Is there no such thing as a good white zin?

[BeeR]

Most anyone who knows anything about wine, and even many who don't, know 2 things about white zin:

 

1 - it's very popular, esp among younger women but also others w/a very "undeveloped palate"

 

2 - pretty much all wine snobs sneer at its mere mention

 

Frankly I hate the massive degree of pretentiousness and pompous BS that so often comes w/talking to people knowledgeable on wine. That said, as far as I can tell the sneer to white zin is mostly deserved...but I haven't had one in forever, and while not exactly clueless, make no claims to being a world's leading authority or wine.

 

So out of simple curiosity and thinking someone who has tried just about every known winery's wine in the world (or acts like it at least ) might know more on this - is there no such thing as a good white zin or are they all "bad"....

Edited January 23, 2010 by BeeR

[Kid Cid]

So here's the story behind the white zin. Back in the 1800's, Zinfandel was one of, if not the first grape planted in California. It grew very well in the hot, dry climate and was planted in a lot of areas. However, it grew out of favor with the local wine community as California moved to more established varietals such as Cabernet Sauvignon and Chardonnay. You see, they wanted to make wines with the same grapes as they French. At one point, it got so bad that acres of wonderful old Zin vines were being ripped up for new Chardonnay plantings all over the state.

 

Now some bright winemaker that didn't want to destroy his vineyards figured that he should try to do something with all this left over Zin juice. At this time, make it the late 70's or early 80's, it was mostly used for blending as opposed to making a pure varietal wine from it. The hot, dry climate in California leads to a Zin grape that has very concentrated color and flavor. This winemaker decided to take the juice from the grape and not let it site on the skins to get that dark color. Color (and certain flavors) in wine come from extended contact with the skins, stems and seeds of a grape. What they ended up with was a wine that was light pink in color, didn't have a lot of tannins or acidity (also from the skins), very fruit forward with a touch of sweetness.

 

So, this product was marketed towards the correct market segment for it to grow, women and those that don't know a lot about wine. They are easy drinking and appeal to those that don't like sharp tasting or heavy wines. It kind of blew up in the late 80's early 90's but then people started to realize the potential of a red varietal Zin and started making those instead. That's why there is less white Zin available today as more of the juice is being used to make these varietals instead of the "white" version.

 

Now with all that being said, the correct answer to your question is a resounding, it depends. Your palate is your palate. If you like a wine, then it is a good wine. I don't drink white Zins, I tend to find them too light and fruity for my tastes, but I am sure of two things. 1) there is at least one "good" one out there and 2) someone else likes it. If this is a wine that you find appealing for some reason, then the only thing to do is to try a bunch of them to find which one best suits your palate.

[Cameltosis]

If you're looking to try some I have a box of it my wifes ignorant but good hearted aunt bought us for Christmas. She knows we like wine and thought a box of white zin is way cooler than a bottle of stuff we actually drink. It is currently taking up space in my basement and soon to be on the curb as Monday is trash day.

[BeeR]

Thx for replies. KC I'm aware of the history but thx, and agree that people should drink what they like (just as people should hang art on the wall they like) and not care about the snoots. My point or question was whether there is some white zin made which the general wine community (I guess largely meaning the snoots) considers at least a respectable wine, since every time the topic comes up all I see are people making jokes and turning their noses in the air. Personally I'm not into it (although I like the "regular" ie red zin), again was just curiosity.

 

LO, thx; if for some reason I find myself wanting to buy one (who knows...), will keep it in mind. "Too sweet" is the main thing I recall from them, although I'm not dead set against a moderately sweet wine here and there.

[Chief Dick]

If you're looking to try some I have a box of it my wifes ignorant but good hearted aunt bought us for Christmas. She knows we like wine and thought a box of white zin is way cooler than a bottle of stuff we actually drink. It is currently taking up space in my basement and soon to be on the curb as Monday is trash day.

 

Marinate some boneless chicken breasts with it.

[twiley]

Not a big fan of White zin due to it's sweetness but there are some great Rosé out there that work well on a hot summer day.

