bushwacked Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 What's a failed Soda? Pepsi One? Never been called that before. Yer not that bright and even less funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tosberg34 Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Yer very bright and even more funny. Thanks - I appreciate it. Sorry I can't return the favor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbpfan1231 Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 A fair question. It's not disrespectful. My answer. I don't trust school boards to do the right thing. I was on a hiring committee about 5 years ago when we were looking for a 6th grade teacher with a science background. We narrowed it down to two finalists, but one was head and shoulders above the other. Candidate A had eight years of experience in the Greenfield School District, held her master's, had a great science background, and knocked it out of the park with her interview. Candidate B was a new grad from UW-Whitewater, solid interview. All of us on the committee chose A. My principal informed all of us that the board would never approve A because she was too expensive. Her salary would have been in the neighborhood of $45,000. Candidate B would be starting at 28,000. He was right, the board refused candidate A. With our hands tied, we hired B. (Just so you know, B called in sick Thurs. and Fri. protesting in Madison). I have heard this stories like this time and again throughout Waukesha and Jefferson counties. Without union protection, boards will have unlimited power to impose their will. This truly is scary. It's not just salary and bennies either. Rules governing sick time carryover, prep time, and credit for licensure repayment would be fair game as well. As I illustrated in the prior example, many board members are not looking out for the students that their electorate are raising. I wish it were as easy for me to go somewhere where the grass is greener, but I love Wisconsin and have roots here. Every public district is in the same boat and I am a expensive and unlikely option (with that damn master's) were I to try and teach somewhere else in the state. When I started at a private grade school in Racine county I made 16,700 as a rookie and got a $900 stipend for health insurance, which I'm sure I blew on beer. So I think private school is out as well. I believe Walker is stripping power to make it easier for boards to cut teacher pensions and health insurance in successive budgets. He knows that he needs to cut even more down the road to balance that 3.6 billion in upcoming years. WEAC has stated that they will take his cuts this year. If Walker asks them to take ANY cut again in 2012 they won't and they will have the public in their corner because no one will forget this mess. This way he can circumvent WEAC and give school districts less state aid. This will leave the burden on the school boards to balance the books. I'm not a fan of everything the union does, but to me they are a necessary evil. Thank you for the thanks, Your example happens all the time in the private sector also. You can't always hire the most expensive best candidate for the job. Sometimes you take the less expensive option if you think it can still work out. It sounds like B is not the best teacher but the bad part of the union is good luck replacing B now. Without these changes B would continue to work for years being a bad teacher and then be rewarded with great benefits and a pension and retire at age 55 with all of us paying for it. I am not saying all teachers are bad - sounds like you are one of the good ones and I commend you for not walking off the job. Now if you went and protested this weekend in Madison I would not blame you a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ground Chuck Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 At one point you say you are concerned as the government will again "underfund education". You then go on to state that in a district that gets twice the per pupil funding test scores, attendance, etc... are abysmal. Just thought it was interesting. ETA: I many developing nations around the world, education is underfunded and they are kicking our collective asses on standardized test scores. Is it our system, our parents, the students, society at large, or the fact that teachers would rather strike than explain what is going on to their classes? You are correct the "again" should have been omitted from my post because Walker hasn't had the chance to underfund education yet. The fact remains however that education will need to be cut in the future to fill that budget shortfall. Taxes will not be raised, Walker has made that clear. I'm not a fan of the sick-outs. Unprofessional in my opinion. Sorry you feel that teachers would rather strike. That is not me. Milwaukee is the problem. It should receive the same money as the rest of the districts in the state. Unfortunately, the socioeconomic factors that are present in Milwaukee will never allow that to be. If they received the same level of aid as my district did, the state would save 450 million right there. How can we expect test scores to be good when 30% of MPS students miss over 20 school days per year? Next time you speak with a foreign exchange student ask him or her about education in their home country. I'm sure that most will tell you that in elementary school students are determined as to what type of high school they are moved on to. Many developing countries, especially in Asia, have "trade" high schools and "university prep" high schools. Guess which students are selected to take standardized tests? In the US we test almost every student, even those with mild disabilities. I would like to see where we would end up if they tested almost all of their students. While MPS's scores are abysmal, Wisconsin's are pretty good in my opinion. Wisconsin students rank 3rd on SAT scores nationwide. I wonder where we would be if we took MPS out of the mix. Wisconsin teachers rank 18th in total compensation. I would say that is pretty good return on the taxpayer's investment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Why