Perchoutofwater Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 You know who lives in a fantasy land? The people who think teachers are just raking in the money.http://www.payscale.com/best-colleges/degrees.asp Edit: I do want to add a caveat: these salaries are for people who only have a bachelor's degree. Most teachers can get raises by getting a master's degree in education (which is perhaps the easiest master's degree in the world to get). Nevertheless, the point remains that it ain't teachers who are breaking the state's budgets. How many of those other professions only work 9 months out of the year? I'd also like to know total compensation versus just income, as most teachers have better benefits than your average guy working in the real world. I'd also not that My wife is a teacher and her salary is above the high end on the range, and has gotten a raise every year that is well above the rate of inflation. Teachers are important, particularly good ones. Having said that I think some tend to put them up on a pedestal. Are they any more important than the structural engineer that designs the bridge you drive over every day on the way to work, the electrician that wires your house, the biochemist that comes up with the next cure all, the IT guy that works on the equipment in air traffic control towers? Is a teacher's pay great? No. Is there pay bad particularly when you factor in the benefits and the fact that they only work 9 months out of the year? Hell no! Most people in most businesses have either had pay freezes, pay cuts, or been laid off. Why should teachers be immune? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazinib1 Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 And the dumbing down of America continues to march on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 That's the point of graduating the change. If you have 20 years to go, your pension is much smaller but your contributions also shrink to nothing as time goes by. Those right on the end of their time would not be affected. Everyone in between would be on the graduated scale. Those with more than 20 years to go might get nothing but perhaps could get their contributions back over time in the form of increased wages. The mechanics of it can be discussed but the bottom line is that the system is not sustainable...........but you can't just pull the rug out from people who have paid in for their entire careers. and nobody is doing that, as far as I can tell. they are not cutting benefits. they are asking their employees, going forward, to contribute a greater share into the pool. that certainly seems to create the "graduated change" you are talking about. it hits people who are retiring next year almost not at all (a couple percent of one year's salary)....it hits people who are retiring in 20 years 20 times as much. since I guess it's some kind of immutable law of politics that every policy has to shift the burden off of the baby boomers and onto the younger folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiegie Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 I used to live across the street from the Marietta Middle school. Teachers were arriving when I left for work and were gone when I got home from work. That is as of 2 & 1/2 years ago. Prior to that, I left for work and the parking lot was empty, I got home from work and the parking lot was empty. Unless they're working for 2 to 3 hours a day from home, they work the same hours as many other folks do. My mom is a teacher and she easily averages at least 2-3 hours of work at home for every day she is teaching. I doubt that she is the exception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpwallace49 Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 why actions like walker's and christie's are so desperately needed. and to keep it in perspective, the measures really aren't that unreasobale or "draconian". from what I've read, they are keeping the pensions intact, they are just asking these teachers to pay slightly more into the fund out of their salary. it essentially amounts to a slight pay cut. the alternatives would seem to be either laying a bunch of the teachers off, keeping the broken system in place and screwing the quality of public education that much more; or let the states go bankrupt. Then why isnt Walker going after all unions and singling out the teachers? He has exempted the unions that supported him, so his is playing the same kind of payback politics that Obama is going with certain business and organizations with the health care bill. If you want to pretend that you are all about doing the right thing fiscally, then do it. Dont cherry pick against political opponents. Second verse, same as the first . . .and nothing changes. Walkers suggestions are reasonable, but he sure looks like a worry wart for being very selective in who he applies this to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimC Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 (edited) Then why isnt Walker going after all unions and singling out the teachers? He has exempted the unions that supported him, so his is playing the same kind of payback politics that Obama is going with certain business and organizations with the health care bill. If you want to pretend that you are all about doing the right thing fiscally, then do it. Dont cherry pick against political opponents. Second verse, same as the first . . .and nothing changes. Walkers suggestions are reasonable, but he sure looks like a worry wart for being very selective in who he applies this to. Life is full of choices. They chose poorly. Oh well, they'll all be replaced by internet downloads in the not too near future. The internet isn't going to put out a fire anytime soon. Besides public emloyees shouldn't be covered by unions. These teachers should be fired for calling in "sick" and showing up to protest in the middle of a school year. Edited February 18, 2011 by TimC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiegie Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 Most people in most businesses have either had pay freezes, pay cuts, or been laid off. Why should teachers be immune? I don't think they should be immune. (And I'd also like to state for the record that I have had a pay freeze and that I am now paying a much greater share of my insurance than I used to. I'm not complaining as it was obvious that it was going to happen.