[Bier Meister]

every wine has a purpose. white zin is for wine nebs, sangria, and reducing for desserts. would only offer it to a guest if he/she specifically requested some (prior to their visit).

 

 

but....friends don't let friends drink white zin.

Edited January 24, 2010 by Bier Meister

[Furd]

If you like wine, the answer is no.

[bpwallace49]

Beer . . . that is like trying to defend Natural Light Ice to beer lovers . . . . pretty tough.

 

A good wine is if you like it. It is all personal. White Zin will never win any awards or wine competitions, as it is very one-note and basic, but to each their own! if you like it, go for it . . but dont expect a "wine lover" to get all jazzed about a 2009 Beringer White Zin.

[detlef]

The short answer is, that there's no particular reason why one can't make a good white zin. There's a ton of fine roses made from grenache in this world and Zin isn't completely unlike that grape (or any other number of red grapes that make nice enough roses). I'm sure someone can and does make a fine white zin. The problem is that the prevailing style is void of acid and built for people who don't care about wine. Thus, they use the cheapest, over-cropped grapes they can find. Further, it doesn't make much sense to bother making a good one because of the stigma attached to white zin among those who care about wine.

 

For instance, I drink wines of all styles and don't uphold many of the prejudices against certain styles of wines or grapes that many of my colleagues do. I like Chardonnay with plenty of oak, for instance, which is down-right taboo among wine geeks. I also love roses and I also love wines with residual sugar (provided it's in balance). Now, typically I don't like roses with RS but wouldn't be averse to giving one the benefit of the doubt. However, none of my reps would ever think of bringing me a white zin to try because, given the rep, it would be a total hand-sell, not only for them, but for me to turn around and sell it to my customers. "No, you really need to try this White Zin". Why bother when there's plenty of great rose that people don't automatically think is crap.

 

So, it ends up being sort of a self-perpetuating situation.

[BS Miscreant]

the truth here lies in the idea that "good" is based upon what the "snoots" or "snobs" say is "good". A couple of years ago I was clearly looked down upon by my "wine snob" brother-in-law after suggesting that the depth and varieties of beers was approaching if not having already reached that of wines. He recently was singing the praises of the brewing processes and quality of flavors of certain beers, suggesting that you could certainly vary your beer taste based upopn your palate but to suggest that beers have the same complexities of wines is over-stating things a bit. This same brother-in-law once stated after sampling a wine that it was "fun". "Fun"... Need I say more?

Edited January 26, 2010 by BS Miscreant

[detlef]

the truth here lies in the idea that "good" is based upon what the "snoots" or "snobs" say is "good". A couple of years ago I was clearly looked down upon by my "wine snob" brother-in-law after suggesting that the depth and varieties of beers was approaching if not having already reached that of wines. He recently was singing the praises of the brewing processes and quality of flavors of certain beers, suggesting that you could certainly vary your beer taste based upopn your palate but to suggest that beers have the same complexities of wines is over-stating things a bit. This same brother-in-law once stated after sampling a wine that it was "fun". "Fun"... Need I say more?

Sorry, but your statement is essentially not true and seemingly based on nothing but the fact that you think your BIL is a poof. The truth actually here is that, in every industry and/or craft there is "good" and "not good". Nearly always, that distinction is more apparent to those on the inside of the industry and enthusiasts, but that doesn't mean it's not there for everyone. A glass of koolaid tastes fine, but not as nice as a glass of freshly squeezed juice. A Big Mac is fine, but not as good as a well-made hamburger made from scratch. Recognizing these differences does not make one a juice or burger snob.

 

I don't know jack about fishing. I'm sure the crappiest fishing pole and reel made would be fine enough for me. However, that doesn't mean that they're all the same and that anyone who insists otherwise is just a blow-hard.

 

So, the difference is actually quite measurable, not just something fabricated through snobbery. Of course, I've already actually answered the OP, so I won't repeat myself here.

Edited January 26, 2010 by detlef

[Azazello1313]

I don't think beer is as varied as wine. I'm not super knowledgeable, but my first reaction was...