does a 6th grade science teacher need a masters degree? Why is there such a large difference in the salaries of two teachers that will basically do the same thing? Is the teacher with the masters degree and 8 years experience really going to be 60% better than the new hire? One of the biggest problems I see with regard to teachers is the manner in which their compensation is determined. In the real world outside of union jobs compensation is based on merit. Teachers and most others that have unions are rewarded based on years experience instead of merit. This makes no sense to me, as it would seem to deter those with true ambition. Compensation should be based on performance, not the number of degrees or years employed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpwallace49 Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Why does a 6th grade science teacher need a masters degree? Why is there such a large difference in the salaries of two teachers that will basically do the same thing? Is the teacher with the masters degree and 8 years experience really going to be 60% better than the new hire? One of the biggest problems I see with regard to teachers is the manner in which their compensation is determined. In the real world outside of union jobs compensation is based on merit. Teachers and most others that have unions are rewarded based on years experience instead of merit. This makes no sense to me, as it would seem to deter those with true ambition. Compensation should be based on performance, not the number of degrees or years employed. Um. Perch? In a lot of industries advanced degrees can mean a big bump in the pay scale, or access to certian jobs that would otherwise be closed. oThat is not specific to teachers, or an unusual phenomenon. If the 6th grade teacher always remains a 6th grade teacher, then I agree. I dont see the added value to the job versus the pay raise there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Um. Perch? In a lot of industries advanced degrees can mean a big bump in the pay scale, or access to certian jobs that would otherwise be closed. oThat is not specific to teachers, or an unusual phenomenon. If the 6th grade teacher always remains a 6th grade teacher, then I agree. I dont see the added value to the job versus the pay raise there. I realize advanced degrees have value in some professions but we are talking about a sixth grade teacher. This thread is about teachers. How much additional value does an advanced degree offer in terms of production in elementary, middle/junior high, or even at the high school level? The only real benefit I see is to the teacher rather than to the district or the students. I realize there may be a few exceptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpwallace49 Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 1) I think he will take it away eventually from them. However, I don't think he wanted to do the "public safety" unions because who would respond if these protesters start getting out of hand (I'm sure they will eventually - the left always does)? The National Guard can't handle ALL of the responsibility so whether he does them first or last it makes no difference - it will happen. That's not being a coward, its being smart. 2) Well, the Republicans were exercising a legitimate actions by Filibustering while the Dems are just running and hiding like a bunch of cowards. Do they both do the same thing? Sure. But does the ends really justify the means? I'd argue that running and hiding behind momma's skirt in IL (really? IL? With their corrupted politics?) and shirking responsibility - since that's what they are elected to do (vote) - is a lot more egregious than filibustering. I'd say this actually makes them look worse than they already are looking. In fact, I bet in the next election cycle you'll see these 14 cowards out of office - that's money in the bank! 1.) If he does, then I will give him props for at least TRYING to evenly apply this. Until then he is cherry picking and playing favorites. Considering how many firefighters marched in support of the teachers, he might as well as cut them off too. 2.) They are denying a quorum, which is as legitimate as the Republicans filibustering every piece of legislation to slow the process on purpose. technically OK, but childish and distasteful. Neither tactic is worthy of the jobs they have to do. They NOT elected to simply vote, that is a horribly uniformed comment. Considering that almost 120 million over the next 2 years deficit was immediately caused by Scott Walker signing a completely unfunded tax break for businesses into law, you can say that this crisis was almost manufactured in the first place. If he doesnt just cut taxes without any way to pay for it, then there isnt a "deficit emergency" this year. next year, maybe. But not this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpwallace49 Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Because everyone else in the real world doesn't give them a business handed to them when they graduate. Cmon man . . . . really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Why does a 6th grade science teacher need a masters degree? For the same reason your daddy pays you money for posting on the internet. Because. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 (edited) Cmon man . . . . really? Do you think anyone here really reads you? I mean beyond Perch and vice versa? Edited February 20, 2011 by bushwacked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 For the same reason your daddy pays you money for posting on the internet. Because. Last time I checked I signed the checks. Get a life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpwallace49 Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Do you think anyone here really reads you? I mean beyond Perch and vice versa? That really hurts my feelings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ground Chuck Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Why does a 6th grade science teacher need a masters degree? Why is there such a large difference in the salaries of two teachers that will basically do the same thing? Is the teacher with the masters degree and 8 years experience really going to be 60% better than the new hire? One of the biggest problems I see with regard to teachers is the manner in which their compensation is determined. In the real world outside of union jobs compensation is based on merit. Teachers and most others that have unions are rewarded based on years experience instead of merit. This makes no sense to me, as it would seem to deter those with true ambition. Compensation should be based on performance, not the number of degrees or years employed. I'm all for performance based compensation. Unfortunately, that is not the case in WI and many other states. Two questions beg to be answered. 