Tebow

[rustycolts]

Ok brakes tapped.I did not think he would come out next year and set the world on fire.Just felt of the QBs in this years draft he will have the most productive career.He does throw some lame duck passes but he is the type of player that can be coached up.The guy does run like a mad man and I would be willing to bet that he could run over a few NFL caliber LBs maybe even Lewis.In any event I hope he makes it. The sporting world could use a few more team first type of players.

[HowboutthemCowboys]

I would be willing to bet that he could run over a few NFL caliber LBs maybe even Lewis.

[rustycolts]

Really if you think KP is a holier than thou moron, you haven't seen nothing yet. This is a cool place, just put your thick skin on and stick around for a few weeks it gets better(or worse, depending) Oh and stay out of the political discussions.

Wasn't sayin that about KP was referring to the majority of posters on another board.Sorry if it came across that way.

[rustycolts]

"There's a reason the spread option isn't run on the NFL level"

Wildcat?

[kpholmes]

"There's a reason the spread option isn't run on the NFL level"

Wildcat?

Not quite the same.

 

Spread option uses 3-5 WR sets to spread the defense out, and is essentially a mix of the spread offense and the wildcat. Equal threat of a run play or a pass play, much of it's success comes down to the QB's initial read of the defense after the snap is taken. This is the offense Tebow has run very well for the past few years, that has yet to be run successfully in the NFL.

Defenses are on a much higher level in the NFL and show all kinds of looks that negatively effect that QB's first read and break the play down. Coordinators are smarter, players are faster, and really it just has yet to be done.

 

I'm not discrediting the Wildcat by any means, as Ronnie Brown has done a fantastic job conducting it. But the Wildcat is a 90% running formation. They brought in Pat White to add more of a passing threat, and it had little success in it's first year.

 

Like I said - I'm by no means saying the Spread Option is impossible to run at the NFL level, I'm just saying it has yet to be done at caliber that would add significant value to Tebow's draft status. In addition to that, I can't imagine many successful offenses wanting to implement something complex like the spread, and struggling offenses are going to want to avoid complexities and stay with the basics to rebuild.

 

It was said earlier, and I couldn't agree more - Tim Tebow is a fantastic kid that was born to play football. He has the work ethic, the determination, the build, the fire and the intelligence to be a great football player, just maybe not in the NFL. But with the work ethic and determination this kid has, who knows what kind of player he could be 2-3 years down the road.

[bpwallace49]

Not quite the same.

 

Spread option uses 3-5 WR sets to spread the defense out, and is essentially a mix of the spread offense and the wildcat. Equal threat of a run play or a pass play, much of it's success comes down to the QB's initial read of the defense after the snap is taken. This is the offense Tebow has run very well for the past few years, that has yet to be run successfully in the NFL.

Defenses are on a much higher level in the NFL and show all kinds of looks that negatively effect that QB's first read and break the play down. Coordinators are smarter, players are faster, and really it just has yet to be done.

 

I'm not discrediting the Wildcat by any means, as Ronnie Brown has done a fantastic job conducting it. But the Wildcat is a 90% running formation. They brought in Pat White to add more of a passing threat, and it had little success in it's first year.

 

Like I said - I'm by no means saying the Spread Option is impossible to run at the NFL level, I'm just saying it has yet to be done at caliber that would add significant value to Tebow's draft status. In addition to that, I can't imagine many successful offenses wanting to implement something complex like the spread, and struggling offenses are going to want to avoid complexities and stay with the basics to rebuild.

 

It was said earlier, and I couldn't agree more - Tim Tebow is a fantastic kid that was born to play football. He has the work ethic, the determination, the build, the fire and the intelligence to be a great football player, just maybe not in the NFL. But with the work ethic and determination this kid has, who knows what kind of player he could be 2-3 years down the road.

 

 

Isnt the spread just another term for the "run and shoot" offense that made Warren Moon look great for the Houston Oilers back in the day?

[kpholmes]

Isnt the spread just another term for the "run and shoot" offense that made Warren Moon look great for the Houston Oilers back in the day?

From my understanding, the Run and Shoot is much more pass heavy and its flexibility lies in the WRs all utilizing option and choice routes, rather than the QB "optioning" to pass/keep/handoff. Warren Moon taking off and running was his ability and instinct (ala Michael Vick), not so much an integration of the offensive formation or game plan.