 

What beer would you drink with stone crabs or shrimp?

 

From my limited knowledge, I would drink a dry, minerally kind of pinot grigio or something, but I couldn't think of a single beer that I'd drink with pretty much any seafood.

 

maybe a pils or a wit, or perhaps a lighter belgian ale with some crisp, bright hops.

[detlef]

I don't think beer is as varied as wine. I'm not super knowledgeable, but my first reaction was...

 

What beer would you drink with stone crabs or shrimp?

 

From my limited knowledge, I would drink a dry, minerally kind of pinot grigio or something, but I couldn't think of a single beer that I'd drink with pretty much any seafood.

I actually think that beer is way easier to pair with food than wine. In some respects, this might make it less interesting because there are less "a ha" moments. However, Azz nailed it in terms of the specific pairing you brought up.

Edited January 26, 2010 by detlef

[chester]

I actually think that beer is way easier to pair with food than wine. In some respects, this might make it less interesting because there are less "a ha" moments. However, Azz nailed it in terms of the specific pairing you brought up.

 

To preface, I love good beer as well as good wine.

But, I feel exactly the opposite. When I can pair a beer perfectly, I may get an 'a ha' moment. It seems easier with wine. (Though when you do hit that perfect pairing, it's magical - in either case)

[detlef]

To preface, I love good beer as well as good wine.

But, I feel exactly the opposite. When I can pair a beer perfectly, I may get an 'a ha' moment. It seems easier with wine. (Though when you do hit that perfect pairing, it's magical - in either case)

My point was that beer is pretty easy so most things go with most things. However, as a result, you don't "nail it" as often as you do with wine. In other words, with wine there's a bunch of cases where certain things just simply don't go at all and others where the pairing is perfect. With beer, you can pretty much open a Belgian Golden or Pale Ale and not really wish you hadn't. On the other hand, the pairing may not be inspired.

[policyvote]

What I love most about beer is that no beer is too cheap, too expensive, too rare, too plentiful, too dry, too sweet, too fruity, too acidic, too hoppy, or too malty to not pair perfectly with football or hockey.

 

Peace

Ty

[bpwallace49]

What I love most about beer is that no beer is too cheap, too expensive, too rare, too plentiful, too dry, too sweet, too fruity, too acidic, too hoppy, or too malty to not pair perfectly with football or hockey.

 

Well said!

 

Except for the fruity part . . . enjoy yer wine coolers . . . .

[BeeR]

The short answer is, that there's no particular reason why one can't make a good white zin. There's a ton of fine roses made from grenache in this world and Zin isn't completely unlike that grape (or any other number of red grapes that make nice enough roses). I'm sure someone can and does make a fine white zin. The problem is that the prevailing style is void of acid and built for people who don't care about wine. Thus, they use the cheapest, over-cropped grapes they can find. Further, it doesn't make much sense to bother making a good one because of the stigma attached to white zin among those who care about wine.

 

For instance, I drink wines of all styles and don't uphold many of the prejudices against certain styles of wines or grapes that many of my colleagues do. I like Chardonnay with plenty of oak, for instance, which is down-right taboo among wine geeks. I also love roses and I also love wines with residual sugar (provided it's in balance). Now, typically I don't like roses with RS but wouldn't be averse to giving one the benefit of the doubt. However, none of my reps would ever think of bringing me a white zin to try because, given the rep, it would be a total hand-sell, not only for them, but for me to turn around and sell it to my customers. "No, you really need to try this White Zin". Why bother when there's plenty of great rose that people don't automatically think is crap.

 

So, it ends up being sort of a self-perpetuating situation.

Well gotta keep room on the shelves for that scuppernog eh

 

Exactly the kind of post I was hoping for but frankly didn't expect. Thanks! Lost me on the oaky Chardonneys though - I thought if anything it was just the opposite (ie the "experts" liked the oakier stuff). Personally I don't care for Chardonneys and mostly because of the oakiness - maybe I'm more of an "expert" than I thought

 

Re. beer vs wine, agree w/you there too. I love good beer and am an admitted semi-snob, but there's been this growing trend in recent years to try and get all high n mighty and treat beers/beer tasting much the way wine has been done for so long - and frankly I find it kinda silly. Yeah beer (or should I say increased knowledge/improved tastes in beer) has come a long way in recent years, but cmon......I hear people talking about beer and beer tastings like wine and can't help but .

