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What I've noticed about the NBA


detlef
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Moral of the story: They play D. Anyone who argues otherwise is just not watching.

 

I stopped following the NBA some time ago. At first, I was one of the guys that gave up on the league because of all the alleged thuggery. Well, actually, at the time, it was more than alleged. Over time, it simply had more to do with the fact that I simply didn't have time for yet another league to follow. You know, wife, business, making time to actually do things besides sitting on my ass in front of the TV...

 

I heard plenty of NBA fans loudly exclaim that the bad rap needed to go. That these guys were good kids and played sound ball. None the less, the hating continued by others. Others, mind you, who would preface their critique with, "I don't watch the NBA and this is why..." Odd, of course, that anyone could comment on the current state of things if they didn't, in fact watch it.

 

At any rate, because my latest restaurant has a bar with TVs, we've found that many times the best thing to put on is an NBA game, so, when it's slow, I watch a bit.

 

The main thing I've noticed is that the argument that nobody plays D is simply flat-out wrong. It is, at best ignorant, as in you don't actually watch and simply assume that's the case or, in worst case, moronic as in, you are actually watching guys knock down tough shots from everywhere on the court and thinking that's because the D sucks.

 

Certainly there are lapses from time to time, but certainly no more than the college game. The difference, it appears, is that these guys are so damned good at scoring, that they can make you pay for the slightest opening (or sometimes for no opening at all). Further, when guys can knock down 3s at the rate these guys can (which, if they're wide open is nearly automatic), means the D gets sucked out pretty far. And there's almost no big dumb guys who you can leave alone outside, because nearly everyone can nail the 20+ footer. So, all 5 guys on the floor need to be guarded pretty much anywhere on the floor.

 

That is all. Carry on.

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Clearly, you haven't watched the Warriors play this year... Or, for that matter, the last 2-3 years. :wacko:

 

As for the rest of the league, I think that's a large part of what separates the playoff teams from the ones who are out of it. Playoff teams play D pretty consistently... The other teams play D when they want to, which is not consistently enough to win more games than they lose. Of course, a large part of it also is talent. The Timberwolves, for example, could play the best defense in the league, and they probably wouldn't be anywhere close to a .500 team.

 

I'm not going to bag on the NBA like I have in the past... It's a decent product. I just prefer the college game, although it too has it's "issues."

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Clearly, you haven't watched the Warriors play this year... Or, for that matter, the last 2-3 years. :wacko:

 

:D Unfortunately, I watch them whenever I get the chance, which is rare as down here in So Cal, they are only on in their rare nationally televised games or when they play the Lakers or Clippers.

 

Warriors are a fun team to watch, Nelly getting back to his Run TMC days, but, as you noted, they play almost no defense, one of the primary reasons they will not contend for a while. They will put up points with the best of them, they just give up points even faster.

 

I am actually due to add to my Warriors paraphrenalia, I'm just hesitant to ever order a jersey as without a doubt, as soon as I do, the player will leave. Case in point was Baron Davis. I got spamshirts for my brother and nephews a few years back, they got about a season out of them before Baron pulled his switcharoo and went to the Clippers.

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:wacko: Unfortunately, I watch them whenever I get the chance, which is rare as down here in So Cal, they are only on in their rare nationally televised games or when they play the Lakers or Clippers.

 

Warriors are a fun team to watch, Nelly getting back to his Run TMC days, but, as you noted, they play almost no defense, one of the primary reasons they will not contend for a while. They will put up points with the best of them, they just give up points even faster.

 

I am actually due to add to my Warriors paraphrenalia, I'm just hesitant to ever order a jersey as without a doubt, as soon as I do, the player will leave. Case in point was Baron Davis. I got spamshirts for my brother and nephews a few years back, they got about a season out of them before Baron pulled his switcharoo and went to the Clippers.

I think you would be safe with a Steph Curry jersey... they love him here, and I don't see him going anwhere, any time soon. Ellis, or anybody else on the team, for that matter, will be gone long before Curry.