 

I could very well be mistaken though.

Edited February 27, 2010 by kpholmes

[Chavez]

Isnt the spread just another term for the "run and shoot" offense that made Warren Moon look great for the Houston Oilers back in the day?

The "spread" is what Mike Leach ran at OU and Texas Tech. It's essentially a 4-5 wide formation with the QB in the shotgun. The "pure" Mouse Davis run-and-shoot had the QB under center, 4 WRs, a single back, and the QB would take an angled drop. What Moon ran with Houston (their "Red Gun") used r&s principles but was run out of the shotgun. Mouse Davis actually was offensive coordinator for Det from 89 to I'm not sure when, but they ran a pure r&s and called it "the Silver Stretch."

 

So the Oilers' Red Gun was probably the link between the run and shoot and the spread, which are both passing-based offenses.

 

The spread option, on the other hand, spreads out the D and puts the QB in the gun, but uses that primarily to run, and then passes off play-action for the most part.

 

Similar theories in that they want to spread the defenses out, but they differ in modes of attack.

[bpwallace49]

I stand corrected! Thanks guys!

[rustycolts]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsS3nlGbqrE

Still say he is going to be able to run on some folks at the next level

Edited February 27, 2010 by rustycolts

[Jackass]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsS3nlGbqrE

Still say he is going to be able to run on some folks at the next level

 

Unfortunately, those skills aren't gonna do him much good when he's selling insurance in three years.

[kpholmes]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsS3nlGbqrE

Still say he is going to be able to run on some folks at the next level

 

I'm seeing LOTS of open field in this video... which is attributed to the scheme and the blocking.

He's got some finesse to his moves, that's for sure; lots of quickness and agility in his cuts and spins. He isn't taking many direct hits from defenders though, or dropping his shoulder and trucking.

 

Again, I'm not discrediting him. I'm just trying to paint a realistic picture of what he is and isn't, what he can and can't do.

Physically he has an awkward build. 6'3", 235 (weighed in 10 under his listed 245).

He looks like he should fall somewhere between a heavy WR (A T.O. or CJ2 at 6'3"/225) and a TE (Zach Miller/Greg Olsen at 6'5" 255). And he's about 25-30 LBs too heavy to play RB.

 

It seems to me that with his running ability, physical build, and notorious poor throwing mechanics - he should be open to transitioning to another position, like WR, rather than saying "I'm going to play quarterback, or not play in the NFL at all."

Hard to let go of the spotlight though.

Edited February 28, 2010 by kpholmes

[HowboutthemCowboys]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsS3nlGbqrE

Still say he is going to be able to run on some folks at the next level

I only watched a little.

I've got nothing against Tebow. You gotta remember though, that a QB running in the NFL is a little different than running against UK and Florida International. I'm gonna go ahead and guess that those guys from those 2 teams that he was making miss won't be drafted.

[rustycolts]

I only watched a little.

I've got nothing against Tebow. You gotta remember though, that a QB running in the NFL is a little different than running against UK and Florida International. I'm gonna go ahead and guess that those guys from those 2 teams that he was making miss won't be drafted.

Very true,but that can be said about any NFL prospect coming out of college they all have their gimme games.I still feel he will make it in the NFL and will have the most succsessful career of the QBs in this class(this isn't exactly the best class ever to come out)now it may be at another position who knows,but I doubt seriously he will be selling insurance in 3 years.I hope he does play QB there are some NFL coaches out there that think he can make it as a QB,Dungy for one.If he does completely flop I will come back on here and eat as much crow as you guys want to feed me.

[HowboutthemCowboys]

If he does completely flop I will come back on here and eat as much crow as you guys want to feed me.

No biggie.

[rustycolts]

Well at least there is one other person besides me who thinks he will make it at the next level

Gary Shelton, of the St. Petersburg Times, reports longtime NFL head coach Sam Wyche believes Florida QB Tim Tebow can be an elite quarterback at the NFL level. 'Would I draft him?' Wyche said. 'Absolutely. Sure. If he's not taken early, somebody is going to be called a genius for taking him wherever he goes. If this guy can't be a starting quarterback in the NFL, then I was in the wrong profession for a lot of years.' Wyche added Tebow has the smarts and accuracy to succeed at the next level.

