The country is broke, state and local govts broke

[gbpfan1231]

Give me a break. Yea it is about this year but I am pretty sure that all of these decisions have been made looking out farther than 2011. You are nuts if you think it is only about this year. That would be idiotic.

 

I hear ya I hear ya on the fact that ALL unions should have addressed. I think we all know your view on that since this is the 34th time you have written that same exact statement. I hope Walker is not done and hopefully the other unions will be addressed.

 

Let's save time for the future. From now on you can just type AUSBA and we will all know that it stands for ALL UNIONS SHOULD BE ADDRESSED. It will save you the effort of typing it out 25 more times and save all of us the effort a reading it AGAIN.

Sorry I just read your latest response which must have been written as I was typing the above so I need to change what I wrote above.

 

Make the 34th above 37th. Sorry for my inaccuracies.

[bpwallace49]

Sorry I just read your latest response which must have been written as I was typing the above so I need to change what I wrote above.

 

Make the 34th above 37th. Sorry for my inaccuracies.

 

 

Until then it is Walker going after a union that contributed and endorsed his opponent. I am not surprised that distinction sailed well over your head many many times. Over 30 I times I believe . . . .

 

Maybe I am expecting too much from a tea party candidate that has an opportunity to evenly apply austerity measures to actually do so?

[gbpfan1231]

 

Until then it is Walker going after a union that contributed and endorsed his opponent. I am not surprised that distinction sailed well over your head many many times. Over 30 I times I believe . . . .

 

Maybe I am expecting too much from a tea party candidate that has an opportunity to evenly apply austerity measures to actually do so?

It did not sail over my head. I have said before I am disappointed he did not include ALL unions.

 

I am done arguing tonight. I have to get up early and drive to Mad town - I took a paid sick day tomorrow so I could support Walker. I had a few meetings scheduled but I did not think other people (i.e. students) mattered so they will have to cancel the meeting.

[bpwallace49]

It did not sail over my head. I have said before I am disappointed he did not include ALL unions.

 

I am done arguing tonight. I have to get up early and drive to Mad town - I took a paid sick day tomorrow so I could support Walker. I had a few meetings scheduled but I did not think other people (i.e. students) mattered so they will have to cancel the meeting.

 

There are clinics giving out sick notes so they count as "official" sick days for all the protesters suffering from "stress".

 

Be sure to pick one up just to be safe in case your employer finds out you are purposefully ducking work and that you are abusing your sick days so you do not get fired.

[The Mucca]

It has to do with right-to-work states as opposed to states that have collective bargaining. Where are the lies?

 

Not sure where you are going with this, Nevada is a right to work state, and the teachers union here has

collective bargaining.

[McBoog]

When you are bargaining with the people who are dependent on your vote to get into office, it is a conflict of interest, in this case a double whammy as it is a conflict of the people's interest as well.

[MikesVikes]

Five states in the U.S. specifically prohibit collective bargaining for teachers. Their rankings in combined ACT/SAT scores: 44, 47, 48, 49 and 50.

 

You get your point across in one line and it takes gbpfan four paragraphs to say nothing.

[gbpfan1231]

You get your point across in one line and it takes gbpfan four paragraphs to say nothing.

I count two lines in his post.

[borge007]

I count two lines in his post.

That's all you've got?

[tosberg34]

You get your point across in one line and it takes gbpfan four paragraphs to say nothing.

 

You didn't read the previous posts. His point was busted as a Michael Moore style version of the facts. His statement has nothing to do with collective bargaining at all.

[bushwacked]

You didn't read the previous posts. His point was busted as a Michael Moore style version of the facts. His statement has nothing to do with collective bargaining at all.

 

Yer doing a heckuva job tosberg, keep up the hard work.

[tosberg34]

Yer doing a heckuva job tosberg, keep up the hard work.

 

Someone's gotta' stop the lefty lie machine. I appreciate the kudos, though. I consider you one of my best friends on these forums. Thanks, man!

[Ground Chuck]

Why Unions? Here's why. Edited February 22, 2011 by Ground Chuck

[tosberg34]

Why Unions? Here's why.

 

Don't have facebook. Could you quote it?

[bpwallace49]

Here you go Tosberg.

 

Vote No on Walker's Budget Bill

 

I have seen many arguments in favor of the Budget Repair Bill proposed by Governor Walker. The problem is that I have not seen any of these arguments backed up by reputable sources. In fact, I haven't seen them backed up by any sources at all, and some are blatantly false. It has become quite clear to me that there are many misunderstandings about this bill and its effects which has lead to people supporting the bill based on false assumptions. Because of this, I have decided to put together a list of some of the most common myths I have seen regarding the bill and refute each of these myths using actual evidence rather than opinion or hearsay. Here are the most common myths I have seen/heard. If anyone has anything they feel should be added to the list, please feel free to make a suggestion. Also, please feel free to use these sources to refute anyone making the arguments listed below.