[detlef]

Well gotta keep room on the shelves for that scuppernog eh

 

Exactly the kind of post I was hoping for but frankly didn't expect. Thanks! Lost me on the oaky Chardonneys though - I thought if anything it was just the opposite (ie the "experts" liked the oakier stuff). Personally I don't care for Chardonneys and mostly because of the oakiness - maybe I'm more of an "expert" than I thought

 

Re. beer vs wine, agree w/you there too. I love good beer and am an admitted semi-snob, but there's been this growing trend in recent years to try and get all high n mighty and treat beers/beer tasting much the way wine has been done for so long - and frankly I find it kinda silly. Yeah beer (or should I say increased knowledge/improved tastes in beer) has come a long way in recent years, but cmon......I hear people talking about beer and beer tastings like wine and can't help but .

Just curious. Have you been to beer tastings and formed this opinion or are you just concerned that by virtue of their existence beer runs the risk of going the way of wine and all it's alleged snobbiness? I ask this because essentially every beer tasting I've been to has been barely indistinguishable from a party. There's a bunch of people, a bunch of beer, and everyone is drinking it. The only difference is that you're trying small tastes of a bunch of different things and thinking about what you do and don't like about each. Not unlike a chili cook-off in that respect.

 

The irony, actually is that pretty much every wine tasting I've gone to is the same way. Just a lot of people who dig wine, tasting wine and usually grubbing on whatever tasty treats they've put out on the buffet. Of course, there's always some dooosh in the group but how is that any different than anything else? Relate, for instance, a non-fantasy geek going to a bar to simply watch some football and having to endure guys going on and on about whether or not his kicker is going to score for him or whether that INT which was then fumbled should count as D/ST or against the player himself... Again, not all that different. In reality, just because some dude is waxing poetic about random flavors, should stop anyone else from just going to a wine tasting to decide what they like and don't like regardless of whether or not they "taste violets on the mid-palette". And so what if the guy next to you does tastes violets. He's likely just geeking out for his own fun, not trying to make anyone else look dumb. That's his trip.

 

I fear that much of this stereotyping is perpetuated by the large businesses that are trying to pass off poorly made beer or wine. There's no shortage of ad campaigns that paint anyone who cares about what they're drinking as a snob by invoking charachatures that may or may not even exist. Take Miller High Life and their current campaign, for instance. The reality is that thees companies are making a ton of money making a product from inferior ingredients and chemical additives and are trying to protect their market share by implying anyone who demands better is a snob. I can tell you who certainly is almost never a snob, the people who make fine wine and beers. They're typically the most down to earth people you'd ever meet. In the case of winemakers, they're basically farmers. In the case of brewers, they're usually chemists who like to party. They don't dress fancy and they're often just scraping by because their work is a labor of love.

 

It's the same doooshbags who are inclined to act like a dooosh regardless of what they're talking about, be it cars, stereos, what have you, that paint the whole scene in a poor light.

[BeeR]

2 for 2 def. ie great post.

 

 

Just curious. Have you been to beer tastings and formed this opinion or are you just concerned that by virtue of their existence beer runs the risk of going the way of wine and all it's alleged snobbiness?

"Yes."

 

 

 

I ask this because essentially every beer tasting I've been to has been barely indistinguishable from a party. There's a bunch of people, a bunch of beer, and everyone is drinking it. The only difference is that you're trying small tastes of a bunch of different things and thinking about what you do and don't like about each. Not unlike a chili cook-off in that respect.

I've had mixed experiences. The outdoor "beerfests" are mostly like that, but I've been to ones at pubs/etc and it's not that people weren't nice or friendly, but often there was that whole pretentious snooty BS thing going on. What I said was more of a general impression though.