Ok I'm done now thanks for listening.

Edited February 28, 2010 by rustycolts

[kpholmes]

Ok rustycolts, we understand that you think he will be great in the NFL. And you've mentioned a few things that he was able to do at the college level (highest passing proficiency, running past people, etc...)

 

But why will he be successful in the NFL? - is what we're looking for from you.

Otherwise you're just another Seahawks21, pushing your personal opinions on us as educational predictions, when you provide no facts. We all have favorite players we'd love to see be successful in the NFL; What (hopefully) sets forums like this apart from UFL fan forums, is that rather than drool over Tebow and talk about how we can't wait for him to prove everyone wrong - we talk about the X's and O's, the systems, and the variables and why we think he'll pan out where.

 

How is his physical build going to affect his play at QB? He weighs in 3" and 30 LBs heavier than Drew Brees, and 2" and 5 LBs lighter than Big Ben. Where does that leave him?

What kind of system is he going to need to be successful in? Is he going to adjust to playing under center like Flacco, or struggle like Alex Smith?

What kind of QB is he going to have to play behind? If he plays QB at all?

 

Like I said, I'm not trying to criticize you by any means because we all have favorite players we want to succeed and have hunches about..

But what will he need in the NFL to play at an elite level? Think Mike Mayock.

[polksalet]

Tebow is a latter day Bucky RIchardson. Bucky was the greatest college QB I ever watched until Tebow.

[rustycolts]

Ok rustycolts, we understand that you think he will be great in the NFL. And you've mentioned a few things that he was able to do at the college level (highest passing proficiency, running past people, etc...)

 

But why will he be successful in the NFL? - is what we're looking for from you.

Otherwise you're just another Seahawks21, pushing your personal opinions on us as educational predictions, when you provide no facts. We all have favorite players we'd love to see be successful in the NFL; What (hopefully) sets forums like this apart from UFL fan forums, is that rather than drool over Tebow and talk about how we can't wait for him to prove everyone wrong - we talk about the X's and O's, the systems, and the variables and why we think he'll pan out where.

 

How is his physical build going to affect his play at QB? He weighs in 3" and 30 LBs heavier than Drew Brees, and 2" and 5 LBs lighter than Big Ben. Where does that leave him?

What kind of system is he going to need to be successful in? Is he going to adjust to playing under center like Flacco, or struggle like Alex Smith?

What kind of QB is he going to have to play behind? If he plays QB at all?

 

Like I said, I'm not trying to criticize you by any means because we all have favorite players we want to succeed and have hunches about..

But what will he need in the NFL to play at an elite level? Think Mike Mayock.

Not sure about the Seahawks21 thing but I will try to give my thoughts on the matter now keep in mind I have never claimed to be the sharpest tool in the shed.

 

Tebows offensive stats 9285 yards 88 TDs.

Tim Tebow is going to be a very good NFL quarterback.

Here's the most obvious reason why Tebow makes it in the NFL as a quarterback: He's a great football player, a great leader, a winner, he has a strong arm, he is driven, he's very coachable and he seems to be able to will himself to do special things. If he wants to be an NFL quarterback, and he does, he will become a very good one

those who question whether Tebow can make it in the NFL as a quarterback should just take a look around the league at some of the mediocre players playing the position right now.

 

If you're a Tampa Bay fan, who would you rather have as your quarterback? Brian Griese or Tim Tebow? Byron Leftwich or Tim Tebow? Luke McCown or Tim Tebow? Exactly. Tebow would be your guy.I know

Tampa has Freeman but you get my point.

 

In a league where Shaun Hill and Marc Bulger and Tavaris Jackson and Chad Pennington are starting quarterbacks, and where Brock Berlin is on a roster, don't try and tell me Tim Tebow isn't good enough to play the position

 

 

 

You don't need to hear about Tebow's stats, his great accuracy, or his level of play against fierce competition.

 

Because, naturally, according to anyone and everyone who talks about NCAA football, none of that matters for the next level, right?

 

That's where everyone is wrong.

 

We continue to overlook Tebow's strengths, merely because of a system he played in, or because he's not the "prototypical" version of what we want an NFL quarterback to be.

 

But if you can look past his flaws, there's a lot to like.

