NBA Playoffs

[Azazello1313]

up until this point in his career, dirk is the kind of guy who, if he is your best player, you can get into the playoffs consistently, and win a few rounds here and there. but then will usually come up short to the teams with the kobes and duncans -- guys who are just at a little bit higher level.

[detlef]

up until this point in his career, dirk is the kind of guy who, if he is your best player, you can get into the playoffs consistently, and win a few rounds here and there. but then will usually come up short to the teams with the kobes and duncans -- guys who are just at a little bit higher level.

This

[Gopher]

I'm just going to say this one last time:

 

The argument that Dirk was ever held back by his surrounding cast is simply not a valid one. He's been a consistently great player, but he's also had the kind of pieces around him that should or could have been enough to go all the way. Yet, overall, they haven't really accomplished all that much. They made one final and one other conference final before this year. Add to that the fact that they had a monumental collapse one of those years.

 

And it wasn't because it was Dirk and a bunch of chumps. These were teams that, on paper, were on par with the other elite teams. But they kept falling short.

 

That's really it. I haven't been bashing Dirk. I'm simply not prepared to take anyone seriously who tries to make the above excuse for Dirk not having a championship. Because it is a horrible argument. He has had other good players on his team. Plenty of them. Nearly every year he's been in the league.

Could have been enough to go all the way? Sure, but that could be said about a lot of other teams (Utah, Phoenix, Portland, etc.) as well. I don't think you can say that Dallas SHOULD have won a championship by now, with the teams that they've had. They've been right in the mix, in terms of the best teams in the West, but there has always been somebody better, period.

 

Of course, they would love to win a championship... So would Utah, Minnesota, Memphis, OKC, Portland, Phoenix, etc. To say that they haven't accomplished all that much, in a conference as tough as the West has been, is pretty silly. Again, the ultimate goal is to win it all... I get that. But, we're getting away from the argument (AGAIN). What does any of this have to with the notion that Dirk was a flopper, or had no spine (which is the only part I really have a problem with)?

 

up until this point in his career, dirk is the kind of guy who, if he is your best player, you can get into the playoffs consistently, and win a few rounds here and there. but then will usually come up short to the teams with the kobes and duncans -- guys who are just at a little bit higher level.

Exactly. Maybe I'm getting involved in the wrong argument here... I already voiced my opinion on the Bird comparison, and Dirk's not at that level.

[detlef]

Could have been enough to go all the way? Sure, but that could be said about a lot of other teams (Utah, Phoenix, Portland, etc.) as well. I don't think you can say that Dallas SHOULD have won a championship by now, with the teams that they've had. They've been right in the mix, in terms of the best teams in the West, but there has always been somebody better, period.

 

Of course, they would love to win a championship... So would Utah, Minnesota, Memphis, OKC, Portland, Phoenix, etc. To say that they haven't accomplished all that much, in a conference as tough as the West has been, is pretty silly. Again, the ultimate goal is to win it all... I get that. But, we're getting away from the argument (AGAIN). What does any of this have to with the notion that Dirk was a flopper, or had no spine (which is the only part I really have a problem with)?

 

 

Exactly. Maybe I'm getting involved in the wrong argument here... I already voiced my opinion on the Bird comparison, and Dirk's not at that level.

Gopher, I don't think you and I see this much differently then. Perhaps SHOULD was a strong word. Again, my point is that Dirk hasn't been held back because he was playing with inferior talent compared to whom other elite players had around them. He had plenty of help, but, for whatever reason, he and his (on paper) very talented teams couldn't get over the top.

[Brent]

up until this point in his career, dirk is the kind of guy who, if he is your best player, you can get into the playoffs consistently, and win a few rounds here and there. but then will usually come up short to the teams with the kobes and duncans -- guys who are just at a little bit higher level.

 

 

 

This

 

 

 

But then you say this.

 

 

 

I'm just going to say this one last time:

 

The argument that Dirk was ever held back by his surrounding cast is simply not a valid one. He's been a consistently great player, but he's also had the kind of pieces around him that should or could have been enough to go all the way. Yet, overall, they haven't really accomplished all that much. They made one final and one other conference final before this year. Add to that the fact that they had a monumental collapse one of those years.

 

And it wasn't because it was Dirk and a bunch of chumps. These were teams that, on paper, were on par with the other elite teams. But they kept falling short.

 

That's really it. I haven't been bashing Dirk. I'm simply not prepared to take anyone seriously who tries to make the above excuse for Dirk not having a championship. Because it is a horrible argument. He has had other good players on his team. Plenty of them. Nearly every year he's been in the league.