 

 

The irony, actually is that pretty much every wine tasting I've gone to is the same way. Just a lot of people who dig wine, tasting wine and usually grubbing on whatever tasty treats they've put out on the buffet.

Again depends on the setup. The bigger outdoor things, yeah. The smaller ones, not so much. PS I am not referring to the winery owners or "pourers" - you're right, they are almost always cool. It's the average Joe Schleprock I'm talking about, these goobers all into the "check my superior palate" and "I am such a wine whiz" who like/dislike what they're supposed to which proves what experts they are, say the right wine expert things, blah blah. It's all so predictably lame it all but makes me ill. Of course a lot of people aren't like that....again my main point is that IMO more and more are, and esp so with the beer drinkers, many who appear to be desperately trying to prove, not unlike the wine dorks, how they're such beer experts and so they like the trendy beers and have the trendy opinions ad nauseum. The big jizzfest over Guinness years back was my first exposure to this. People acted like it was 10,000 times better than anything else. I tried it. I was underwhelmed. I've tried it various times since and it's been all over the map in terms of how good it was IMO. Good overall beer, sure, but I think mostly people drank it because it was the cool trendy thing to do :gag:

 

 

 

Relate, for instance, a non-fantasy geek going to a bar to simply watch some football and having to endure guys going on and on about whether or not his kicker is going to score for him or whether that INT which was then fumbled should count as D/ST or against the player himself... Again, not all that different.

No, sorry, completely different. FF knowledge doesn't necessarily equate to NFL knowledge. Two diff things really. It would be more similar to compare someone who is into say an IDP dynasty league with 20 teams to someone in a redraft with 10 teams and the first one looks their nose down at the second one as being comparitively inferior knowledge-wise about FF.

 

I fear that much of this stereotyping is perpetuated by the large businesses that are trying to pass off poorly made beer or wine.

Interesting - I don't get that impression, but could be. I rarely listen to ads.

 

It's the same doooshbags who are inclined to act like a dooosh regardless of what they're talking about, be it cars, stereos, what have you, that paint the whole scene in a poor light.

In general, yeah, probably so. I just get the distinct impression that more and more people are getting more and more pretentious about it, showing what experts they are or how sophisticated their beer palate is......all the while, of course, trying to pretend like they're anything but. For ex: the "oh I love dark beers" bit - I swear that's from Chapter 1 of the Pompous Beer Drinkers Manifesto. God forbid you not like dark beers, you must be some novice dweeb. They also don't seem to get that how light or dark a beer is doesn't equate to how good of a beer it is.

 

(PS since I know some will misinterpret: no of course I am not saying everyone who likes dark beer is pompous. If you don't get the diff between that and what I just said, get someone to explain it to you)

[detlef]

2 for 2 def. ie great post.

 

"Yes."

 

 

I've had mixed experiences. The outdoor "beerfests" are mostly like that, but I've been to ones at pubs/etc and it's not that people weren't nice or friendly, but often there was that whole pretentious snooty BS thing going on. What I said was more of a general impression though.

 

Again depends on the setup. The bigger outdoor things, yeah. The smaller ones, not so much. PS I am not referring to the winery owners or "pourers" - you're right, they are almost always cool. It's the average Joe Schleprock I'm talking about, these goobers all into the "check my superior palate" and "I am such a wine whiz" who like/dislike what they're supposed to which proves what experts they are, say the right wine expert things, blah blah. It's all so predictably lame it all but makes me ill. Of course a lot of people aren't like that....again my main point is that IMO more and more are, and esp so with the beer drinkers, many who appear to be desperately trying to prove, not unlike the wine dorks, how they're such beer experts and so they like the trendy beers and have the trendy opinions ad nauseum. The big jizzfest over Guinness years back was my first exposure to this. People acted like it was 10,000 times better than anything else. I tried it. I was underwhelmed. I've tried it various times since and it's been all over the map in terms of how good it was IMO. Good overall beer, sure, but I think mostly people drank it because it was the cool trendy thing to do :gag:

 

 

No, sorry, completely different. FF knowledge doesn't necessarily equate to NFL knowledge. Two diff things really. It would be more similar to compare someone who is into say an IDP dynasty league with 20 teams to someone in a redraft with 10 teams and the first one looks their nose down at the second one as being comparitively inferior knowledge-wise about FF.

