Is there no such thing as a good white zin?

[BeeR]

Finally. That post sucked.

 

j/k. Yeah in fairness it can be hard to stay objective and we all have our biases, me right there w/the best (worst?) of em. Anyway here's my love-to-tell story: Some years back some friends were coming over and - like a lot of people then - they were caught up in the "vodka craze," and also like many trend hos insisted Grey Goose was "the" vodka. But OK fine, I bought some for when they came. We (mostly they) ended up drinking most of it and at one point I was out re-stocking and thought "f- all that coin for something I can't tell from the cheap stuff" - and so bought the cheap stuff. We're talking "Fred's Vodka" ie some $5.95 bottom line stuff. Again I figured wth, I rarely drink it, probably can't tell the diff, and if anyone is over and really wants vodka they'll get over it.

 

You might predict the rest......when I got home I decided to pour that in the Grey Goose bottle. More than one person who was over had some and oh, this is the greatest stuff blah blah....I'm amazed I kept a straight face (one time I think I did actually have to leave the room briefly).

 

PS your "I love reds" example was great too; another one that causes me shake my head, just like the dark beer one.

 

Anyway having said ALL that, again I'm all for learning and "developing the palate." But as you and others have said, the main thing is go for what you like and enjoy. I just think very often the diff's are overrated - but admit sometimes that might be partly my lack of "development" too. I do know I would love to do some blind tastings of both beer and wine w/the experts or esp the alleged ones, ie trend ho snoots. Every such taste test I've ever seen or read about almost always produces results very diff that what those people would expect (in fact the Grey Goose one always springs to mind).

Edited February 15, 2010 by BeeR

[bpwallace49]

I think you guys are starting to blur the line between personal preference versus objective criticism. I have a TON of members that "know" about wine, yet can barely name more than 3 wines outside of Napa Valley. They have very discerning palates WITHIN that areas, but tend to be woefully ignorant of the amazing juice outside of that area.

 

If people choose to say they only drink reds, more power to them . . . that means more quality white available for me. It is when people start lecturing you on what is a good wine versus a bad wine is when I start to laugh . . . wine is all very personal and in the eye of the beholder. I can taste a "100 point" wine and appreciate it, yet not prefer to drink it. Same with beers. I pair IPAs for specialty beer dinners all the time . . . but I dont personally prefer them.

 

The more advanced I get in my wine studies (Level 2 certified Sommelier by the Court of Master Sommelier's . . and studying for level three next year . . .woot.) the more I back off from ever judging people for their tastes. Drink whatever turns you on . . . . but if a member gives me a flavor profile he/she is looking for, then I can get all "wine geeky" on them . . . .

[detlef]

I think you guys are starting to blur the line between personal preference versus objective criticism. I have a TON of members that "know" about wine, yet can barely name more than 3 wines outside of Napa Valley. They have very discerning palates WITHIN that areas, but tend to be woefully ignorant of the amazing juice outside of that area.

 

If people choose to say they only drink reds, more power to them . . . that means more quality white available for me. It is when people start lecturing you on what is a good wine versus a bad wine is when I start to laugh . . . wine is all very personal and in the eye of the beholder. I can taste a "100 point" wine and appreciate it, yet not prefer to drink it. Same with beers. I pair IPAs for specialty beer dinners all the time . . . but I dont personally prefer them.

 

The more advanced I get in my wine studies (Level 2 certified Sommelier by the Court of Master Sommelier's . . and studying for level three next year . . .woot.) the more I back off from ever judging people for their tastes. Drink whatever turns you on . . . . but if a member gives me a flavor profile he/she is looking for, then I can get all "wine geeky" on them . . . .

I'm not implying that there's anything wrong with only drinking reds. Rather that I've never met anyone who truly knew wine who would say that. That it is about the most obvious give-away that someone is faking it. If, in fact, they're copping authority on the subject. That's all. I've met a ton of people who thought they knew wine or pretended to know wine. But, just knowing that Screaming Eagle is bad-ass doesn't mean you know wine, it means you read some, but not many articles in Wine Spectator. Either that or you roll in circles where everyone is tripping over themselves trying to one-up each other in predictable ways.