 

 

You ever think maybe if the other team is simply better, they are going to win most of the time. the supporting cast almost every year simply doesnt compare to those other teams that go onto beat Dallas, outside the years against Miami and Golden State.And it was an upset over San Antonio to even get to the Finals that year. You could argue they overacheived getting past a better team in San Antonio that year, and choked the Finals and the next year. No one is arguing they choked in 2006, or 2007. No one. But there is no guarantee they win the West even the year they were the #1 seed, as San Antonio won the title in 2007. Their 4th in 9 years. The Lakers won 5 in the 8 years. Miami, Detroit and Boston won the others this past 12 years.

 

 

San Antonio - Duncan, Ginobilli, Parker and Robinson, Duncan, Kerr, and Horry before that

LA Lakers - Kobe, Shaq and Kobe, Gasol

Boston - Pierce, Garnett, and Allen

Detroit - Billips - Finals MVP, Ben Wallace - DPOY, Sheed, RIP, Prince

Miami - Wade and Shaq

 

Who has Dallas had better to compliment Dirk than any of these teams above that won the Championship. No one even comes close. Detroit may have been the weakest Champion of the bunch, but Dallas lost to a better San Antonio team, who then lost to a better Laker team to get to Detroit in the Finals. And if you think Dallas was better than the Lakers, they couldnt even get past San Antonio or Denver, or New Orleans who were all rated higher than them to get to the Lakers. that is how deep the west has been.

 

 

 

BTW, You flop more than Ginobilli. And you should probably just quit while you are behind.

Edited May 23, 2011 by Brent

[detlef]

But then you say this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

You ever think maybe if the other team is simply better, they are going to win most of the time. the supporting cast almost every year simply doesnt compare to those other teams that go onto beat Dallas, outside the years against Miami and Golden State.And it was an upset over San Antonio to even get to the Finals that year. You could argue they overacheived getting past a better team in San Antonio that year, and choked the Finals and the next year. No one is arguing they choked in 2006, or 2007. No one. But there is no guarantee they win the West even the year they were the #1 seed, as San Antonio won the title in 2007. Their 4th in 9 years. The Lakers won 5 in the 8 years. Miami, Detroit and Boston won the others this past 12 years.

 

 

San Antonio - Duncan, Ginobilli, Parker and Robinson, Duncan, Kerr, and Horry before that

LA Lakers - Kobe, Shaq and Kobe, Gasol

Boston - Pierce, Garnett, and Allen

Detroit - Billips - Finals MVP, Ben Wallace - DPOY, Sheed, RIP, Prince

Miami - Wade and Shaq

 

Who has Dallas had better to compliment Dirk than any of these teams above that won the Championship. No one even comes close. Detroit may have been the weakest Champion of the bunch, but Dallas lost to a better San Antonio team, who then lost to a better Laker team to get to Detroit in the Finals. And if you think Dallas was better than the Lakers, they couldnt even get past San Antonio or Denver, or New Orleans who were all rated higher than them to get to the Lakers. that is how deep the west has been.

 

 

 

BTW, You flop more than Ginobilli. And you should probably just quit while you are behind.

The only reason why Kobe+Gasol was enough to get it done but Dirk+Nash+Finley was not, is because Kobe>Dirk. Which means, quite simply, that Dirk was not being held back by his team this whole time. That's my point. You keep trying to pretend it was Dirk vs the world and that's why he doesn't have a ring, and that is, quite simply, not true.

[Gopher]

Gopher, I don't think you and I see this much differently then. Perhaps SHOULD was a strong word. Again, my point is that Dirk hasn't been held back because he was playing with inferior talent compared to whom other elite players had around them. He had plenty of help, but, for whatever reason, he and his (on paper) very talented teams couldn't get over the top.

You're right... Like I mentioned previously, I think I got sucked into the wrong argument here. Dallas (and a few other teams) fall into the category of teams that could have won it all on a number of given years, but never got over the hump. They came close once, up 2-0 against Miami, and had a few other instances where they won a series or two. Personally, I don't think that makes them major underachievers, any more than it makes them major overachievers. They are what they are... A team that was probably good enough to win it, but never did. Again, there are a few teams in that category.

 

The only reason I even posted on this topic was because of the comments about Dirk, specifically. Clearly, Dallas has stepped up their game, if that's what you want to call it. But, the argument could be made that Chandler is the difference this year, not Dirk... and it's actually a pretty valid argument. Dirk is doing what he's always done... 25-10, clearing the defensive glass (as much as a white guy who can't jump can do so), and surviving on defense. Like I said before, the guy is (relatively) uncoordinated, and not the freakish athlete that a lot of others are. That has nothing to do with being a flop-artist, and in watching him over the years (which I have), I see nothing that supports the no-spine argument, either.

[Brent]

The only reason why Kobe+Gasol was enough to get it done but Dirk+Nash+Finley was not, is because Kobe>Dirk. Which means, quite simply, that Dirk was not being held back by his team this whole time. That's my point. You keep trying to pretend it was Dirk vs the world and that's why he doesn't have a ring, and that is, quite simply, not true.