 

Interesting - I don't get that impression, but could be. I rarely listen to ads.

 

In general, yeah, probably so. I just get the distinct impression that more and more people are getting more and more pretentious about it, showing what experts they are or how sophisticated their beer palate is......all the while, of course, trying to pretend like they're anything but. For ex: the "oh I love dark beers" bit - I swear that's from Chapter 1 of the Pompous Beer Drinkers Manifesto. God forbid you not like dark beers, you must be some novice dweeb. They also don't seem to get that how light or dark a beer is doesn't equate to how good of a beer it is.

 

(PS since I know some will misinterpret: no of course I am not saying everyone who likes dark beer is pompous. If you don't get the diff between that and what I just said, get someone to explain it to you)

All of these are great answers, particularly the bit about IDP, 20-league geeks vs the dude who's in a smaller league with simpler rules because not all of his friends are abject geeks. The irony here, and it actually extends perfectly to the beer/wine snob deal is that the guy who's looking down his nose is actually doing so because he's a bigger geek than you. Imagine that. Getting crap because you're not a big enough geek. My point, however, had more to do with just wanting to watch the damned game, not get all worked up about random crap. In much the same way that someone may simply want to go to a wine tasting to enjoy some wine and see what they like and not get involved in some argument over some stat.

 

The funny thing about what most of your points regarding the beer/wine snob deal is that the guys you seem to be describing actually don't really understand it at all and are really only part of the way down the path of knowledge of either subject.

 

Take beer, we all start drinking the cheapest crap we can find because we're 16 and just want to get drunk. That is nearly always very light and flavorless. Then, if we're so inclined, we move on to bigger stuff which almost invariably means stout because it's such a revelation. Wow! Beer with flavor. Some guys never move on from there, but others then discover that there are, actually, lighter beers that also have flavor and end up actually realizing that there's a beer for every occasion and it doesn't always have to be thick and black to be real. And then, there's the notion that they also can't come to grips with the fact that certain people are into certain things, so they get all dogmatic about it. I spend more time studying beer than most and there are simply styles that I'm not into. I can appreciate what they are, but would just prefer not to drink them. It's the d-bag who can't understand that who's got the problem, not me.

 

It's really the same with wine, we all start off drinking bland, flavorless plonk and then some go straight to hyper-rich Aussie Shiraz and such because, like stout, it's a revelation of flavor. Then, many of us start looking for more finesse and also make their way back to whites. I see it a lot with the "I only drink reds" types. They've been lead to believe that real wine is red and whites are for sissies and neophytes. Just like the guy who's stuck in the, "it's gotta be stout" deal, they're stuck on lesson 1. Now, I can see preferring reds, even preferring big reds, but anyone who patently dismisses other styles, especially when those styles include wines recognized for centuries as the among the pinnacle of wine making, is a fool.

 

None the less, from what I can gather from your responses, it sounds like you know what you like, which puts you head and shoulders above most of the losers you're describing. I wouldn't let them get in the way of enjoying yourself or discovering more about either beer or wine, provided that holds any interest to you. That would be a shame.

Edited February 13, 2010 by detlef

[Kid Cid]

All of these are great answers, particularly the bit about IDP, 20-league geeks vs the dude who's in a smaller league with simpler rules because not all of his friends are abject geeks. The irony here, and it actually extends perfectly to the beer/wine snob deal is that the guy who's looking down his nose is actually doing so because he's a bigger geek than you. Imagine that. Getting crap because you're not a big enough geek. My point, however, had more to do with just wanting to watch the damned game, not get all worked up about random crap. In much the same way that someone may simply want to go to a wine tasting to enjoy some wine and see what they like and not get involved in some argument over some stat.

 

The funny thing about what most of your points regarding the beer/wine snob deal is that the guys you seem to be describing actually don't really understand it at all and are really only part of the way down the path of knowledge of either subject.