 

 

 

 

 

Myth 1: We should go ahead and get rid of unions and collective bargaining rights. They are unnecessary. I work for a non-unionized employer, so I don't gain anything from unions.

 

 

 

Unions set the standard for pay, benefits, and working conditions for all employees, whether or not they are in a union. According to the Economic Policy Institute, this generally happens due to two reasons. The first is called the “threat effect.” Non-unionized companies do not want to become unionized, so they need to treat their employees well and give them good enough pay, benefits, and working conditions so that employees will not see the need to unionize. The second is “a more general mechanism (without any specific “threat”) in which unions have affected nonunion pay and practices: unions have set norms and established practices that become more generalized throughout the economy, thereby improving pay and working conditions for the entire workforce” (Economic Policy Institute: http://www.epi.org/page/-/old/briefingpapers/143/bp143.pdf)

 

 

 

 

 

Myth 2: I have no say in my pay, benefits, and working conditions, so why should State employees?

 

 

 

Under the National Labor Relations Act (NLRA), any private sector employees have the right to collectively bargain and form a union. There is nothing stopping you from acting on that right. This bill would take away that right for public employees. To learn more about private sector employees rights under the NLRA, click here: http://www.nlrb.gov/rights-we-protect.

 

 

 

Myth 3: Public employees are overpaid and we need to level the playing field.

 

 

 

There have been many myths about this due to people who are not comparing apples to apples. The majority of public jobs require a high degree of education and specialized skills (teachers, fire fighters, public defenders, etc.). I have read arguments written by people who work in low-skilled jobs complain that teachers should not make more than them. That is certainly not an equal comparison. The Economic Policy Institute recently released a study in which wages of public sector employees were compared with similarly educated/skilled workers in the private sector. The results of the study were that when taking account both wages AND benefits, public sector employees are UNDERpaid by 8.2%. It gets even worse when looking at college-educated employees. College-educated employees are paid 25% less in the public sector than they are in the private sector. (http://www.epi.org/publications/entry/news_from_epi_epi_study_finds_wisconsin_public-sector_workers_under-compens)

 

 

 

Myth 4: Public employees are greedy and should stop whining about getting a pay cut.

 

 

 

The number one reason public employees oppose this bill is NOT because of matters of money. In fact, they agreed to all of the pay cuts that the bill asks for as long as they can keep their right to collectively bargain. (http://wtaq.com/news/articles/2011/feb/19/dem-sen-public-employees-agree-govs-concessions/) The main opposition to this bill is the right to collectively bargain. This right extends not only to pay and benefits, but to working conditions such as class sizes for teachers, standard working hours, and disciplinary procedures, among many other items. As mentioned earlier, private sector employees have this right under the NLRA. This bill would limit collective bargaining in the public-sector only to wages, which would be limited to the Consumer Price Index. Since benefits are such a large part of true pay, not being able to bargain for them at all could drastically reduce take-home pay. This effect could not be countered with higher pay since pay raises would be limited to the CPI. Of course, there is also the issue of working conditions which could no longer be bargained (see page 1 in the bill for details:http://budget.wisc.edu/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/0211walkerbudgetlrb.pdf)

 

 

 

 

 

Myth 5: The bill will help create jobs and/or help boost the economy.

 

 

 

This bill will do just the opposite. This article (http://www.wisconsinsfuture.org/publications_pdfs/IWF_public_employee_cuts.pdf) highlights the effects that the pay cuts to public workers will have on EVERYONE in Wisconsin. This is due to the decrease in purchasing power. When middle-class workers bring home less pay, they spend less money in the local economy. Walker's proposals would take between $900 million and $1.2 billion per year out of the State economy. These dollar amounts are “based on published statements by Walker’s staff, estimates from the Department of Administration and data from the Department of Workforce Development.” An estimated 9,000 to 11,500 private-sector jobs would be destroyed due to this ripple effect.

[MikesVikes]

You didn't read the previous posts. His point was busted as a Michael Moore style version of the facts. His statement has nothing to do with collective bargaining at all.

 

You had a 50/50 shot at being called out instead of gbpfan. It was a tough decision that could've gone either way.