 

Again, this is not about people who tend to find themselves drinking one style or another but people who profess wine knowledge and then come into your restaurant, order seafood/pineapple green curry, ask you which, between the Cab and the Malbec, would go best and then shudder when you ask if they'd consider a white. If you do actually know wine, why would you pay good money for a plate of food and a glass of wine that have no chance in hell of going together? Again, it's your money and I'm not going to insist that someone order the right wine. Second I see the white suggestion is not happening, I'm right back to the reds. I'll bring dude what he wants, but if pretends to anyone that he knows jack about wine, he's doing them a disservice because he most certainly doesn't.

 

It is certainly no sin at all to not know much about something. The sin comes in when you act like you do but really don't.

Edited February 15, 2010 by detlef

[bpwallace49]

I'm not implying that there's anything wrong with only drinking reds. Rather that I've never met anyone who truly knew wine who would say that. That it is about the most obvious give-away that someone is faking it. If, in fact, they're copping authority on the subject. That's all. I've met a ton of people who thought they knew wine or pretended to know wine. But, just knowing that Screaming Eagle is bad-ass doesn't mean you know wine, it means you read some, but not many articles in Wine Spectator. Either that or you roll in circles where everyone is tripping over themselves trying to one-up each other in predictable ways.

 

Again, this is not about people who tend to find themselves drinking one style or another but people who profess wine knowledge and then come into your restaurant, order seafood/pineapple green curry, ask you which, between the Cab and the Malbec, would go best and then shudder when you ask if they'd consider a white. If you do actually know wine, why would you pay good money for a plate of food and a glass of wine that have no chance in hell of going together? Again, it's your money and I'm not going to insist that someone order the right wine. Second I see the white suggestion is not happening, I'm right back to the reds. I'll bring dude what he wants, but if pretends to anyone that he knows jack about wine, he's doing them a disservice because he most certainly doesn't.

 

It is certainly no sin at all to not know much about something. The sin comes in when you act like you do but really don't.

 

Detlef . . . If I have a member come in and order wine that doesnt "go" with their food, I dont decry their lack of knowledge. People drink what they like, and dont always like the "righ" answer that would best fit that flavor profile. In fact, what you said is getting dangerously close to "wine snobbery". Knowing about wine is not always synonymous with knowing about correct food pairings, and preference towards reds or whites sure isnt up to us as proprieters. I have a member that "says" he is sensitive to sulfites, and he insists that all domestic wine is overly "tainted" with sulfites, so he only orders European wine. While I may think he is incorrect in his assumption, the man is very, very knowledgable when it comes to old world wines, and can quote classifications in Italy with me step for step.

 

I am just making the distinction between appreciating wine, on its own merits and objectively, versus passing personal judgement on correct food/wine pairings. I was at a wine Education with Fred Dame, the first American to acheive the status of Master Sommelier, and after each session he STRESSED the fact that at the end of the day, people have their own developed (or under developed) palate, and to be jusgemental is to fall into a category or looking down on your customers. You can receommend the "correct" pairings according to YOUR suggestions, but at the end of the day the customer knows what he/she likes, and that is all that matters.

 

I agree with your last statement most of all . . . but as food /beverage professionals, we have to be careful to not fall into the same trap. How often have you walked away from a table thinking the guy was an idiot for what he ordered?

[detlef]

Detlef . . . If I have a member come in and order wine that doesnt "go" with their food, I dont decry their lack of knowledge. People drink what they like, and dont always like the "righ" answer that would best fit that flavor profile. In fact, what you said is getting dangerously close to "wine snobbery". Knowing about wine is not always synonymous with knowing about correct food pairings, and preference towards reds or whites sure isnt up to us as proprieters. I have a member that "says" he is sensitive to sulfites, and he insists that all domestic wine is overly "tainted" with sulfites, so he only orders European wine. While I may think he is incorrect in his assumption, the man is very, very knowledgable when it comes to old world wines, and can quote classifications in Italy with me step for step.