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 That's the point of graduating the change. If you have 20 years to go, your pension is much smaller but your contributions also shrink to nothing as time goes by. Those right on the end of their time would not be affected. Everyone in between would be on the graduated scale. Those with more than 20 years to go might get nothing but perhaps could get their contributions back over time in the form of increased wages. The mechanics of it can be discussed but the bottom line is that the system is not sustainable...........but you can't just pull the rug out from people who have paid in for their entire careers. I've been saying for years we should do the same thing with SS. Gradually start increasing the age until it hits the average life expectancy rate for seniors. Eventually we could pay off it's deficit, and then pay a whole lot less. Then it will be more like it was originally intended to be, a safety net rather than a retirement fund. When SS was originally put forth you had to be 65 for full retirement and the average life expectancy was 63.6. Today for full retirement you have to be 67, but the average life expectancy is 78.3. So we went form not paying SS until 1.4 years after the average person died to paying SS 11.3 years prior the average person dying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Holy Roller Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 And teachers get off at 3:30...not to mention some snow days when it's a half inch on the ground and everyone else can get around but they don't want to expose the school buses to a lawsuit. :woot Easy with the bus comments. We lost a student last summer in a horrible bus accident that made national news. I have no problem with being cautious (here in Missouri we have to make up those lost days). Sorry so many of you have public schools that suck and from your observations have teachers that are not working as much as you. Perhaps you should have gone to college and become teachers. My contract time is from 8:10am to 3:40pm, for 183 days. Plus 9 days of "professional development" when there are no students in the building but the teachers meet. And then there are the extra duty activities such as the Chess Club that I help sponser where, for example, I will be gone Saturday to the state chess championships from 7am till around 10:30pm. And don't even ask me about the hours I put in while still coaching... I'm not saying these things to exonerate all teachers. We have a few that put in the minimum time alloted and do an average job. But by and large I am lucky to work in a district that has many, many dedicated people that look upon their job not as a ticket to an easy retirement but as a calling. You all have had both types of those teachers and probably can fondly recall those that helped make you the successes that you are now. This political charade is not about balancing a budget. Most of you know that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiegie Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 Life is full of choices. They chose poorly. so says the Cowboys fan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 Then why isnt Walker going after all unions and singling out the teachers? well, I agree with you that his plan should include police and firemen, and it's kinda gutless that it doesn't. but he's not "singling out teachers". the plan applies to ALL state employees except those involved in "public safety". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimC Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 We could solve all the budget problems by getting rid of the crap like buses and lunches. Make the parents bring their little demons to school and pack 'em a lunch. Why should my property taxes pay to ship these people around and feed them. Let's just focus on teaching them. I imagine that would free up a little money to help offset this mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 I don't think they should be immune. (And I'd also like to state for the record that I have had a pay freeze and that I am now paying a much greater share of my insurance than I used to. I'm not complaining as it was obvious that it was going to happen.) isn't that all they're really asking the public employees in wisconsin to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whomper Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 (edited) It isnt just pensions .Christie is looking to put into effect a cap on paid sick/vacation time. I believe the cap he is looking to impliment is 20 grand. So a person who accumulated vacation and sick days over their career and is expecting a payout of say 70 grand for example, now loses 50 of that. 20 top cops in Hackensack retired early and in NJ teacher retirements are up 20% from the norm because people are trying to get it in before some of these changes are signed into law. Hackensack had to float a 4 million dollar bond just to pay the 20 Cops that retired the sick and vacation time owed to them Edited February 