Brentastic Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 Teachers!! No need to go after greedy bankers or businessmen. Nope, teachers are the culprit! I hate this country more every day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazinib1 Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 You should sing about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimC Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 You should sing about it. Are you saying we should go after hippies that play music and follow really bad economic theories? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazinib1 Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 Are you saying we should go after hippies that play music and follow really bad economic theories? No he should seriously sing about it. Don't tell me you havn't been invited to one of Brents singing events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikesVikes Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 (edited) I have have never heard of a campaign promise to bring down the teaching cartel. Why do politicians consider them evil after they're elected and not before? Brent, nice post. Edited February 18, 2011 by MikesVikes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiegie Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 Teachers!! No need to go after greedy bankers or businessmen. Nope, teachers are the culprit! I hate this country more every day. Finally a Brentastic post I agree with. (Although I don't hate our country, it just disappoints me sometimes.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimC Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 Finally a Brentastic post I agree with. (Although I don't hate our country, it just disappoints me sometimes.) You don't mind that these union people are living in an economic fantasyland? Nah, you probably don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpwallace49 Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 If public unions are an issue, then go after all of them equally. Walker is just going after the union that didnt endorse himand exempting others. that is as cowardly as they come. Comparable to certain organizations getting waivers from the Obama admin. The proposals by walker arent that outrageous, but I am still curious of why their ability to collectvely bargain is also being removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiegie Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 (edited) You don't mind that these union people are living in an economic fantasyland? Nah, you probably don't. You know who lives in a fantasy land? The people who think teachers are just raking in the money. http://www.payscale.com/best-colleges/degrees.asp Best Undergrad College Degrees By Salary Starting Median Pay Mid-Career Median Pay Petroleum Engineering $93,000 $157,000 Aerospace Engineering $59,400 $108,000 Chemical Engineering $64,800 $108,000 Electrical Engineering $60,800 $104,000 Nuclear Engineering $63,900 $104,000 Applied Mathematics $56,400 $101,000 Biomedical Engineering $54,800 $101,000 Physics $50,700 $99,600 Computer Engineering $61,200 $99,500 Economics $48,800 $97,800 Computer Science $56,200 $97,700 Industrial Engineering $58,200 $97,600 Mechanical Engineering $58,300 $97,400 Building Construction $52,900 $94,500 Materials Science & Engineering $59,400 $93,600 Civil Engineering $53,500 $93,400 Statistics $50,000 $92,900 Finance $47,500 $91,500 Software Engineering $56,700 $91,300 Management Information Systems $50,900 $90,300 Mathematics $46,400 $88,300 Government $41,500 $87,300 Information Systems $49,300 $87,100 Construction Management $50,400 $87,000 Environmental Engineering $51,000 $85,500 Electrical Engineering Technology $55,500 $85,300 Supply Chain Management $49,400 $84,500 Mechanical Engineering Technology $53,300 $84,300 Chemistry $42,400 $83,700 Computer Information Systems $48,300 $83,100 International Relations $42,400 $83,000 Molecular Biology $40,200 $82,900 Urban Planning $41,600 $82,800 Industrial Design $42,100 $82,300 Geology $44,600 $82,200 Biochemistry $39,800 $82,000 Political Science $40,100 $81,700 Industrial Technology $49,400 $81,500 Food Science $48,500 $81,100 Information Technology $49,600 $79,300 Architecture $41,900 $78,400 Telecommunications $40,000 $78,300 Film Production $36,100 $77,800 Accounting $44,600 $77,500 Marketing $38,600 $77,300 Occupational Health and Safety $52,300 $77,000 Civil Engineering Technology $48,100 $75,600 International Business $42,600 $73,700 Advertising $37,800 $73,200 History $38,500 $73,000 Philosophy $39,100 $72,900 Biology $38,400 $72,800 Microbiology $40,600 $72,600 American Studies $40,900 $72,500 Fashion Design $37,700 $72,200 Communications $38,200 $72,200 Environmental Science $41,600 $71,600 Global & International Studies $38,400 $71,400 Geography $39,600 $71,200 Business $41,100 $70,600 Public Administration $39,000 $70,600 Landscape Architecture $43,200 $70,300 Biotechnology $47,500 $70,100 Zoology $34,600 $68,800 Drama $40,700 $68,300 Nursing $52,700 $68,200 Health Sciences $38,300 $68,100 Radio & Television $39,200 $67,800 Hotel Management $37,900 $67,600 English $37,800 $67,500 Forestry $37,000 $67,200 Journalism $35,800 $66,600 Hospitality & Tourism $36,200 $65,800 Literature $37,500 $65,700 Public Health $37,800 $65,700 Liberal Arts $35,700 $63,900 Public Relations $35,700 $63,400 Anthropology $36,200 $62,900 Psychology $35,300 $62,500 Animal Science $34,600 $62,100 Sociology $36,600 $62,100 Human Resources $38,100 $61,900 Kinesiology $34,400 $61,600 French $39,600 $61,400 Multimedia & Web Design $40,100 $61,200 