 

I am just making the distinction between appreciating wine, on its own merits and objectively, versus passing personal judgement on correct food/wine pairings. I was at a wine Education with Fred Dame, the first American to acheive the status of Master Sommelier, and after each session he STRESSED the fact that at the end of the day, people have their own developed (or under developed) palate, and to be jusgemental is to fall into a category or looking down on your customers. You can receommend the "correct" pairings according to YOUR suggestions, but at the end of the day the customer knows what he/she likes, and that is all that matters.

 

I agree with your last statement most of all . . . but as food /beverage professionals, we have to be careful to not fall into the same trap. How often have you walked away from a table thinking the guy was an idiot for what he ordered?

I think you're missing the point I'm making. I don't give people, especially customers, crap if they don't know wine. That doesn't mean that, within the constraints of a conversation such as this, I need to pretend that people know wine if they really don't. And I have never met a single person who actually knows wine that would categorically dismiss whites. Not knows the names of a few wines that they like. Not grabs a copy of the someone's list of the best wines and goes down to the store, but actually knows wines. I honestly don't think that person exists.

 

And again, there is absolutely nothing wrong with not liking white wines. There's absolutely nothing wrong with never drinking anything not made in Napa. There's also absolutely nothing wrong with ordering whatever wine you want to go with whatever dish you want and I have never, in my entire career ever implied otherwise to any customer. I do feel it is my professional obligation to at least suggest something that I think would make the best pairing, but that is it.

 

None the less. I still stand by my point and it's hardly something that I and I alone understand to be true, that, if a guy is coming off like an authority on wine and says something like, "I only drink reds", it's a very safe bet that dude is a poser. Because when guys say that, and I know you've heard it, they say it with purpose. That purpose chiefly being, "I drink real wine". Which, of course, is a BS statement.

 

Try this. Among colleagues who's opinion you value in terms of wine knowledge. Ask them if they've ever known anyone who they felt really knew wine. Not without limits but, you know what I mean. Really knew wine. Ask them if any of those people would ever say, "I only drink reds". Oh, and not knowing whether new world or old world wines have more or less sulfites is not even in the same league in terms of this.

Edited February 15, 2010 by detlef

[bpwallace49]

I think you're missing the point I'm making. I don't give people, especially customers, crap if they don't know wine. That doesn't mean that, within the constraints of a conversation such as this, I need to pretend that people know wine if they really don't. And I have never met a single person who actually knows wine that would categorically dismiss whites. Not knows the names of a few wines that they like. Not grabs a copy of the someone's list of the best wines and goes down to the store, but actually knows wines. I honestly don't think that person exists.

 

And again, there is absolutely nothing wrong with not liking white wines. There's absolutely nothing wrong with never drinking anything not made in Napa. There's also absolutely nothing wrong with ordering whatever wine you want to go with whatever dish you want and I have never, in my entire career ever implied otherwise to any customer. I do feel it is my professional obligation to at least suggest something that I think would make the best pairing, but that is it.

 

None the less. I still stand by my point and it's hardly something that I and I alone understand to be true, that, if a guy is coming off like an authority on wine and says something like, "I only drink reds", it's a very safe bet that dude is a poser. Because when guys say that, and I know you've heard it, they say it with purpose. That purpose chiefly being, "I drink real wine". Which, of course, is a BS statement.

 

I would agree. It seems like we are on the same page, and we ALL agree that when people put on airs about their wine/beer drinking it can rapidly get annoying. I find the more I do my "homework" for the level 3 test for Court of Master Sommeliers, the more I have yet to learn . . . The difference between a casual drinker, to someone that went on a wine-based vacation trip to a serious student of the craft are huge. It is truly an amazing subject to study . .

 

FWIW I was at the Rock Bottom Brewery in San Diego this last week, and had a GREAT espresso stout they make. Finished like a fine wine . . .

[bpwallace49]

I actually DO know someone that only drinks WHITES. He can appreciate reds for what they are, but only PREFERS to drink whites. People can know about wine, and still not prefer to drink every varietal under the sun . . .

[detlef]

I actually DO know someone that only drinks WHITES. He can appreciate reds for what they are, but only PREFERS to drink whites. People can know about wine, and still not prefer to drink every varietal under the sun . . .