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Clearly, you haven't watched the Warriors play this year... Or, for that matter, the last 2-3 years. :wacko:

 

As for the rest of the league, I think that's a large part of what separates the playoff teams from the ones who are out of it. Playoff teams play D pretty consistently... The other teams play D when they want to, which is not consistently enough to win more games than they lose. Of course, a large part of it also is talent. The Timberwolves, for example, could play the best defense in the league, and they probably wouldn't be anywhere close to a .500 team.

 

I'm not going to bag on the NBA like I have in the past... It's a decent product. I just prefer the college game, although it too has it's "issues."

So, in other words, the good teams play solid basketball and the bad teams don't. Pretty much the case with any league?

 

On another note, it actually amazes me that teams still try to play the style the Warriors play now. Every time a team has tried it, they've failed. The Nuggets of old came because they at least sort of contended, but never finished the deal. When the dude came over from Loyola Marymount and tried to get his team more fit than any other and run every team out of the gym, he failed miserably. I mean miserably. The Suns came close not long ago, but again, came up short. Now we have the Warriors.

 

And, considering that many claim they don't watch the game because there's no D, it apparently doesn't necc. sell either.

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To be fair, the Warriors have a lack of athletic big men (well, healthy athletic big men), so for them to attemp to play a half court offensive style would hurt them even worse. The problem is, this lack of size, not just at the power positions but also in the guard position, also makes it very hard for them to stop anyone on the defensive end. Ellis and Curry are both just 6'3''. Most other teams have shooting guards in the 6'6'' range.

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My thing with the NBA has more to do with whether or not the regular season games mean anything, not whether or not they're playing defense. The Spurs lost to New Jersey last night... no excuse or explanation for it, other than that the game meant nothing to them, and possibly the fact that they were coming off a pretty big road win at Boston the night before (although I don't really buy that excuse, as the Boston win was not even close, and San Antonio was able to rest their key players for much of the second half). The Spurs are in the playoffs, either way, although you would think they would want to get out of the #8 spot (and not have to face L.A. in the first round). Maybe they just had an off-night, caught New Jersey on a good night, or whatever... I don't know.

 

I made a statement last year that the NBA has too many rich "thugs," and stood corrected when it was pointed out that there are probably far more thugs in the NFL than there are in the NBA. Fair enough. Still, I have a REALLY hard time getting excited about most regular-season NBA games. To me, there are just far too many guys who are unpredictable, in terms of whether or not they're going to give an effort, on any given night. I'm tired of hearing about the Stephen Jackson's, the Monte Ellis's, the Latrell Sprewell's, the Aundray Blatche's of the world... guys who make millions of dollars (I realize that some of the younger ones might not make millions... yet), but just decide when they want to play, and when they don't. Essentially, the Randy Moss's of the NBA. Sorry, but that crap leaves a bad taste in my mouth, regardless of what sport we're talking about.

 

I'll watch the playoffs, and I even occasionally tune in for a regular-season game, if it looks to be a good matchup. I'm also in three fantasy basketball leagues, so if there's nothing else on, heck... I'll watch a few minutes of the Clippers-Wizards if it's on, and I've got nothing better to do. And, I still try to go to at least one NBA game each year... I still love the sport, both playing and watching it. But, despite being a die-hard basketball fan in general, my days as a die-hard NBA fan are long over. I just choose to watch when the games actually matter, when I know both teams are going to give an honest effort, night in and night out. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be the case until April-June, in most cases.

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Regarding the regular season games, could the same not be said of MLB, and probably also the NHL?

Maybe, to a certain degree. I honestly don't follow hockey close enough to say (I know... a guy from MN not following hockey... strange). As for baseball, I think the main difference is that, in most cases, there is a mutual respect between manager and player that says that the player will take a day off if needed. In the NBA, I've heard far too many stories where a coach asks a player to practice, or even to check in to a game, only to be told that the player doesn't feel like playing. The players decide when they want to play, and when they don't, regardless of what the coach says.

