coming in to try to correct a team who was run into the ground by the previous administration. They are doing this thing the right way, finally.

 

You are right that they get another CF that is similar to Nyjer Morgan & McCutchen, but, he is only 21 years old. Nyjer Morgan is about to turn 29 years old. Who knows, maybe the 21-year old can develop some power and become a more complete player. However, the value we got on this trade was phenomenal. Nate McLouth is perceived to be much better than he is because he had a great first half of last year. He has since fallen back, and this was the right time to trade him before the value got even lower.

Edited June 4, 2009 by Menudo

[Timmypg]

Two good articles on the trade. Both like the trade from both teams.

 

http://pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/news/art...sp&c_id=pit

http://keitholbermann.mlblogs.com/archives..._in_center.html

 

Interesting quote from an AL scout.

 

"I think it was a bold and intelligent move on the part of the Pirates and only time will tell, as with any trade, if they reaped the necessary return that a player such as Nate McLouth commands," one American League scout said shortly after the deal was announced. "But I give them all the credit in the world for doing it.

 

"The reason I say that is that, first of all, they moved Nate while he still has 'bloom on the rose' from last year's career year. I like him. I think he's a very good everyday big leaguer. But whether or not he can duplicate his Cinderella season he had last year? I doubt it."

 

Yes, I know these came from the Pirates website but the first article uses other teams scouts to rate the trade/players

[Menudo]

"I think it was a bold and intelligent move on the part of the Pirates"

 

See Slayer that explains it, only bold and intelligent people can see that this was a good move for the Pirates...........

[SLAYER]

See Slayer that explains it, only bold and intelligent people can see that this was a good move for the Pirates...........

Oh well that counts me out. hey if the Pirate fans like it then Congrats and the best of luck.

[Menudo]

Oh well that counts me out. hey if the Pirate fans like it then Congrats and the best of luck.

 

Actually, on the Pirates boards I would say it is split about 50/50 among those who like it and those who don't. As in any trade with young prospects, we won't know for a few years whether it was a good move or not.

[Timmypg]

Pirate players are openly angry about it.

[Menudo]

Pirate players are openly angry about it.

 

Of course they are, and I'd be upset if they weren't. Nate was a teammate and friend. He also was one of their best players and seemed to be really well liked. Players on the team now don't want to hear that they are building for the future. They also usually aren't very realistic about their 'actual' chances to compete this year. I don't blame the Pirates for being upset, but, I still think that management is doing the right thing. Time will tell.

[Skippy]

Oh well that counts me out. hey if the Pirate fans like it then Congrats and the best of luck.

I am not the best Pirate fan of late but while I can see building for the future, this team has done so little for so long that I just can't get on board with this move.

[Menudo]

I am not the best Pirate fan of late but while I can see building for the future, this team has done so little for so long that I just can't get on board with this move.

 

Remember Skip, it is new ownership / management that started at the beginning of last year. You are right to be skeptical of ANYTHING this lousy organization does, but, lets try not to blame this group for their predecessor's crimes. That is all that I'm saying.

[Timmypg]

Two more trades today.

 

I don't mind the Hinske trade although we only got 2 single A guys. Hinske wasn't going to hep us in the future so I'm ok with it.

 

We then dealt Morgan & Burnett for Milledge & Hanrahan. I understand that Milledge is only 23 & just last year the Nats gave up Church & Schneider for him but he's always hurt. Also, Burnett was pitching decent while Hanrahan stinks.

 

I'll listen & agree with Menudo about giving this team 2 years. However, when July 31st rolls around & Adam LaRoche is traded & Freddy Sanchez is traded (I believe they both will be) we will look a lot like a triple A team.

[Sleeping King]

Two more trades today.

 

I don't mind the Hinske trade although we only got 2 single A guys. Hinske wasn't going to hep us in the future so I'm ok with it.

 

We then dealt Morgan & Burnett for Milledge & Hanrahan. I understand that Milledge is only 23 & just last year the Nats gave up Church & Schneider for him but he's always hurt. Also, Burnett was pitching decent while Hanrahan stinks.

 

I'll listen & agree with Menudo about giving this team 2 years. However, when July 31st rolls around & Adam LaRoche is traded & Freddy Sanchez is traded (I believe they both will be) we will look a lot like a triple A team.