 

Take beer, we all start drinking the cheapest crap we can find because we're 16 and just want to get drunk. That is nearly always very light and flavorless. Then, if we're so inclined, we move on to bigger stuff which almost invariably means stout because it's such a revelation. Wow! Beer with flavor. Some guys never move on from there, but others then discover that there are, actually, lighter beers that also have flavor and end up actually realizing that there's a beer for every occasion and it doesn't always have to be thick and black to be real. And then, there's the notion that they also can't come to grips with the fact that certain people are into certain things, so they get all dogmatic about it. I spend more time studying beer than most and there are simply styles that I'm not into. I can appreciate what they are, but would just prefer not to drink them. It's the d-bag who can't understand that who's got the problem, not me.

 

It's really the same with wine, we all start off drinking bland, flavorless plonk and then some go straight to hyper-rich Aussie Shiraz and such because, like stout, it's a revelation of flavor. Then, many of us start looking for more finesse and also make their way back to whites. I see it a lot with the "I only drink reds" types. They've been lead to believe that real wine is red and whites are for sissies and neophytes. Just like the guy who's stuck in the, "it's gotta be stout" deal, they're stuck on lesson 1. Now, I can see preferring reds, even preferring big reds, but anyone who patently dismisses other styles, especially when those styles include wines recognized for centuries as the among the pinnacle of wine making, is a fool.

 

None the less, from what I can gather from your responses, it sounds like you know what you like, which puts you head and shoulders above most of the losers you're describing. I wouldn't let them get in the way of enjoying yourself or discovering more about either beer or wine, provided that holds any interest to you. That would be a shame.

When you're right, you're right and brother, are you ever right.

[BeeR]

3 for 3. ie very well said, again. Not too much to add, but FWIW

 

The irony here, and it actually extends perfectly to the beer/wine snob deal is that the guy who's looking down his nose is actually doing so because he's a bigger geek than you. Imagine that. Getting crap because you're not a big enough geek.

ha - well - partly. I think anyone doing it in a real outward way is doing so simply because they're insecure aholes, frankly. But let me add that I've experienced very few such people (more so online, but even then the exception) - again at least outwardly. Most of the snoots I've seen I think aren't so much trying to put others down as they are trying to show or prove to whoever (their friends, the world, and/or themselves) that they are more knowledgeable/sophisticated about this than the average guy as some kind of "social validation" (for lack of a better term offhand).....ie they love the idea of being a so-called expert to one degree or other as it gives them a "leg up" on the avg joe....and hey we all pretty much like that ego massage of being smarter than the avg person about one thing or other, so it's not so impossible to understand. I just wish people would like what they like objectively, ie not because it's the "cool" thing to like in a sheeple kinda way.

 

My point, however, had more to do with just wanting to watch the damned game, not get all worked up about random crap. In much the same way that someone may simply want to go to a wine tasting to enjoy some wine and see what they like and not get involved in some argument over some stat.

Got ya, thx for clarifying.

 

The funny thing about what most of your points regarding the beer/wine snob deal is that the guys you seem to be describing actually don't really understand it at all and are really only part of the way down the path of knowledge of either subject.

 

Take beer, we all start drinking the cheapest crap we can find because we're 16 and just want to get drunk. That is nearly always very light and flavorless. Then, if we're so inclined, we move on to bigger stuff which almost invariably means stout because it's such a revelation. Wow! Beer with flavor. Some guys never move on from there, but others then discover that there are, actually, lighter beers that also have flavor and end up actually realizing that there's a beer for every occasion and it doesn't always have to be thick and black to be real. And then, there's the notion that they also can't come to grips with the fact that certain people are into certain things, so they get all dogmatic about it. I spend more time studying beer than most and there are simply styles that I'm not into. I can appreciate what they are, but would just prefer not to drink them. It's the d-bag who can't understand that who's got the problem, not me.

EXACTLY, on all counts.

 

It's really the same with wine, we all start off drinking bland, flavorless plonk and then some go straight to hyper-rich Aussie Shiraz and such because, like stout, it's a revelation of flavor.