 

Obviously, that's not the case all of the time, and I'm just pointing out some of the extreme cases in the NBA. For every bad apple, there are probably twenty guys out doing fundraisers for charity on their days off. I also realize that baseball has a few exceptions to the rule, as well (Milton Bradley comes to mind), so conflicts between players/coaches do exist in all major sports. I just think it has become more prevalent in the NBA... Money contributes to that (the more people make, the more they feel they can do whatever the helI they want), as does the age of the players (they're getting younger and younger).

 

Of course, baseball players make more money than any other sport, so how much you make is only a small part of the equation. The other difference is that, in baseball, you can sit a player for a game, and not see much of a difference in the overall product that the team puts on the field. Managers platoon players, based on pitching matchups, and pitchers appear as little as once every five games, depending on the situation. You don't really have those situations in basketball... It's expected that you put your best players on the court, unless there is an injury. Granted, some of the veteran players take days off, but that is usually WITH the blessing of the coach... In fact, many times, it's the coach's idea to begin with. A young player flat out telling a coach that they're not going to play is quite a bit different. I think it's much more rare to see something like that in baseball, than in the NBA (at least I'm not hearing about it as much in MLB or the NHL, as I am in the NBA).

 

As far as the games being meaningless, the big difference is in how difficult it is to make the post-season. Baseball has the least amount of teams in the post-season, of all major sports. In the NBA, you just have to be average (or anywhere close to average, if you're in the Eastern Conference), to make the playoffs.

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Another example

 

:wacko:

 

Granted, I think that type of thing happens in the NFL all the time... Player is out, then spotted partying at a club later that night. It's a little bit different, though, when the player was out due to a stomache virus. Still, not that big of a deal... I just had to point it out, due to the timing of it. I actually think Turkoglu is a pretty dedicated guy... He's just in a bad situation, in Toronto, and when it's becoming more and more "acceptable" to pull this sort of stunt, this behavior rubs off on even the guys you wouldn't expect it to, eventually.

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Regarding the regular season games, could the same not be said of MLB, and probably also the NHL?

 

 

exactly, it happens, obviously more in sports with long regular seasons -

 

BUT we see it in the NFL every year, OAK won 5 games last year and I watched my Seahawks not even show up and get dummied by TB at home last year

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Maybe, to a certain degree. I honestly don't follow hockey close enough to say (I know... a guy from MN not following hockey... strange). As for baseball, I think the main difference is that, in most cases, there is a mutual respect between manager and player that says that the player will take a day off if needed. In the NBA, I've heard far too many stories where a coach asks a player to practice, or even to check in to a game, only to be told that the player doesn't feel like playing. The players decide when they want to play, and when they don't, regardless of what the coach says.

gopher we have discussed this before, but a few things.... NFL players are ina league of their own when it comes to the law and crime, and MLB are pretty much known to be the biggest a holes in sports........I don't think this is a fair point at all - plenty goes on in the clubhouse/locker room we never see, that being said NBA has no shortage of prima donnas, but they are also in the spotlight more than other sports and most conduct themselves pretty well

 

Obviously, that's not the case all of the time, and I'm just pointing out some of the extreme cases in the NBA. For every bad apple, there are probably twenty guys out doing fundraisers for charity on their days off. I also realize that baseball has a few exceptions to the rule, as well (Milton Bradley comes to mind), so conflicts between players/coaches do exist in all major sports. I just think it has become more prevalent in the NBA... Money contributes to that (the more people make, the more they feel they can do whatever the helI they want), as does the age of the players (they're getting younger and younger).