FWIW, because I approach these things from a food perspective, I actually really prefer whites to reds in general because they're so much more versatile. There are whites that are big enough that you can drink them with nearly anything and you simply can't say the opposite about reds.

 

When we do things like 20 course tasting menus and people ask me to pick their wines. The first thing I say is, "I hope you like whites". Because, invariably, the first 12 courses are more white wine friendly and the last 3 are dessert. That leaves just a few dishes in which red would be the first choice.

 

None the less, to the point you made in general, I covered the "preferred" bit in my first statement. Nothing wrong with knowing what you like. And I'm pretty sure your friend wouldn't turn down a glass of Grand Cru Red Burg if it were offered.

[bpwallace49]

FWIW, because I approach these things from a food perspective, I actually really prefer whites to reds in general because they're so much more versatile. There are whites that are big enough that you can drink them with nearly anything and you simply can't say the opposite about reds.

 

When we do things like 20 course tasting menus and people ask me to pick their wines. The first thing I say is, "I hope you like whites". Because, invariably, the first 12 courses are more white wine friendly and the last 3 are dessert. That leaves just a few dishes in which red would be the first choice.

 

None the less, to the point you made in general, I covered the "preferred" bit in my first statement. Nothing wrong with knowing what you like. And I'm pretty sure your friend wouldn't turn down a glass of Grand Cru Red Burg if it were offered.

 

I think this is where we are differing . . wine for wine's sake versus the food/wine pairing aspect. Both have great merits, but any sommelier worth his salt will tell you the best pairing is what YOU like to drink. Ther are no "right" and "wrong" answers, just different levels of personal preference . . .

[detlef]

I think this is where we are differing . . wine for wine's sake versus the food/wine pairing aspect. Both have great merits, but any sommelier worth his salt will tell you the best pairing is what YOU like to drink. Ther are no "right" and "wrong" answers, just different levels of personal preference . . .

I think it's professionally irresponsible to be so cavalier. Just ignoring simple rules in favor "there's no right or wrong" undoes the entire point of learning about these things.

 

Do you like the taste of wine when you just brushed your teeth? Can we at least mark off that "pairing"?

 

Do you not agree that certain pairings of ingredients simply do not belong? The famous asparagus, raisin sorbet that Ruth Reichel panned in an infamous NYT review? Good chefs know what things go well together and bad ones don't. That's why they go to school and/or spend years learning on the job.

 

So why stop at the plate? While I don't know any sommeliers "worth their salt" that would chastise a customer for wanting any combination they want, I would expect them to understand the basic rules of what goes with what. And there are rules. Rules that shouldn't be totally shunned in favor of "there's no wrong or right".

 

It's like the steak thing. Choosing well done is a choice and wanting your steak cooked in that matter is a manner of personal choice. But you are choosing to have your steak cooked poorly. There are things that happen to meat at various temps and those things are bad when a steak is cooked beyond a certain point, things that make the steak tough and dry. If you want your steak tough and dry, that's fine. But, in the big picture, that is not the "right" way.

 

It is the obligation of a cook to understand that and to only prepare it in that improper manner if the customer specifically requests it so. That's why default temp is usually med rare. Just like it's the obligation of a sommelier to understand what pairings do and don't make sense and to only bring the "wrong" wine when specifically instructed by the guest.

Edited February 16, 2010 by detlef

[Chief Dick]

I think it's professionally irresponsible to be so cavalier. Just ignoring simple rules in favor "there's no right or wrong" undoes the entire point of learning about these things.

 

Do you like the taste of wine when you just brushed your teeth? Can we at least mark off that "pairing"?

 

Do you not agree that certain pairings of ingredients simply do not belong? The famous asparagus, raisin sorbet that Ruth Reichel panned in an infamous NYT review? Good chefs know what things go well together and bad ones don't. That's why they go to school and/or spend years learning on the job.

 

So why stop at the plate? While I don't know any sommeliers "worth their salt" that would chastise a customer for wanting any combination they want, I would expect them to understand the basic rules of what goes with what. And there are rules. Rules that shouldn't be totally shunned in favor of "there's no wrong or right".