Photography $35,100 $61,200 Health Care Administration $37,700 $60,800 Organizational Management $41,500 $60,500 Fine Arts $35,400 $60,300 Humanities $38,600 $60,100 Sports Management $37,300 $59,800 Agriculture $42,300 $59,700 Theater $35,300 $59,600 Fashion Merchandising $35,000 $59,300 Medical Technology $43,800 $59,300 Exercise Science $32,800 $59,000 Spanish $37,100 $58,200 Criminal Justice $35,600 $58,000 Visual Communication $36,800 $57,700 Social Science $38,100 $57,200 Art History $39,400 $57,100 Music $36,700 $57,000 Graphic Design $35,400 $56,800 Nutrition $42,200 $56,700 Interior Design $34,400 $56,600 Interdisciplinary Studies $35,600 $55,700 Education $35,100 $54,900 Art $33,500 $54,800 Religious Studies $34,700 $54,400 Dietetics $40,400 $54,200 Special Education $36,000 $53,800 Recreation & Leisure Studies $33,300 $53,200 Theology $34,700 $51,300 Paralegal Studies/Law $35,100 $51,300 Horticulture $35,000 $50,800 Culinary Arts $35,900 $50,600 Athletic Training $32,800 $45,700 Social Work $31,800 $44,900 Elementary Education $31,600 $44,400 Child and Family Studies $29,500 $38,400 Edit: I do want to add a caveat: these salaries are for people who only have a bachelor's degree. Most teachers can get raises by getting a master's degree in education (which is perhaps the easiest master's degree in the world to get). Nevertheless, the point remains that it ain't teachers who are breaking the state's budgets. Edited February 18, 2011 by wiegie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caddyman Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 You know who lives in a fantasy land? The people who think teachers are just raking in the money.http://www.payscale.com/best-colleges/degrees.asp Edit: I do want to add a caveat: these salaries are for people who only have a bachelor's degree. Most teachers can get raises by getting a master's degree in education (which is perhaps the easiest master's degree in the world to get). Nevertheless, the point remains that it ain't teachers who are breaking the state's budgets. What does your list have to do with the state's budget? Please show me the same list with the amount of each person in a specific field that is employed by the state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimC Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 (edited) Nevertheless, the point remains that it ain't teachers who are breaking the state's budgets. No one said it is their salaries...it is their pension plans currently billions underwater. A quick glance of those making more on your list don't have their pensions and benefits funded by taxpayers to that extent. In the private sector, we have to fund our own pensions (as if most of us have that anymore) and pay for our own benefits. And I'm not going to mention how the time off they get since that has been beaten to death whereas the rest of the jobs on your list work 12 months a year. . Edited February 18, 2011 by TimC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caddyman Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 No one said it is their salaries...it is their pension plans currently billions underwater. A quick glance of those making more on your list don't have their pensions and benefits funded by taxpayers to that extent. In the private sector, we have to fund our own pensions (as if most of us have that anymore) and pay for our own benefits. And I'm not going to mention how the time off they get since that has been beaten to death whereas the rest of the jobs on your list work 12 months a year. . Exactly...and he educates our children? Scary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 No one said it is their salaries...it is their pension plans currently billions underwater. A quick glance of those making more on your list don't have their pensions and benefits funded by taxpayers to that extent. In the private sector, we have to fund our own pensions (as if most of us have that anymore) and pay for our own benefits. And I'm not going to mention how the time off they get since that has been beaten to death whereas the rest of the jobs on your list work 12 months a year. . You do know that people with pensions pay in to them, right? I actually oppose the whole concept of pensions and support their elimination for new hires right now but it's a similar situation to SS, changes will need to be done on a graduated slope of at least 20 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimC Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 You do know that people with pensions pay in to them, right? I actually oppose the whole concept of pensions and support their elimination for new hires right now but it's a similar situation to SS, changes will need to be done on a graduated slope of at least 20 years. I know...I used to have a pension until our bank was sold. I agree with you 100%, but it's got to start somewhere. No one wants it to start with them, of course. The present course is unsustainable. Unless these state employees think the good times are going to return forever...or we raise taxes to pay for them. You can't live in the fantasyland these teachers and professors have created for themselves forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiegie Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 No one said it is their salaries...it is their pension plans currently billions underwater. A quick glance of those making more on your list don't have their pensions and benefits funded by taxpayers to that extent. In the private sector, we have to fund our own pensions (as if most of us have that anymore) and pay for our own benefits. And I'm not going to mention how the time off they get since that has been beaten to death whereas the rest of the jobs on your list work 12 months a year. . You are correct that their salaries are at least partly low because they have good pensions/benefits. The government/taxpayers basically made them a promise that said, "we'll give you a low wage now but compensate you with good pensions in the future." Now the government/taxpayers seem to want to default on a debt that is owed when it comes time to pay. That's BS and you know it. You might want to look at hours worked per year to make a valid comparison rather than days "off". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 I know...I used to have a pension until our bank was sold. I agree with you 100%, but it's got to start somewhere. No one wants it to start with them, of course. The present course is unsustainable. Unless these state employees think the good times are going to return forever...or we raise taxes to pay for them. You can't live in the fantasyland these teachers and professors have created for themselves forever. I don't think Walker has taken the right approach at all and, IMO, he's going to lose in the long run. Much better to have approached the issue with a carrot as well as a stick. Reduced pension contributions in return for reduced pension obligations for people with xx years left, freeing pension payments from the worker for 401k-type systems, for instance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEC=UGA Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 You are correct that their salaries are at least partly low because they have good pensions/benefits. The government/taxpayers basically made them a promise that said, "we'll give you a low wage now but compensate you with good pensions in the future." Now the government/taxpayers seem to want to default on a debt that is owed when it comes time to pay. That's BS and you know it. You might want to look at hours worked per year to make a valid comparison rather than days "off". I used to live across the street from the Marietta Middle school. Teachers were arriving when I left for work and were gone when I got home from work. That is as of 2 & 1/2 years ago. Prior to that, I left for work and the parking lot was empty, I got home from work and the parking lot was empty. Unless they're working for 2 to 3 hours a day from home, they work the same hours as many other folks do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimC Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 (edited) You are correct that their salaries are at least partly low because they have good pensions/benefits. The government/taxpayers basically made them a promise that said, "we'll give you a low wage now but compensate you with good pensions in the future." Now the government/taxpayers seem to want to default on a debt that is owed when it comes time to pay. That's BS and you know it. You might want to look at hours worked per year to make a valid comparison rather than days "off". I agree it's BS. We should be supporting the teachers. Instead, we give state money for food stamps and welfare to the unemployed that decide to crank out a new baby every 18 months or get paid under the table and don't report it to stay in poverty or scam the Social Security disability payrolls or a million other things we should be going after instead of teachers. But hey, no one wants to deal with the poor in this country when they are the real problem we are so poor. Give 'em a hand up and not a hand out. Let them starve if they just want to sit around playing X-Box all day. We need to investigate every claim. But hey, the poor vote Democrat mainly so let's just cover it up since they know to put a checkmark next to the (D) on the ballot to keep that teet suckling rolling in. We need to pick on the teachers instead of the real cause. Let them starve already, for chrissakes. I'm sorry you poor don't want a job...you want the job you think you're entitled to. And teachers get off at 3:30...not to mention some snow days when it's a half inch on the ground and everyone else can get around but they don't want to expose the school buses to a lawsuit. :woot Edited February 18, 2011 by TimC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whomper Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 (edited) The teachers that I know that discuss this issue just feel that changing the rules of the game midstream puts them at a disadvantage. Teachers, cops and others in jobs where the pension at the end of the tunnel is the payoff, generally make squat in the early days but they have their eye on the prize. Halfway through the game the prize is changing. I see the flip side too of unsustainable pensions that are a burden on the State. this issue is a hot button in NJ as Christie is aggressively going after it. The whole thing is a mess Edited February 18, 2011 by whomper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 The teachers that I know that discuss this issue just feel that changing the rules of the game midstream puts them at a disadvantage. Teachers, cops and others in jobs where the pension at the end of the tunnel is the payoff, generally make squat in the early days but they have their eye on the prize. Halfway through the game the prize is changing. I see the flip side too of unsustainable pensions that are a burden on the State. this issue is a hot button in NJ as Christie is aggressively going after it. The whole thing is a mess Again, this can be addressed via a graduated scale over two