 

Of course, baseball players make more money than any other sport, so how much you make is only a small part of the equation. no they don't, NBA has the highest average salary by quite a bit The other difference is that, in baseball, you can sit a player for a game, and not see much of a difference in the overall product that the team puts on the field. Managers platoon players, based on pitching matchups, and pitchers appear as little as once every five games, depending on the situation. You don't really have those situations in basketball... It's expected that you put your best players on the court, unless there is an injury. Granted, some of the veteran players take days off, but that is usually WITH the blessing of the coach... In fact, many times, it's the coach's idea to begin with. A young player flat out telling a coach that they're not going to play is quite a bit different. I think it's much more rare to see something like that in baseball, than in the NBA (at least I'm not hearing about it as much in MLB or the NHL, as I am in the NBA).

 

As far as the games being meaningless, the big difference is in how difficult it is to make the post-season. Baseball has the least amount of teams in the post-season, of all major sports. In the NBA, you just have to be average (or anywhere close to average, if you're in the Eastern Conference), to make the playoffs.

 

- another factor is the whole bad boys era which was defined by hard-nosed defense, and they changed the rules because of it. No one wanted to see hand checking and guys getting decked going to the rack. Some teams like GSW and Phx run and gun, and obviously don't play a ton of defense - but like any other sport and mentioned above - the good teams play excellent defense.

 

- NBA is adifferent animal, 5 guys and the superstars dictate who wins more than any other sport - is it perfek? not at all. I used to be a hard core NBA guy and I still love it- if nothing for the ridiculous athleticism on display every night. These are the best overall athletes in the world doing incredible things and for the level of rock stardom many of them get - I think there is actually a lot of good apples in the league.

 

- Also, NBA stars are world-wide stars that no other sport can match (except Tiga Woods) and I think some of the negative criticism I hear is mostly from the older generation......which tends to lean more towards MLB and the NFL just sayin

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All I'm saying is that I have a hard time getting too into the NBA regular season. There are a lot of factors involved... the mentality of the younger generation of players (I'm getting paid, so I'll do what I want), the playoff structure (over half the league gets in), etc. I'm not saying "the NBA sucks" or that baseball, football, or any other sport is any better. I'm just saying that I watch the NBA casually during the regular season, and a little more hardcore during the playoffs. Hard for me to get much more into it than that, even though it's my favorite sport.

 

I was thinkiing about the argument that baseball and hockey are similar, in that there are just as many meaningless games. Here is the difference... Last year, for example, we had a one-game playoff in the AL Central, to determine who got to go on and face NY in the playoffs. The atmosphere for that one game was amazing. To think that one game could potentially change the outcome of the entire MLB playoffs was pretty intriguing. That would never happen in the NBA. Teams who have a shot at winning anything in the post-season know they are in the post-season, in most cases, by February or early March. In the rare instance where two teams play on the final night of the regular season, to determine who gets into the playoffs, it's between teams who are going to be lucky to see the second round. That's the difference. In baseball, the elite make the post-season. In the NBA, the elite, very good, sorta good, and mediocre teams make the playoffs.

 

So, there may be just as many "meaningless" games in baseball and hockey, but there are a lot more meaningful games towards the end of September, in baseball, than there are in the NBA, in March and April. Granted, there isn't a one-game playoff, every year, in baseball, but more often than not, there is at least one or two divisional races that go down to the final weekend. There is a lot more drama in those baseball pennant races than there is in waiting to find out who gets the #8 seed in the East, between Toronto and Chicago, for example.

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- another factor is the whole bad boys era which was defined by hard-nosed defense, and they changed the rules because of it. No one wanted to see hand checking and guys getting decked going to the rack. Some teams like GSW and Phx run and gun, and obviously don't play a ton of defense - but like any other sport and mentioned above - the good teams play excellent defense.

 

- NBA is adifferent animal, 5 guys and the superstars dictate who wins more than any other sport - is it perfek? not at all. I used to be a hard core NBA guy and I still love it- if nothing for the ridiculous athleticism on display every night. These are the best overall athletes in the world doing incredible things and for the level of rock stardom many of them get - I think there is actually a lot of good apples in the league.