1. How are you going to fairly measure performance while accounting for socioeconomic factors? (Is my fault that Timmy bombed his state test because his dad threw his mom around the apartment that morning filling his head with all kinds of crap?) 2. How can you keep the measurement from adding even more of a financial burden to tight education budgets? It is going to cost even more money to implement a new system to measure teacher performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 (edited) That really hurts my feelings. I didn't intend to hurt yer feelings. There are a handful of you that feel the need to write short stories with every post no matter the topic. In doing so I con only think that you guys somehow assume we are interested in reading said Steven King Novel. I work upwards to as many macho hours as everyone here tries to claim they do. I find you saying the same thing over and over again, I find Perch saying the same thing over and over again. I find Detlef going on about something that must be incredibly important that I don't have the time to read. I wish I had that much time to pontificate how important things are. I find not reading multiple paragraphs from you or Perch as efficiency. I sometimes wonder, and so do others, why you and Perch don't just share a chat room, and you can spare us all the predictable pain. Because there are some people here who have something less predictable to say in less than 20,000 words. Edited February 20, 2011 by bushwacked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 I'm all for performance based compensation. Unfortunately, that is not the case in WI and many other states. Two questions beg to be answered. 1. How are you going to fairly measure performance while accounting for socioeconomic factors? (Is my fault that Timmy bombed his state test because his dad threw his mom around the apartment that morning filling his head with all kinds of crap?) 2. How can you keep the measurement from adding even more of a financial burden to tight education budgets? It is going to cost even more money to implement a new system to measure teacher performance. It would be fairly simple. Each district is given $x per student from the state. The state can adjust $x per student based on cost of living and demographics if needed. The district then decides how much of their budget will be spent on labor at each campus. The principal then determines teacher pay on his/her campus. The principal would basically act as a manager that has to fill so many positions with a finite budget. That's the short answer. If I wasn't on my phone I'd go into more details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ground Chuck Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 It would be fairly simple. Each district is given $x per student from the state. The state can adjust $x per student based on cost of living and demographics if needed. The district then decides how much of their budget will be spent on labor at each campus. The principal then determines teacher pay on his/her campus. The principal would basically act as a manager that has to fill so many positions with a finite budget. That's the short answer. If I wasn't on my phone I'd go into more details. I wish it could be that simple. In your plan the teacher better share the same educational philosophy as his/her principal. Believe me I do not share the touchy-feely approach to discipline that my principal seems to prefer. We have butted heads about it. Would I imagine that she would use that power that you have bestowed upon her to get me to see the error of my ways? Well let's just say it wouldn't surprise me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caddyman Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 I didn't intend to hurt yer feelings. There are a handful of you that feel the need to write short stories with every post no matter the topic. In doing so I con only think that you guys somehow assume we are interested in reading said Steven King Novel. I work upwards to as many macho hours as everyone here tries to claim they do. I find you saying the same thing over and over again, I find Perch saying the same thing over and over again. I find Detlef going on about something that must be incredibly important that I don't have the time to read. I wish I had that much time to pontificate how important things are. I find not reading multiple paragraphs from you or Perch as efficiency. I sometimes wonder, and so do others, why you and Perch don't just share a chat room, and you can spare us all the predictable pain. Because there are some people here who have something less predictable to say in less than 20,000 words. You sure are not one of them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clubfoothead Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Here in Texas Republicans have free marketed our state into the poor house. The Texas Education Agency will lay off 100,000 employees this summer including at least 10,000 teachers state-wide. The helmet says we can afford a $200,000,000 tax break to keep Amazon's 120 employee distribution center in Plano or Irving open. I say if we are that broke, f*ck Amazon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 I wish it could be that simple. In your plan the teacher better share the same educational philosophy as his/her