 

 

Dallas didnt have Nash and Finley, when the Lakers had Kobe and Gasol. So whats your point. When Dallas had those 3, the Lakers had Kobe and Shaq. Dallas hasnt played the Lakers in the playoffs before this current year since the 80's. And Kobe certainly was not better than Dirk this yr, the only time these 2 have ever met in the playoffs. So even that whole point is worthless. Dirk was certainly being held back by his team, if the other TEAMS were better than his team. How hard is this for you to realize. For Gopher and me to agree, which is saying something, is only because you are dead wrong as usual.

[detlef]

Dallas didnt have Nash and Finley, when the Lakers had Kobe and Gasol. So whats your point. When Dallas had those 3, the Lakers had Kobe and Shaq. Dallas hasnt played the Lakers in the playoffs before this current year since the 80's. And Kobe certainly was not better than Dirk this yr, the only time these 2 have ever met in the playoffs. So even that whole point is worthless. Dirk was certainly being held back by his team, if the other TEAMS were better than his team. How hard is this for you to realize. For Gopher and me to agree, which is saying something, is only because you are dead wrong as usual.

You might want to read Gopher's last post.

 

My point about Dirk+ his guys < Kobe +Gasol is that you can't exclude Dirk from the equation. Of all those combos you pointed out, there weren't many where the best player in the duo or trio wasn't also better than Dirk. Duncan plus Parker and Ginobli being good enough to get over the top had plenty to do with the fact that Duncan was better than Dirk. So, again, you can't put the blame on the guys playing with Dirk. Which is what you keep insisting upon doing.

 

The fact that Dirk doesn't have a ring has more to do with what Azz said, that, if he's your best player, that might not be enough, as it does with the fact that Cuban never assembled a decent team around him. Because implying that Dirk hasn't had the caliber of teammates that other elite players of his era have had is false to the point of being ludicrous.

Edited May 23, 2011 by detlef

[Brent]

You might want to read Gopher's last post.

 

My point about Dirk+ his guys < Kobe +Gasol is that you can't exclude Dirk from the equation. Of all those combos you pointed out, there weren't many where the best player in the duo or trio wasn't also better than Dirk. Duncan plus Parker and Ginobli being good enough to get over the top had plenty to do with the fact that Duncan is better than Dirk. So, again, you can't put the blame on the guys playing with Dirk. Which is what you keep insisting upon doing.

 

The fact that Dirk doesn't have a ring has more to do with what Azz said, that, if he's your best player, that might not be enough, as it does with the fact that Cuban never assembled a decent team around him.

 

 

Dirk has been better than Duncan for years, even last yr when San Antonio bounced the Mavs in round 1. Dirk certainly looks better than Kobe now, and Shaq for years, even when Shaq played with Miami and they beat Dallas.

 

Is there any doubt that Kobe wasnt the the problem for the Lakers after Shaq and before Gasol. But what happened to the Lakers during those years when Kobe had Odom, Fisher, and Butler. They couldnt get it done, until they got Gasol. Think maybe Chandler is having the same kind of effect for Dallas this year.

 

And Dirk is certainly better than Gasol. Pierce, Garnett, Allen, when they won the title or any of the Detroit players. So as usual, wrong again.

[Azazello1313]

Dirk has been better than Duncan for years, even last yr when San Antonio bounced the Mavs in round 1. Dirk certainly looks better than Kobe now, and Shaq for years, even when Shaq played with Miami and they beat Dallas.

 

Is there any doubt that Kobe wasnt the the problem for the Lakers after Shaq and before Gasol. But what happened to the Lakers during those years when Kobe had Odom, Fisher, and Butler. They couldnt get it done, until they got Gasol. Think maybe Chandler is having the same kind of effect for Dallas this year.

 

And Dirk is certainly better than Gasol. Pierce, Garnett, Allen, when they won the title or any of the Detroit players. So as usual, wrong again.

 

dirk's better than duncan and garnett, huh? maybe in a world with no defense.

[detlef]

Dirk has been better than Duncan for years, even last yr when San Antonio bounced the Mavs in round 1. Dirk certainly looks better than Kobe now, and Shaq for years, even when Shaq played with Miami and they beat Dallas.

 

Is there any doubt that Kobe wasnt the the problem for the Lakers after Shaq and before Gasol. But what happened to the Lakers during those years when Kobe had Odom, Fisher, and Butler. They couldnt get it done, until they got Gasol. Think maybe Chandler is having the same kind of effect for Dallas this year.

 

And Dirk is certainly better than Gasol. Pierce, Garnett, Allen, when they won the title or any of the Detroit players. So as usual, wrong again.

My god you are effing high. I'm not talking about who looks best now. Hell, who hasn't looked better than Shaq for the last few years?