 

- Also, NBA stars are world-wide stars that no other sport can match (except Tiga Woods) and I think some of the negative criticism I hear is mostly from the older generation......which tends to lean more towards MLB and the NFL just sayin

 

I agree with everything you said here, and you make some very good points.

 

...MLB are pretty much known to be the biggest a holes in sports...

 

This, I have a problem with. Says who? If you're going to call me out when I make gross generalizations (which I admit I have from time to time), I have to do the same here. There are a-holes who play baseball, a-holes who play football, and a-holes who play hoops (not to mention golf, hockey, or anything else). But, I'm not sure baseball players are any worse than the rest. In fact, I would argue that there are some MLB players that are more down-to-earth than anybody you'll find in the NBA. Impossible to prove, one way or the other, though, so I guess we'll just have to disagree. I just find the notion that MLB players are bigger dlcks than other pro sports figures to be laughable, honestly. :wacko:

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I agree with everything you said here, and you make some very good points.

 

 

 

This, I have a problem with. Says who? If you're going to call me out when I make gross generalizations (which I admit I have from time to time), I have to do the same here. There are a-holes who play baseball, a-holes who play football, and a-holes who play hoops (not to mention golf, hockey, or anything else). But, I'm not sure baseball players are any worse than the rest. In fact, I would argue that there are some MLB players that are more down-to-earth than anybody you'll find in the NBA. Impossible to prove, one way or the other, though, so I guess we'll just have to disagree. I just find the notion that MLB players are bigger dlcks than other pro sports figures to be laughable, honestly. :wacko:

 

agreed- a holes in every sport, perhaps a bit of a generalization. It just seems to me I always hear and read sportswriters rate baseball players as more unavailable and assholio- like than any other sport.

 

And I have seen some very respected writers make this point.

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To be fair, the Warriors have a lack of athletic big men (well, healthy athletic big men), so for them to attemp to play a half court offensive style would hurt them even worse. The problem is, this lack of size, not just at the power positions but also in the guard position, also makes it very hard for them to stop anyone on the defensive end. Ellis and Curry are both just 6'3''. Most other teams have shooting guards in the 6'6'' range.

Well, that and Curry is like 6'3" 120

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I agree with everything you said here, and you make some very good points.

 

 

 

This, I have a problem with. Says who? If you're going to call me out when I make gross generalizations (which I admit I have from time to time), I have to do the same here. There are a-holes who play baseball, a-holes who play football, and a-holes who play hoops (not to mention golf, hockey, or anything else). But, I'm not sure baseball players are any worse than the rest. In fact, I would argue that there are some MLB players that are more down-to-earth than anybody you'll find in the NBA. Impossible to prove, one way or the other, though, so I guess we'll just have to disagree. I just find the notion that MLB players are bigger dlcks than other pro sports figures to be laughable, honestly. :wacko:

 

 

agreed- a holes in every sport, perhaps a bit of a generalization. It just seems to me I always hear and read sportswriters rate baseball players as more unavailable and assholio- like than any other sport.

 

And I have seen some very respected writers make this point.

I've actually seen this as well. That is, seen this written. I can't really speak to how any of these guys are in person. That said, I would imagine that the assumption that baseball players are down to earth is the fact that they look more like us. They're neither 7 ft tall, nor are they built like a D-lineman. They're either about our size or slightly bigger, but nobody you would double take if you rolled up on them in the store. Well, that is, if they weren't who they are. I mean, if Jeter wasn't Jeter, he'd just be the dude who lives next door. Their athletic prowess is also less apparent. Like a golfer, you obviously have to be very gifted to do what they do, but it's not eye-popping jump out the gym or 300lb dude who can pick up cars and run really fast sort of stuff. So, we're not as freaked out by them and thus probably assume they're more like us.

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As a disclaimer, I haven;t watched much of the NBA for awhile now, but the reason I stopped wasn't the defense (or lack thereof) but the offense. I'm just not a fan of the star-driven, spread the floor, isolation offense. It's all dribble-drive, break you down, and penetrate the lane or pull up and shoot the jumpshot. Where's the ball movement? Where's the teamwork. I realize you paid millions for your star, and the dribble drive is a valuable weapon, no doubt, but I really felt that overall, offense in the NBA became very one dimensional.