 

It's like the steak thing. Choosing well done is a choice and wanting your steak cooked in that matter is a manner of personal choice. But you are choosing to have your steak cooked poorly. There are things that happen to meat at various temps and those things are bad when a steak is cooked beyond a certain point, things that make the steak tough and dry. If you want your steak tough and dry, that's fine. But, in the big picture, that is not the "right" way.

 

It is the obligation of a cook to understand that and to only prepare it in that improper manner if the customer specifically requests it so. That's why default temp is usually med rare. Just like it's the obligation of a sommelier to understand what pairings do and don't make sense and to only bring the "wrong" wine when specifically instructed by the guest.

 

This is actually a very interesting philosophical discussion to follow. The "right" way to order a steak to you and another guy is completely different from a philosophical sense.

 

So each man's reality IS reality. To them and to them only. And another man's opinion of their reality is the root of the issue. What gives the other man the right to judge someone else's reality? THAT is the snobbery.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Chief Dick

[HowboutthemCowboys]

This is actually a very interesting philosophical discussion to follow. The "right" way to order a steak to you and another guy is completely different from a philosophical sense.

 

So each man's reality IS reality. To them and to them only. And another man's opinion of their reality is the root of the issue. What gives the other man the right to judge someone else's reality? THAT is the snobbery.

[detlef]

This is actually a very interesting philosophical discussion to follow. The "right" way to order a steak to you and another guy is completely different from a philosophical sense.

 

So each man's reality IS reality. To them and to them only. And another man's opinion of their reality is the root of the issue. What gives the other man the right to judge someone else's reality? THAT is the snobbery.

It could be your opinion that slopping paint on the wall and having globs and streaks running down the wall is the way to go. Who is anyone to tell you otherwise? However, because most people expect a painter to carefully apply coats in a manner that leaves a smooth wall, that is accepted as the "right" way to do it. Like requesting your steak well-done, you are free to tell the guy painting your walls to slop it on. And if he wants the job, he'll do it that way. However, for the sake of professional reliability, and for everyone else's sake, we need to know that painters know the "right" way to paint a wall. And, more importantly, that the default manner is, in fact, smooth.

 

The comparisons are endless.

 

Now, if you want to change the phrase from "right" to something else, that's fine. But doing so is really only to coddle the ego of those who want their work done in a manner that is contrary to the accepted standards of any profession. And every profession needs standards, mine is no exception. Not so that I can feel like an expert, but so that people don't have to make a point of making sure their meal is going to be cooked as the majority of diners and culinary professionals through the years agree is the proper manner. That, if they simply say, "I'll have the steak," that steak will come out neither raw or dried out.

 

It doesn't bother me that, if I hire some tradesman to come out and do something to my house, that his opinion on the best way to take care of something is quite likely better informed than mine. That's what he does.

 

What you guys are suggesting, however, is that we do away with standards just so nobody feels like less of an expert than the next guy. Should we go ahead and rekindle the Khmer Rouge while we're at it?

[Chief Dick]

What you guys are suggesting, however, is that we do away with standards just so nobody feels like less of an expert than the next guy. Should we go ahead and rekindle the Khmer Rouge while we're at it?

 

Actually no, that's not it at all. What I am suggesting is that both guys are right. (or correct, which is probably the better term so perch doesn't turn this into a political discussion)

Edited February 22, 2010 by Chief Dick

[detlef]

Actually no, that's not it at all. What I am suggesting is that both guys are right. (or correct, which is probably the better term so perch doesn't turn this into a political discussion)

First off, you do realize that essentially every discussion on the relative merits of anything could be derailed by this logic. That there's basically no point in arguing anything if all arguments can be trumped with, "each man's reality is reality". So, at some point, we have to accept standards and that is all I am trying to say. You will note, for instance, how many times I used quotes around "wrong" and "right". I would have thought that implied the relative nature of those statements. Perhaps not.

 

Regardless, again back to the steak. If you want to get fired as a grill cook, start sending out steaks well done as your default. If you want to be out of business in no-time, start sending out steaks well done as your default. What does this mean? It means that every professional and the vast majority of people think that well done is the wrong way to cook a steak. At some point, the scoreboard matters. Sure, for the guy who likes it that way, knock yourself out. He shouldn't be ashamed and that's not my point at all. In fact, I was only trying to relate it to Brian's professional obligation to use his knowledge.