principal. Believe me I do not share the touchy-feely approach to discipline that my principal seems to prefer. We have butted heads about it. Would I imagine that she would use that power that you have bestowed upon her to get me to see the error of my ways? Well let's just say it wouldn't surprise me. Most people have to watch what they say and how they act around their bosses, and even those that are the boss often have to do the same around both employees and clients as well. If you did this it would require a lot more teacher accountability. It would help to quickly Josh Gordon out the bad teachers, as well as reward the good teachers. I honestly wouldn't have the principal doing it. I'd set it up more like a real business. You'd have different levels of management. The school superintendents would be like district managers and would provide a budget to each campus. The principal would be like the store manager, and given a budget would then provide a budget to each department head / manager. It would actually be the department heads that would allocate the labor budgets for their departments. It would allow the districts and individual campuses a lot more latitude in addressing troubled areas. Good teachers would be rewarded, and bad teachers would not. Sure it will have a few problems, but it is better than what we have now, rewarding teachers for just having been there for a long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tosberg34 Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 (edited) 1.) If he does, then I will give him props for at least TRYING to evenly apply this. Until then he is cherry picking and playing favorites. Considering how many firefighters marched in support of the teachers, he might as well as cut them off too. 2.) They are denying a quorum, which is as legitimate as the Republicans filibustering every piece of legislation to slow the process on purpose. technically OK, but childish and distasteful. Neither tactic is worthy of the jobs they have to do. They NOT elected to simply vote, that is a horribly uniformed comment. Considering that almost 120 million over the next 2 years deficit was immediately caused by Scott Walker signing a completely unfunded tax break for businesses into law, you can say that this crisis was almost manufactured in the first place. If he doesnt just cut taxes without any way to pay for it, then there isnt a "deficit emergency" this year. next year, maybe. But not this year. 1) Okay. I see your point. 2) Uninformed? Really? The people don't VOTE Senators into office to VOTE on legislation for the state? It's one of the fundamental parts of their job. However, I NEVER implied that is their ONLY job. I'm surprised that you read it that way. Or maybe were you just trying to get a jab in? 3) I would agree with you that the running away (to deny a quorum) is childish and distasteful and ultimately the voters of WI will get to determine how legitimate that really is next election cycle. However, I still don't think that a filibuster is anywhere near as cowardly, childish and distasteful as that. Filibustering means you have to be on the Senate floor, defending/arguing your points. At the very least you got the balls to show up and hold things from passing IN PERSON. How can you do that in another state hiding behind Momma's skirt? Again, do they BOTH accomplish the same thing? Yes. 4) Politifact has already debunked the nonsense about Walker creating a deficit when their wasn't one. People who say this aren't opening their eyes to the real problem. Edited February 20, 2011 by tosberg34 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McBoog Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 TSA, Homeland Security, IRS. TSA - Agreed IRS - Agreed, with a major tax overhaul. Homeland Security could probably be cut in half, but the revenue generated by duty and users fees collected pays for the entire operation. One of the few agencies that does not cost tax dollars (directly. It could be argued that a leaner agency would contribute more to the treasury and relieve more tax burden. As mentioned in the previous post, I could slash A LOT out of my own agency with little negative effect). CBP, HSI and ERO are all functions that keep us and the borders from being completely overrun. They are out-manned and at times outgunned, but are way ahead of the curve when knowing about and dealing with terrorism here at home as well. The FBI may grab the headlines, but HSI deals with more CRIMINAL aliens than any government entity. A lot of the disconnect comes from CIS (Citizenship and Immigration Services). Here lie the IJs (Immigration Judges) that refuse to do the right thing and allow the scumbags to stay and file appeal after appeal. It is VERY frustrating to put somebody into proceedings that has "derogatory information" and watch them get kicked out the back door on a minimal bond while they file appeal after appeal. My unit hooked some really bad dudes last year and the IJs let EVERY ONE of them walk on bond. That is not on my guys. We did our jobs, but the Immigration Courts have been infiltrated by hyper-liberal decision makers, resulting in triple homicides like the one that just happened in Manassas, VA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Five states in the U.S. specifically prohibit collective bargaining for teachers. Their rankings in combined ACT/SAT scores: 44, 47, 48, 49 and 50. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borge007 Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Five states in the U.S. specifically prohibit collective bargaining for teachers. Their rankings in combined ACT/SAT scores: 44, 47, 48, 49 and 50. State politics mostly controlled by Republicans. Hmmmmmm-How's that working-Virginia, Texas, Georgia, North Carolina and South Carolina? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Five states in the U.S. specifically prohibit collective bargaining for teachers. Their rankings in combined ACT/SAT scores: 44, 47, 48, 49 and 50. That's quite the statistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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