decades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whomper Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 (edited) Again, this can be addressed via a graduated scale over two decades. I agree as far as new hires but what about the people deep into the game ? Edited February 18, 2011 by whomper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEC=UGA Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 I agree it's BS. We should be supporting the teachers. Instead, we give state money for food stamps and welfare to the unemployed that decide to crank out a new baby every 18 months or get paid under the table and don't report it to stay in poverty or scam the Social Security disability payrolls or a million other things we should be going after instead of teachers. But hey, no one wants to deal with the poor in this country when they are the real problem we are so poor. Give 'em a hand up and not a hand out. Let them starve if they just want to sit around playing X-Box all day. We need to investigate every claim. But hey, the poor vote Democrat mainly so let's just cover it up since they know to put a checkmark next to the (D) on the ballot to keep that teet suckling rolling in. We need to pick on the teachers instead of the real cause. Let them starve already, for chrissakes. I'm sorry you poor don't want a job...you want the job you think you're entitled to. And teachers get off at 3:30...not to mention some snow days when it's a half inch on the ground and everyone else can get around but they don't want to expose the school buses to a lawsuit. :woot If teachers did a better job at educating people... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 the root of the problem is described in this david brooks op-ed which I posted last year: Daniel DiSalvo, a political scientist at the City College of New York, has a superb survey of the problem in the new issue of National Affairs. DiSalvo notes that nationally, state and local workers earn on average $14 more per hour in wages and benefits than their private sector counterparts. A city like Buffalo has as many public workers as it did in 1950, even though it has lost half its population. These arrangements grew gradually. Through much of the 20th century, staunch liberals like Franklin Roosevelt opposed public sector unions. George Meany of the A.F.L.-C.I.O. argued that it is “impossible to bargain collectively with government.” Private sector managers have to compete in the marketplace, so they have an incentive to push back against union requests. Ideally, some balance is found between the needs of workers and companies. Government managers possess a monopoly on their services and have little incentive to resist union demands. It would only make them unpopular. In addition, public sector unions can use political power to increase demand for their product. DiSalvo notes that between 1989 and 2004, the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees was the biggest spender in American politics, giving $40 million to federal candidates. The largest impact is on low-turnout local elections. The California prison guard union recently sent a signal by spending $200,000 to defeat a state assemblyman who had tried to reduce costs. In states across the country, elected leaders raise state employee salaries in the fat years and then are careful to placate the unions by raising future pension benefits in the lean ones. Even if cost-conscious leaders are elected, they find their hands tied by pension commitments and employee contracts. The end result is sclerotic government. be sure to read the linked disalvo piece as well. together, they spell out very articulately why actions like walker's and christie's are so desperately needed. and to keep it in perspective, the measures really aren't that unreasobale or "draconian". from what I've read, they are keeping the pensions intact, they are just asking these teachers to pay slightly more into the fund out of their salary. it essentially amounts to a slight pay cut. the alternatives would seem to be either laying a bunch of the teachers off, keeping the broken system in place and screwing the quality of public education that much more; or let the states go bankrupt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 I agree as fire as new hires but what about the people deep into the game ? That's the point of graduating the change. If you have 20 years to go, your pension is much smaller but your contributions also shrink to nothing as time goes by. Those right on the end of their time would not be affected. Everyone in between would be on the graduated scale. Those with more than 20 years to go might get nothing but perhaps could get their contributions back over time in the form of increased wages. The mechanics of it can be discussed but the bottom line is that the system is not sustainable...........but you can't just pull the rug out from people who have paid in for their entire careers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikesVikes Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 (edited) I know...I used to have a pension until our bank was sold. I agree with you 100%, but it's got to start somewhere. No one wants it to start with them, of course. The present course is unsustainable. Unless these state employees think the good times are going to return forever...or we raise taxes to pay for them. You can't live in the fantasyland these teachers and professors have created for themselves forever. What makes you think that it hasn't "started" already? Edited February 18, 2011 by MikesVikes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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