 

The ultimate purpose of a sommelier is to help people find a nice bottle of wine. It's not about simply knowing every wine in the world and being able to spot them blind. Those are just tools and indicators of his ability to do his job well. That job being to pair the right wine with the right person and situation. If he punts and goes straight to, "there's no wrong or right" and doesn't at least try to guide someone into an appropriate pairing, he does not only them a disservice, but also the chef and the guy who made the wine.

 

For instance. Dude orders seared scallops with mango puree and a salad of shaved fennel dressed in lemon vin. Then he says, "I really like big Cabernets, can you pick one out for me?". Now, he's got the chance right there and then to say, "I'll go get that but, do you mind if I show you something else? I just tasted this wine the other day and I think it would really go well..." Say a Stellenboch Sauv Blanc or some such. Now, if dude says to piss off, then he brings him the Cabernet. Now, first off. I can tell you with absolute certainty that this guys opinion that the big cab is the way to go here was not born from the fact that he's tried a dish like that with a Sauv Blanc from South Africa and also with a Cab and he preferred the latter because it is just not possible. Fresh citrus and tannic reds are a match made in hell. It's like the toothpaste and wine thing. I know, I know, we could get everyone in the world to try this together and, if just one guy likes it, game over, because every man's reality is his reality. However, I don't have the luxury of such theoretical arguments because I've got a bottom line to look at. And having people spending good money on both food and wine that the vast majority of people who would try them together would agree make each other taste like ass is bad for that bottom line.

 

Now, back to the guy with the cab. If you just say to yourself, "Dude wants a cab, who am I to say otherwise" and bring the Cab without even suggesting something else. Now you've got a guy thinking, "This wine sucks and I don't know what's wrong with these scallops." So, you've just screwed over the wine maker and the cook. What's wrong with those scallops is that they taste like metal. In fact, everything tastes like metal because you're mixing fresh citrus and tannic reds. On the other hand, if you would have mentioned an alternative and he declined, perhaps he'll understand that you were trying to save him from this decision and understand that he choose poorly. That, perhaps next time he'll let you bring what you think works.

 

Say you were a flooring salesman. You know all the products, all the colors, all the materials. Somebody comes in and says they're looking for flooring for a particular project but say that, they really like wood. Let's just say that wood isn't really the best way to go in this case. Do you say, "Hey you know what works for you better than I do, let's go look at wood." Or do you suggest what they should be looking at. If you punt right there, you're really doing the customer a disservice. Sure, wood may not be a horrible solution but in 5 years when it starts to warp, dude's gonna be pissed. Pissed at you if you didn't try to get him into something that was better or pissed at himself for telling you, "Listen, it's my floor, don't tell me what is 'right'."

 

So, again, this whole 'right' and 'wrong' thing is not about me wanting to feel like an expert. When the shoe is on the other foot, I'm all ears. I spend all my time working with food and drink, so I'm going to let the guy who spends his time working with flooring give me his best thoughts. It's really not that hard. My opinion on the flooring is based on the fact that I saw a floor once that looked cool. His is based on what you're going to be doing on that floor, what it's being put on top of, etc. That doesn't make him a floor snob, that makes him a guy who's opinion on the matter is actually based on something besides random and incomplete data.

 

The guy's data that a big cab is the way to go with the scallops is most likely based on the fact that he drinks a ton of cabs, likes them, and tried one cheap Sauv Blanc once and thought it sucked. Either that, or it's what his wife drinks and he doesn't want to be a pussily. That's not a preference, that's just not knowing any better.

[bpwallace49]

Det . . . you are right in that entire post. But at the same time I am not going to mutter under my breath what an idiot the guy is for ordering the cab with the scallops. I am not going to look down on him for ordering it. I am happily going to go about my business after showing him an alternative and a recommendation. We come from different perspectives here wher you are open to the public, and I have a "captive" audience that I have built up "wine cred" with. if I was open to the public it would be much more difficult to get more acceptance of receommendations because I wouldnt have the same "wine chops" with a stranger.