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As a disclaimer, I haven;t watched much of the NBA for awhile now, but the reason I stopped wasn't the defense (or lack thereof) but the offense. I'm just not a fan of the star-driven, spread the floor, isolation offense. It's all dribble-drive, break you down, and penetrate the lane or pull up and shoot the jumpshot. Where's the ball movement? Where's the teamwork. I realize you paid millions for your star, and the dribble drive is a valuable weapon, no doubt, but I really felt that overall, offense in the NBA became very one dimensional.

 

If it works.........

 

For many years in the late 80's/early 90's, it was all about having a dominant center that could command the paint 9Ewing, Robinson, Olajuwon). Half court sets designed to get him the ball in the paint and let him do his thing.

 

Now there just aren't a lot of true centers that can work it like that. The current crop of top players are either 6'7'' freaks of nature that are blazing fast, can shoot the lights out and can drive with the best of them (James, Bryant, Wade) or are more of a power forward mold that is, generally, going to start off a little farther out of the paint before breaking their man down (Stoudemire, Howard, Bosh). Different offensive strategies for different molds of players.

 

When he is healthy, the Rockets use Yao Ming much more like the centers of the early 90's, though, Yao admittedly seems to have a bit better touch in passing and from the 12-15 foot range. Again, a team using what they have. In the example of the Warriors, they have a plethora of smaller, quicker sharpshooters. They focus on getting up and down the court as fast as possible and a lot of drive and dish.

 

Got to run to a meeting, but food for thought that the "pro style" adjusts as the dominant style of player adjusts.

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If it works.........

 

For many years in the late 80's/early 90's, it was all about having a dominant center that could command the paint 9Ewing, Robinson, Olajuwon). Half court sets designed to get him the ball in the paint and let him do his thing.

 

Now there just aren't a lot of true centers that can work it like that. The current crop of top players are either 6'7'' freaks of nature that are blazing fast, can shoot the lights out and can drive with the best of them (James, Bryant, Wade) or are more of a power forward mold that is, generally, going to start off a little farther out of the paint before breaking their man down (Stoudemire, Howard, Bosh). Different offensive strategies for different molds of players.

 

When he is healthy, the Rockets use Yao Ming much more like the centers of the early 90's, though, Yao admittedly seems to have a bit better touch in passing and from the 12-15 foot range. Again, a team using what they have. In the example of the Warriors, they have a plethora of smaller, quicker sharpshooters. They focus on getting up and down the court as fast as possible and a lot of drive and dish.

 

Got to run to a meeting, but food for thought that the "pro style" adjusts as the dominant style of player adjusts.

Maybe so, but somebody still has to get the ball to the center. When all that it takes to get into your offense is 1 screen, a pass, and a dribble drive, you end up with a lot of guys standing around watching.

 

There was a similar fascination with power forwards for a time, Barkley, Malone, Mason et all, where the offense would spread the court, isolate the defender and just back the guy into the basket. I'm not saying it's not an effective technique, just not so aesthetically pleasing.

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As a disclaimer, I haven;t watched much of the NBA for awhile now, but the reason I stopped wasn't the defense (or lack thereof) but the offense. I'm just not a fan of the star-driven, spread the floor, isolation offense. It's all dribble-drive, break you down, and penetrate the lane or pull up and shoot the jumpshot. Where's the ball movement? Where's the teamwork. I realize you paid millions for your star, and the dribble drive is a valuable weapon, no doubt, but I really felt that overall, offense in the NBA became very one dimensional.

 

well in the games I see, teams that don't move the ball well don't score. regardless of who their best scorer is.

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well in the games I see, teams that don't move the ball well don't score. regardless of who their best scorer is.

Well, you're blessed in getting to watch the fruit of the Carolina tree. :wacko:

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