 

His leadership and passion for the game is not only unquestioned, but it's also something that cannot be taught. And a far as his toughness and durability being brought into question in the past year, well, that's just a joke.

 

The guy ran the ball 292 times for 2,947 yards and 57 touchdowns in a four-year career in the SEC. You can't be weak or soft and do that.

 

Saying the guy is soft for any reason is, at the best, flawed thinking, and it's simply another excuse to not like the guy.

 

He's built like a linebacker, and runs like a fullback on steroids.

 

He's got the speed and agility of a natural runner, although he's not quite fast or elusive enough to be an NFL tailback. But even with knowing that, there's still no way these "fullback" and "tight end" conversion arguments hold any weight.

 

The guy has as strong of an arm as any of the other quarterback prospects in this draft, save for Sam Bradford and Jimmy Clausen, and has shown the ability to perform at an elite level, in one way or another, in big games.

 

But why do scouts dismiss his strong arm and experience as a quarterback, and automatically assume because he is a gifted runner that he'd be able to learn a new position?

 

To be a fullback, he'd have to learn how to block at an elite level, when he doesn't even have any real experience doing so at an amateur level. To be a tight end, he'd have to learn to catch (and block, again) at a higher level, without having any true experience in doing that, either.

 

So, why throw a guy in a new position simply because he doesn't fit the mold of what society and some of the NFL scouts deem as "the perfect quarterback"?

 

He already has the natural tools, experience, and talent to be a quarterback at the next level. Now it's all about refining.

 

He needs to learn to take snaps under center, read defenses, make "all the throws", and his throwing motion needs work.

 

But throwing away all the talent he already has because he's not perfect, to play a different position he wouldn't be perfect for, well, that just doesn't make any sense.

 

Teams he could end up at and have the time to learn Minnesota (sit behind Brett Favre for a year before taking over); New England (Bill Belichick has publicly professed his love of Tebow, and Tom Brady won't be around forever); Philadelphia (Donovan McNabb won't be around for much longer, and Tebow gives them continuity with a mobile QB); Carolina no time to sit but couldn't do much worse than what they had.

I am sure if you think about it there are several more teams he could sit and learn Seattle being one I dont think Hasselbeck would have a problem mentoring him.

 

So I still say he will have an oppurtunity to play QB at the next level and knowing Tebow he will excell.

[Chief Dick]

Not sure about the Seahawks21 thing but I will try to give my thoughts on the matter now keep in mind I have never claimed to be the sharpest tool in the shed.

 

Tebows offensive stats 9285 yards 88 TDs.

Tim Tebow is going to be a very good NFL quarterback.

Here's the most obvious reason why Tebow makes it in the NFL as a quarterback: He's a great football player, a great leader, a winner, he has a strong arm, he is driven, he's very coachable and he seems to be able to will himself to do special things. If he wants to be an NFL quarterback, and he does, he will become a very good one

those who question whether Tebow can make it in the NFL as a quarterback should just take a look around the league at some of the mediocre players playing the position right now.

 

If you're a Tampa Bay fan, who would you rather have as your quarterback? Brian Griese or Tim Tebow? Byron Leftwich or Tim Tebow? Luke McCown or Tim Tebow? Exactly. Tebow would be your guy.I know

Tampa has Freeman but you get my point.

 

In a league where Shaun Hill and Marc Bulger and Tavaris Jackson and Chad Pennington are starting quarterbacks, and where Brock Berlin is on a roster, don't try and tell me Tim Tebow isn't good enough to play the position

 

 

 

You don't need to hear about Tebow's stats, his great accuracy, or his level of play against fierce competition.

 

Because, naturally, according to anyone and everyone who talks about NCAA football, none of that matters for the next level, right?

 

That's where everyone is wrong.

 

We continue to overlook Tebow's strengths, merely because of a system he played in, or because he's not the "prototypical" version of what we want an NFL quarterback to be.

 

But if you can look past his flaws, there's a lot to like.

 

His leadership and passion for the game is not only unquestioned, but it's also something that cannot be taught. And a far as his toughness and durability being brought into question in the past year, well, that's just a joke.

 

The guy ran the ball 292 times for 2,947 yards and 57 touchdowns in a four-year career in the SEC. You can't be weak or soft and do that.