 

IMO that is what the separation is. Wine snobs look down on others that dont have developed palates and only stick to one thing. Wine professionals lead the proverbial horse to the water, but then dont beat the horse for not drinking. I always offer a alternative and often a free sample. Hell, I put suggested wine pairings with each dish on the menu (we do a new menu every week) just to lead people to the best pairing.

 

But at the end of the day, if they make a wrong choice it is their choice to make and I am not going to rake them over the coals about it. IMO that is who wine snobbery begins, by assuming you know everything about wine and then arrogantly imposing your will on others. We are in the SERVICE business, and we need to provide the best service possible. Not talk down to our customers.

 

I am not implying that you do this at all Detlef, just weighing in on my opinion on "wine snobbery" in general. I think we have the exact sam opinion, but just different ways of expressing it.

[detlef]

Det . . . you are right in that entire post. But at the same time I am not going to mutter under my breath what an idiot the guy is for ordering the cab with the scallops. I am not going to look down on him for ordering it. I am happily going to go about my business after showing him an alternative and a recommendation. We come from different perspectives here wher you are open to the public, and I have a "captive" audience that I have built up "wine cred" with. if I was open to the public it would be much more difficult to get more acceptance of receommendations because I wouldnt have the same "wine chops" with a stranger.

 

IMO that is what the separation is. Wine snobs look down on others that dont have developed palates and only stick to one thing. Wine professionals lead the proverbial horse to the water, but then dont beat the horse for not drinking. I always offer a alternative and often a free sample. Hell, I put suggested wine pairings with each dish on the menu (we do a new menu every week) just to lead people to the best pairing.

 

But at the end of the day, if they make a wrong choice it is their choice to make and I am not going to rake them over the coals about it. IMO that is who wine snobbery begins, by assuming you know everything about wine and then arrogantly imposing your will on others. We are in the SERVICE business, and we need to provide the best service possible. Not talk down to our customers.

 

I am not implying that you do this at all Detlef, just weighing in on my opinion on "wine snobbery" in general. I think we have the exact sam opinion, but just different ways of expressing it.

For the record, I am only expressing it at all because we're having a discussion on a message board where, at least in my opinion, you don't have to tread lightly in terms of debating what is "right" and "wrong" and that's all I'm trying to establish. Not, to hold it over anyone, but to simply establish in this safe place, certain things that are accepted as correct and other things are not.

 

While this thread has taken on a life of it's own, it was started by someone who truly wanted to mine the opinions of people who knew more than he dd about the subject. While simply saying, "Hey, drink whatever you want and damned the snobs" would have been safe way to play it, it wouldn't have served the purpose the OP was getting at by asking the question to begin with. With that, he walks away having learned nothing. He was obviously at peace with the fact that some of us know more about wine than he does which is why he asked. So what's the big deal? That's the cool thing about this place, we all have our areas of expertise, so you can come here and find someone who can break it down for you.

 

So, in this bastion of debate, free from alienating customers, we should be able to argue the merits of our opinions, not always lean on the crutch of "there's no right or wrong." Here, if, as a wine professional, you realize that certain things just don't go well together, why can't you say so? Why do you have to beg to differ when, in fact, you don't actually differ at all but are simply reluctant to imply superiority on a subject? Because you are superior on that subject. You're 2nd level sommelier. There's not a whole lot of you out there. That means you know more about wine than most people. I think that it is thus, safe to say, that your opinion, especially when it is shared by other colleagues of your stature in the industry merits more consideration than the average guy. And I'm nearly certain that if you sat down with those colleagues and made a list of wines that simply should not be paired with certain foods, you'd come up with a decent list. Wouldn't it be handy if people who didn't taste wine as part of their job were privy to that list? Or should we just ignore it because, "there's no right or wrong".

[BeeR]

Stop talking like I'm not in the room GD it.

 

Great discussion here, again thx all.

 

So to sum up:

 

- White zins aren't automatically bad, contrary to what the wannabe snooty dorks say

- That said, good luck finding a good one

- You should drink what you like (capt obvious to the rescue ) and tastes vary widely

- That said, there are at least some basic accepted norms or "rights" and 'wrongs" (for lack of a better way to put it offhand) w/wine and/or most stuff

- Pretentiousness gets old quickly and is for losers

Edited March 4, 2010 by BeeR

[bpwallace49]

Stop talking like I'm not in the room GD it.