18, 2011 by whomper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimC Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 (edited) so says the Cowboys fan How much do those old-school books cost that you force your students to pay for and then hope to get 1/10th on trade-in value. Biggest scam in college is this bull. You guys should spend the summer typing them up in a Word doc available for download. Plus, when you want to make a change because you realize the Elliott Wave Theory came true, they wouldn't have to buy another whole book because a paragraph changed. You should feel shame for still teaching like it's 1980. Edited February 18, 2011 by TimC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazinib1 Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 Let's just focus on teaching them. I imagine that would free up a little money to help offset this mess. We are content with other societies passing us in academics thats why. Again, the dumbing down of America marches on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpwallace49 Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 well, I agree with you that his plan should include police and firemen, and it's kinda gutless that it doesn't. but he's not "singling out teachers". the plan applies to ALL state employees except those involved in "public safety". True. But considering that when you say "non public safety" that means 95% teachers, it is really the same thing isnt it? And I am sure it is coincidence that the "public safety" unions supported him, so they are exempted? I live in IL where an ex police chief that tortured suspects into confessing still gets his pension. Policemen caught on tape beating people get suspended with full pay and benefits. Police pensions are just as toxic to the system, so why didnt Walker have the balls to do so across the board? Either public pensions are the debbil, or they arent. Picking and choosing your supports doesnt support the "I am just doing whats right for the budget and bravely fighting against entitlements" when he doesnt go after everyone equally. And considering his proposals are reasonable as hell, why NOT go across the board? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimC Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 (edited) Here's my proposals to save tax dollars for public schools: -no buses. -no lunches. -no books (available for download). -hawt teachers start stripping. -three separate classes...one for people that will never make it in life (babysitting classes), one for average people (current system), and one for smart people (Republican classes). -parents pay more in taxes for every kid they have. It was your choice to have the little thing. -get rid of at least half the admin. Principals don't really do anything anyway. Mine is just a start and should save a ton of money for your retirement and benefits. ETA: And sell Wisconsin and those other loser states to Canada already. Do we really need Michigan and Illinois and New York really? Edited February 18, 2011 by TimC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimC Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 Here Holy Roller, here's a dollar. Now let's go into the back room for a little me-time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duchess Jack Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 What does your list have to do with the state's budget? Please show me the same list with the amount of each person in a specific field that is employed by the state. I've got zero idea why he'd go so much trouble for somebody who - even if he could prove his point 100% - would come back with something including zero thought or effort that more or less belittles him. Perhaps you should start posting more facts and less bile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redrumjuice Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 Hey bp, would you please get off the selective union whiney crap? It's all you are crying about for two days now. Deal with reality. Gov needs to pull a reagan and FIRE every single one of those teachers, suspend the school year and start interviewing for the Next school year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 True. But considering that when you say "non public safety" that means 95% teachers, it is really the same thing isnt it? you'll have to back that statement up with some facts if you want me to believe it. hell, in a lot of places, teachers don't even make up more than half of the employees of the school district (example). so I really have a hard time believing that 95% of non-police and non-firefighter state employees are teachers. I am willing to bet it is actually less than half. but again, I do agree that this would have more teeth and more principle behind it if it applied to ALL state employees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpwallace49 Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 Hey bp, would you please get off the selective union whiney crap? It's all you are crying about for two days now. Deal with reality. Gov needs to pull a reagan and FIRE every single one of those teachers, suspend the school year and start interviewing for the Next school year. Shhh H8tank . . .. shhhh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazinib1 Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 Suspend the school year thereby holding all the students back a year? Yep...the dumbing down of America marches on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duchess Jack Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 Shhh H8tank . . .. shhhh. sounds romantic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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