[SEC=UGA]

Editor's note: John Avlon is a CNN contributor and senior political columnist for The Daily Beast. He is the author of "Wingnuts: How the Lunatic Fringe Is Hijacking America."

 

New York (CNN) -- The newly elected executive began implementing his campaign platform in a tough economic environment.

 

The minority party in the legislature responded with a collective freak-out. Massive populist protests were held, drawing national press attention. A few signs in the crowd compared the newly elected executive to Hitler. Partisan cable TV opinion anchors doubled their duty, drumming up the crowds and then offering "analysis" on air. The language of apocalypse was invoked, the battle lines were drawn -- and domestic politics started to feel a little like a war.

 

No, this isn't a recap of Washington 2009 after Barack Obama's election, but Wisconsin 2011 after Gov. Scott Walker's election. And if you were offended by one, but cheering the other, you're part of the problem -- an atmosphere of hyperpartisanship in which extremes on both sides of the political spectrum act like wingnuts crying wolf.

 

States around the nation are wrestling with massive budget deficits -- and most of them stem significantly from public sector pension obligations. Walker campaigned on a commitment to confront the public sector expenses and the voters in traditionally liberal Wisconsin endorsed that agenda.

 

Democrats found themselves in the minority, so they have embraced the logic of the cowardly knights in "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" -- "Run Away!" A critical mass are now hiding out of state.

 

Prominent Democrats and liberal opinion hosts like MSNBC's Ed Schultz have tried to make this a national cause even as members of the crowd displayed signs that echoed the ugliest incidents of the Tea Party rallies -- including comparisons of Walker to a Nazi.

 

Fox News, which chose not to focus on similar signs when they emanated from Tea Party crowds, could not condemn the liberal counterparts fast enough. Some liberals suggested the Nazi references were the work of provocateurs designed to discredit their effort, just like conservatives had before them. The people who used Nazi imagery in both cases can be characterized as outliers, but they cannot be ignored.

 

 

Dig below the style and you'll find a serious substantive debate -- how should governors meet the responsibility of balancing their budgets?

Generous labor contracts can create unsustainable debt, negotiated by one generation and paid for by another.

 

Democratic governors like Andrew Cuomo of New York and Jerry Brown of California are attempting to address pension benefits and health care costs to the extent that it is permissible under their state constitutions. But Walker is taking aim at the underlying problem: collective bargaining and union "check-offs" that create a vicious cycle of taxpayer subsidized partisan politics and labor deals that pass the buck to the next generation.

 

Liberal icon President Franklin Delano Roosevelt opposed the ability of public sector unions -- government worker unions paid for by taxpayers -- to collectively bargain, saying the negotiators in such cases couldn't bind the decisions of the public through the legislature about how to run government.

 

Generous labor contracts can create unsustainable debt, negotiated by one generation and paid for by another. That's what we're seeing now, as the United States faces an aging population, with growing numbers of public employees retiring to draw their pensions.

 

In the intervening decades, the Democratic Party has become politically dependent on the donations from public sector unions. For example, among their largest donors most election cycles are teachers unions -- and that money was essentially recycled taxpayer dollars, filtered through the union via an automatic paycheck deduction and then given to the Democratic Party.

 

The unions' power, especially in the Democratic primaries, can be understood as equivalent to the social conservatives' disproportionate influence in the Republican primaries -- except that it is better funded, through repurposed taxpayer dollars.

 

Democrats have so far seen fit to try to make the Wisconsin budget battle a national metaphor for Republican budget cuts to come. But most citizens care more about their own bottom line than the sanctity of sweetheart union deals, especially at a time when towns and families are still struggling to make ends meet.

 

We have reached a point in some cases where the average public sector worker makes more money -- including benefits -- than the average private sector worker, and this is unsustainable.

 

Renegotiating collective bargaining does not mean Republicans hate teachers -- or cops or firefighters. It means they are trying to meet their obligation to balance the budget while looking out for future generations of citizen taxpayers.

 

Hyperpartisan tantrums, whether by Republicans or Democrats, are ridiculous and irresponsible. Bills deserve up or down votes. Fear-mongering should be condemned in political debates no matter what side is implicated.

 

Walker and the Republicans in the Wisconsin State Legislature were elected to deal with big budget deficits in what is often pigeonholed as a liberal state. They are now attempting to do just that -- and they deserve credit for looking at the long-term causes of the budget deficits and attempting to deal with them. All-or-nothing approaches to legislation rarely lead to real progress. There should be room for a constructive compromise between responsible Republicans and Democrats that deals with the big-picture problem while bringing an end to this street-theater stalemate.