 

Saying the guy is soft for any reason is, at the best, flawed thinking, and it's simply another excuse to not like the guy.

 

He's built like a linebacker, and runs like a fullback on steroids.

 

He's got the speed and agility of a natural runner, although he's not quite fast or elusive enough to be an NFL tailback. But even with knowing that, there's still no way these "fullback" and "tight end" conversion arguments hold any weight.

 

The guy has as strong of an arm as any of the other quarterback prospects in this draft, save for Sam Bradford and Jimmy Clausen, and has shown the ability to perform at an elite level, in one way or another, in big games.

 

But why do scouts dismiss his strong arm and experience as a quarterback, and automatically assume because he is a gifted runner that he'd be able to learn a new position?

 

To be a fullback, he'd have to learn how to block at an elite level, when he doesn't even have any real experience doing so at an amateur level. To be a tight end, he'd have to learn to catch (and block, again) at a higher level, without having any true experience in doing that, either.

 

So, why throw a guy in a new position simply because he doesn't fit the mold of what society and some of the NFL scouts deem as "the perfect quarterback"?

 

He already has the natural tools, experience, and talent to be a quarterback at the next level. Now it's all about refining.

 

He needs to learn to take snaps under center, read defenses, make "all the throws", and his throwing motion needs work.

 

But throwing away all the talent he already has because he's not perfect, to play a different position he wouldn't be perfect for, well, that just doesn't make any sense.

 

Teams he could end up at and have the time to learn Minnesota (sit behind Brett Favre for a year before taking over); New England (Bill Belichick has publicly professed his love of Tebow, and Tom Brady won't be around forever); Philadelphia (Donovan McNabb won't be around for much longer, and Tebow gives them continuity with a mobile QB); Carolina no time to sit but couldn't do much worse than what they had.

I am sure if you think about it there are several more teams he could sit and learn Seattle being one I dont think Hasselbeck would have a problem mentoring him.

 

So I still say he will have an oppurtunity to play QB at the next level and knowing Tebow he will excell.

 

Welcome to the huddle, Tim.

 

Even if you don't make it in the NFL, you still have a place here. Just ask for unta.

[detlef]

He already has the natural tools, experience, and talent to be a quarterback at the next level. Now it's all about refining.

 

He needs to learn to take snaps under center, read defenses, make "all the throws", and his throwing motion needs work.

That's a lot of "refining". Pretty much any of us here are about that much "refining" away from being able to perform open heart surgery.

[Big John]

Welcome to the huddle, Tim.

Name is Ed

[rustycolts]

By the way the only things I drool over is a big ol porterhouse steak,Emmy Lou Harris and oh yea my wife(just in case she reads this you never know)

[rustycolts]

 

That's a lot of "refining". Pretty much any of us here are about that much "refining" away from being able to perform open heart surgery.

Darn wish I had of known that I could have been a doctor instead of a produce manager for Publix.I guess you didn't get what I was trying to say.He is a very smart and determined guy and will pick these things up fairly easy other than the throwing motion.Anyway thanks again for listening I won't bore you guys with anymore Tebow talk,but if their is anyone else outhere that can back a brother up it would be appreciated.

[Seahawks21]

All the college numbers in the world don't mean poop. Ask Andre Ware or Jason White. All the running ability in the world doesn't mean poop. Being able to run over linebackers doesn't mean poop. Being a smart kid doesn't mean poop. Take every single thing he has ever done and throw it out the window. The mechanics don't even matter. There are two and only two things that every succssful NFL quarterback in this era have in common:

 

1. The ability to make reads

2. The ability to throw with pin-point accuracy.

 

Tebow is blessed by running an offense where his wide receivers become wide freakin' open. All he has to do is put the ball anywhere close to them and they are open enough to be able to make the play. He isn't asked to do anything more than that. That is nothing like putting balls, on time, into a two-foot by two-foot window to a place where only the WR can catch the ball. Not very many people on this planet were born with enough accuracy to be able to do it. Throwing accuracy and touch are innate abilities. They are not something that can be taught. Tebow simply wasn't born with enough potential to throw the ball accurately to ever become a successfl NFL quarterback.

 

Is he fast enough to ever play TE? That is the most prominent question towards the NFL future of Tim Tebow.