Hm - I don't get that impression, but again it's only my impression. Like with beer, it seems to me most start off drinking the cheap stuff, and largely because it's cheap, and people aer young and don't know the diff one way or other anyway. Also I think most start out with sweeter wines because it's a more familiar/easy to like taste (plus I'd bet most cheaper ones are sweeter anyway).

 

Then, many of us start looking for more finesse and also make their way back to whites. I see it a lot with the "I only drink reds" types. They've been lead to believe that real wine is red and whites are for sissies and neophytes. Just like the guy who's stuck in the, "it's gotta be stout" deal, they're stuck on lesson 1. Now, I can see preferring reds, even preferring big reds, but anyone who patently dismisses other styles, especially when those styles include wines recognized for centuries as the among the pinnacle of wine making, is a fool.

Ane one more time...exactly.

 

None the less, from what I can gather from your responses, it sounds like you know what you like, which puts you head and shoulders above most of the losers you're describing. I wouldn't let them get in the way of enjoying yourself or discovering more about either beer or wine, provided that holds any interest to you. That would be a shame.

They don't, but thanks. I know what I like but I also like to keep trying diff stuff and do like to try and learn what I can - even though I take much of it with a grain of salt. Mostly I try to stay objective as possible about whatever I'm trying and like or dislike it based only on its own merits, not how I think it's perceived or how much it cost or etc etc. I just wish everyone else would do the same.....but to each their own.

[detlef]

3 for 3. ie very well said, again. Not too much to add, but FWIW

 

 

ha - well - partly. I think anyone doing it in a real outward way is doing so simply because they're insecure aholes, frankly. But let me add that I've experienced very few such people (more so online, but even then the exception) - again at least outwardly. Most of the snoots I've seen I think aren't so much trying to put others down as they are trying to show or prove to whoever (their friends, the world, and/or themselves) that they are more knowledgeable/sophisticated about this than the average guy as some kind of "social validation" (for lack of a better term offhand).....ie they love the idea of being a so-called expert to one degree or other as it gives them a "leg up" on the avg joe....and hey we all pretty much like that ego massage of being smarter than the avg person about one thing or other, so it's not so impossible to understand. I just wish people would like what they like objectively, ie not because it's the "cool" thing to like in a sheeple kinda way.

 

 

Got ya, thx for clarifying.

 

EXACTLY, on all counts.

 

Hm - I don't get that impression, but again it's only my impression. Like with beer, it seems to me most start off drinking the cheap stuff, and largely because it's cheap, and people aer young and don't know the diff one way or other anyway. Also I think most start out with sweeter wines because it's a more familiar/easy to like taste (plus I'd bet most cheaper ones are sweeter anyway).

 

Ane one more time...exactly.

 

They don't, but thanks. I know what I like but I also like to keep trying diff stuff and do like to try and learn what I can - even though I take much of it with a grain of salt. Mostly I try to stay objective as possible about whatever I'm trying and like or dislike it based only on its own merits, not how I think it's perceived or how much it cost or etc etc. I just wish everyone else would do the same.....but to each their own.

When I was younger, I shared a house with a waiter I worked with, right down the street from the really cool restaurant we worked. Many nights after work, a bunch of us would end up back there pulling corks on some of the world's greatest wines because we could get them and we were all learning about them. Thing is, I used to be a bit concerned that knowing about them almost clouded our judgment of the wines themselves. After all, you can talk yourself into thinking anything is cool. "Ooh, this wine is made by one-legged monks who only harvest under full moons", etc.

 

At any rate, there was this old hippie dude who lived next door who'd certainly been around. At one point he was a big time drug dealer who got popped, spent some time in the can and was just putting his life together. None the less, he'd lived large for a few years and had his fair share of Dom, etc. He didn't know jack from any of these wines, but he'd tasted enough fine wines to know when it was good, even if he had no idea what it was. Whenever he was over and tasting with us, I always wanted to know which wine he thought was the best. Invariably, it really was the chight.

 

Not sure why I'm relating this, but it seemed appropriate.