 

Unhinged protests that substitute fear and hate for reason and responsibility deserve to be condemned. So do legislators who abdicate their responsibility by running for the hills.

 

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of John P. Avlon.

[Azazello1313]

I work upwards to as many macho hours as everyone here tries to claim they do.

 

bushwacked 22,611 posts (8.4 per day)

perchoutofwater 21,807 posts (8.01 per day)

 

you're a macho macho man

[Perchoutofwater]

bushwacked 22,611 posts (8.4 per day)

perchoutofwater 21,807 posts (8.01 per day)

 

you're a macho macho man

 

And, I'll freely admit I haven't worked hard at all in the last 6 months or so, because there is nothing worth working on. I bet in the last 6 months I haven't worked more than an average of 10 hours a week. Sure I show up at the office for 6-8 hours a day, but more times than not I'm just twiddling my thumbs.

[bushwacked]

I post a lot about football, and a lot on Sundays. Perch is handling snakes on Sundays.

[Azazello1313]

first, thanks for what you do and I appreciate the measured, thoughtful responses.

 

A fair question. It's not disrespectful.

 

My answer.

 

I don't trust school boards to do the right thing. I was on a hiring committee about 5 years ago when we were looking for a 6th grade teacher with a science background. We narrowed it down to two finalists, but one was head and shoulders above the other. Candidate A had eight years of experience in the Greenfield School District, held her master's, had a great science background, and knocked it out of the park with her interview. Candidate B was a new grad from UW-Whitewater, solid interview. All of us on the committee chose A. My principal informed all of us that the board would never approve A because she was too expensive. Her salary would have been in the neighborhood of $45,000. Candidate B would be starting at 28,000. He was right, the board refused candidate A. With our hands tied, we hired B. (Just so you know, B called in sick Thurs. and Fri. protesting in Madison). I have heard this stories like this time and again throughout Waukesha and Jefferson counties.

 

that is a legitimate hiring decision that happens all the time in union and non-union settings, in public and private sector, etc. is it better to hire 10 teachers at a $50K salary/benes package, or 5 teachers at a $100K package? the answer to that question depends on a lot of variables. sometimes the people making the hiring decisions may make poor decisions. but there is no "right" or "wrong" answer, and absolutely nothing sinister or shady at play. in their view they couldn't afford to meet A's asking price.

 

Without union protection, boards will have unlimited power to impose their will. This truly is scary. It's not just salary and bennies either. Rules governing sick time carryover, prep time, and credit for licensure repayment would be fair game as well.

 

not true, people in any employment situation can always vote with their feet. that arrangement works alright for 80% percent of employees out there, private and public. there is simply no such thing as an "unlimited power to impose their will" in any at-will employment situation.

 

and I just don't think your characterization of school boards as sinister and untrustworthy really holds water. these are simply bureaucrats who try and fit the budget into the money they are given. that requires making some hard decisions, saying no to some requests, etc. and if anything, they lack sufficient incentive to push back against union demands, in comparison with private sector managers -- which explains why state budgets around the nation are in this sort of situation in the first place. perhaps you might read and respond to these two pieces I linked earlier in this thread and offer your thoughts.

[Perchoutofwater]

I post a lot about football, and a lot on Sundays. Perch is handling snakes on Sundays.

 

Not surprisingly I think you got your religions mixed up. Also, for the majority of my time I've been a member here, I have not attended church regularly. I didn't really start attending regularly until about a two years ago.

[Azazello1313]

for bpwallace

[bpwallace49]

Az, my point is and HAS been that if Walker is all about saving money on the budget, then why didnt he go after ALL the public unions at the same time? And goes after the one with the most political clout?

 

Can you try to give an answer to why some unions are a problem and some are OK? Why some are allowed to collectively bargain and some arent? Is it about fiscal responsibility, or isnt it? Isnt iot IRRESPONSIBLE to allow those unions to retain their bargaining rights and benefits unchanged?

 

Maybe you must have missed the repeated posts where I said that these are good steps, but am asking why they are not evenly applied to all public unions.

[whomper]

Az, my point is and HAS been that if Walker is all about saving money on the budget, then why didnt he go after ALL the public unions at the same time? And goes after the one with the most political clout?

 

Can you try to give an answer to why some unions are a problem and some are OK? Why some are allowed to collectively bargain and some arent? Is it about fiscal responsibility, or isnt it? Isnt iot IRRESPONSIBLE to allow those unions to retain their bargaining rights and benefits unchanged?

 

Maybe you must have missed the repeated posts where I said that these are good steps, but am asking why they are not evenly applied to all public unions.

 

WWGadz do ?