 

Try to look at the positives in life. The Bucs are 12 1/2 games up on the Nats.

[Menudo]

Two more trades today.

 

I don't mind the Hinske trade although we only got 2 single A guys. Hinske wasn't going to hep us in the future so I'm ok with it.

 

We then dealt Morgan & Burnett for Milledge & Hanrahan. I understand that Milledge is only 23 & just last year the Nats gave up Church & Schneider for him but he's always hurt. Also, Burnett was pitching decent while Hanrahan stinks.

 

I'll listen & agree with Menudo about giving this team 2 years. However, when July 31st rolls around & Adam LaRoche is traded & Freddy Sanchez is traded (I believe they both will be) we will look a lot like a triple A team.

 

Honestly, with what the Pirates are doing, these were no-brainer trades for them. In both cases, the other teams came to them. Nyjer Morgan is a decent left fielder, but, he was not part of the Pirates future. With McCutheon and the recently acquired Gorkys Hernandez, Morgan was going to be the odd man out. With Milledge, we are taking a big risk, but, with an extremely high ceiling. He is only 23, and has already shown he can play in the big leagues. He has the talent to be a superstar, most around baseball agree on that. His problem has been his off-field attitude and actions. We shall see how he handles this change and if he grows up. He could be a steal. Hanrahan certainly doesn't stink. He has great stuff, with a 97 mph fastball. He has stunk this year, that is for sure. However, he had a good year last year and was talented enough to start the season as the Nats closer. I really wish we could have given them someone back other than Burnett, as I really like how far he has come along.

 

As for the Hinske trade, there was no reason for the Pirates not to take that one. The Pirates outfield is one area that they have very good depth through the minors. Getting two A level players with relatively high ceilings for Hinske was the best we were going to do.

 

I've got no issue with these moves and if Milledge grows up, this could end up being an absolute steal.

[Skippy]

I'm with you on the last post Menudo.

 

I am going to really be watching the trading deadline before I say same old Pirates but I am worried.

[Menudo]

I'm with you on the last post Menudo.

 

I am going to really be watching the trading deadline before I say same old Pirates but I am worried.

 

Where I'm probably different than most Pirates fans, is that I want them to make more moves. Getting this thing turned around isn't going to be pretty, and it isn't going to make a lot of current players or fans happy. If they get proper value in return, I think guys like LaRoche, Wilson, & Sanchez should be moved. Sanchez would be the one that would be the toughest for me to move if I were the GM. I would need extremely good value there, as he is young enough that he could be part of our future in two-three years. Wilson & LaRoche are guys that I like, but, I think moving them for young value is the right move. Remember, this new group only took over at the beginning of last year, and I must say that the trades they've made thus far have brought solid value back. I'm optimistic about the future of this team for the first time in a LONG time.

[Timmypg]

I'm fine with trading LaRoche. Wilson I don't mind either but we have no backup SS for this year or next really. Sanchez is the best pure hitter we have & I don't understand why we can't/won't resign him. Also, Wilson would be cheap to keep if nobody else wants him.

[jaxfactor]

I knew it was coming. The Bucs are in their 4th of July freefall in the standings. They hover around .500 for half the season then tank. Same old same old. I hope you're right, Menudo. By the way, I watched Hanrahan pitch here in Jax when he played for the Suns(Dodgers AA team at the time). He was pretty damn good. He may just be having a bad year, hopefully.

[max]

I knew it was coming. The Bucs are in their 4th of July freefall in the standings. They hover around .500 for half the season then tank. Same old same old. I hope you're right, Menudo. By the way, I watched Hanrahan pitch here in Jax when he played for the Suns(Dodgers AA team at the time). He was pretty damn good. He may just be having a bad year, hopefully.

 

At least they aren't mathematically eliminated yet. That is .......................... some improvement.

[bushwacked]

The blog buzz up here in Seattle is that the M's may be on the verge trading the ever under-performing and recently demoted Yuniesky Betancourt in a packaged deal for Freddy Sanchez. Betancourt was a late scratch with the triple A team and its reported Pirate Scouts were in the seats at one of the M's games. :fingerscrossed:

Edited July 10, 2009 by bushwacked