 

Great discussion here, again thx all.

 

So to sum up:

 

- White zins aren't automatically bad, contrary to what the wannabe snooty dorks say

- That said, good luck finding a good one

- You should drink what you like (capt obvious to the rescue ) and tastes vary widely

- That said, there are at least some basic accepted norms or "rights" and 'wrongs" (for lack of a better way to put it offhand) w/wine and/or most stuff

- Pretentiousness gets old quickly and is for losers

 

Yes.

 

And I agree with everything Det has said on the subject, within the confines of our little online world. There are a lot of wines that (while you might like it) will HORRIBLY clash with the food you are eating. I have to deal with a lot of pretentiousness concerning wine because I run a private country club. Most of the time I despise my wine list becuase it isnt crafted to make me happy, or in some cases even compliment the food! It is crafted to fit the needs and desires of my membership . . which means I get a lot of tired standbys like Cakebreak, Silver oak and Jordan on my list.

 

IMO in general the American palatte for wine is almost pre-conditioned to think that huge, tannic red wines from napa are the pinnacle of perfection. They therefore ignore what their nose and tastebuds tell them, and go with accepted cultural standard without opening up their mind . . .

[BeeR]

Welcome to Lemmingland, oops I mean America. It's all about social posturing. Gotta like the cool stuff, say the right cool things to show you is smart, blah etc and puke.

[BeeR]

Hey was at a "wine party" the other day, had to tell ya the "theme" was zins and someone brought - you guessed it - a white zin (Sutter Home, surprise). lol - I actually tried a little towards the end of the night - partly for giggles, partly out of pity as it was open for some time and no one had touched it. Was about as bad as I expected. Guess I'm just a snob.

[detlef]

Hey was at a "wine party" the other day, had to tell ya the "theme" was zins and someone brought - you guessed it - a white zin (Sutter Home, surprise). lol - I actually tried a little towards the end of the night - partly for giggles, partly out of pity as it was open for some time and no one had touched it. Was about as bad as I expected. Guess I'm just a snob.

Thankfully it's been a while but, for the longest time we had to remind people they were ordering a red wine when they asked for a glass of Zinfandel. Either that or risk having it sent back. Puts you in an uncomfortable situation. The wrong person will get insulted if you confirm that they want a red wine but you don't want to waste wine.

[Bier Meister]

Stop talking like I'm not in the room GD it.

 

Great discussion here, again thx all.

 

So to sum up:

 

- White zins aren't automatically bad, contrary to what the wannabe snooty dorks say

 

every wine serves a purpose. there aren't many white zins i'd want to drink by themselves and only a few foods that pair well with them.

 

- That said, good luck finding a good one

 

yes

 

- You should drink what you like (capt obvious to the rescue ) and tastes vary widely

 

yes

 

- That said, there are at least some basic accepted norms or "rights" and 'wrongs" (for lack of a better way to put it offhand) w/wine and/or most stuff

 

yes...... at the very least

 

- Pretentiousness gets old quickly and is for losers

 

yes... but actions are telling of one's standards (ie: if someone is drinking white zin with other options available, there is a strong likelihood that their wine palette is not very evolved or they are not very experienced in the world of wine)

Edited March 10, 2010 by Bier Meister

[BeeR]

Agree on all counts BM.

 

This has been great discussion, but really my OP was just a simple curiosity if a good or even decent white zin existed. Sort of a needle in a haystack question I guess.

 

Thankfully it's been a while but, for the longest time we had to remind people they were ordering a red wine when they asked for a glass of Zinfandel. Either that or risk having it sent back. Puts you in an uncomfortable situation. The wrong person will get insulted if you confirm that they want a red wine but you don't want to waste wine.

A way to dodge might be to pretend you weren't sure if you heard them and go "did you say you wanted a white zin or red?" Something along those lines. That way they can confirm w/o losing face.

Edited March 10, 2010 by BeeR