 

I'm saying that the when Duncan lead his team to the title, it wasn't because everyone else on his team was better than everyone who Dirk has been playing with, it was because Duncan was better than Dirk has been. When Kobe led Gasol and Oden to the championship the last few years, it wasn't because Gasol plus Oden were better than anyone Dirk has been paired with, it was because Kobe was better than Dirk has ever been. And the reason why Miami beat them in the finals that year was because Wade did something that Dirk did not. That is, go bat-chight for 4 straight games, averaging about 40pts a game. So, again, it wasn't like Wade was being swaddled in the comforts of a stacked roster while Dirk was out there toiling on his own. In fact, it was sort of the opposite. And yet Wade, put a team full of "glue guys" (if you want to call Jason Williams a "gule guy) and a center past his prime on his back and took them to the title. Something Dirk has had the chances to do and yet has, thus far, not done. With better players around him.

 

That is it. Part of the reason why the Mavericks have not been good enough to win it all, is because basically everyone who has won it all during Dirk's career has had a player on their team that was better than Dirk has been.

 

Oh, and Odom, Fischer, and Butler? Dude, has Dirk had a team that bad around him even once? At least since he's been the man? Of course Kobe's not going to lead that crew all the way (or even close).

Edited May 23, 2011 by detlef

[Ursa Majoris]

What does any of this have to with the notion that Dirk was a flopper, or had no spine (which is the only part I really have a problem with)?

 

I was one of two or three that said Dirk has grown a spine this year and I stand by it. No stats will back up my view but they won't disprove it either, just as stats will not show up that guy who you just know isn't putting in 100% on your local NFL team. Even then I am not saying Dirk wasn't making 100% effort - I am saying that he could be intimidated more easily than some other players of his stature, felt sorry for himself easily (it showed on his face) and also showed the opposition when he was hurt (and tried to make out he was when he wasn't). These are body language and facial expression failings, not statistical ones. This year, none of that is in evidence.

 

And Dirk is certainly better than Gasol. Pierce, Garnett, Allen, when they won the title or any of the Detroit players. So as usual, wrong again.

Um.......nope, certainly not in Garnett's case. Garnett holds all-round records for consistency in multiple simultaneous stats that may never be challenged.

[Brent]

My god you are effing high. I'm not talking about who looks best now. Hell, who hasn't looked better than Shaq for the last few years?

 

I'm saying that the when Duncan lead his team to the title, it wasn't because everyone else on his team was better than everyone who Dirk has been playing with, it was because Duncan was better than Dirk has been. When Kobe led Gasol and Oden to the championship the last few years, it wasn't because Gasol plus Oden were better than anyone Dirk has been paired with, it was because Kobe was better than Dirk has ever been. And the reason why Miami beat them in the finals that year was because Wade did something that Dirk did not. That is, go bat-chight for 4 straight games, averaging about 40pts a game. So, again, it wasn't like Wade was being swaddled in the comforts of a stacked roster while Dirk was out there toiling on his own. In fact, it was sort of the opposite. And yet Wade, put a team full of "glue guys" (if you want to call Jason Williams a "gule guy) and a center past his prime on his back and took them to the title. Something Dirk has had the chances to do and yet has, thus far, not done. With better players around him.

 

That is it. Part of the reason why the Mavericks have not been good enough to win it all, is because basically everyone who has won it all during Dirk's career has had a player on their team that was better than Dirk has been.

 

I admit I cant keep up with your waffling from 10 years ago, to yesterday, to now. Forgive me if I confused what the hell you are trying to say with who is better than who when. You dont even know yourself what you are saying, how do you expect others to keep up with your rambling

 

Gasol is better than any player Dallas than Dirk, has ever had in the last decade besides this yr. And its not even close.

 

Ginobilli is better than any player outside Dirk on any Mavs roster over the past 8 years. And its not even close.

 

To say Duncan is better than Dirk is questionable at best. He is a better defensive player by far, but Dirk is a better offensive player. But the Spurs were a defensive oriented team, full of talent. Dallas played no defense and were beaten over and over by the Spurs as much because they had less talented teams, than Dirk vs Duncan.

 

Kobe is one of the best players in NBA history. No question in his prime he is and was better than Dirk. But he never knocked Dirk out of the playoffs, as the only time these 2 teams have met with those players is this yr, and Dallas swept the Lakers. So regardless who was better in their prime, Kobe didnt beat Dallas in the playoffs.

 

Wade literally got the whole team in foul trouble, and Avery was outcoached by Pat Riley. Its that simple. Dallas was probably the more talented team, but that team was mentally and physically weak. And I admitted repeatedly they choked this series away, like the Golden State series the next year.

 

But Dallas has routinely overachieved in the playoffs. Even this yr, everyone was picking Portland to beat them, then the Lakers. Only now are they getting picked because its a young OKC team. But I can bet you anything, regardless who they play in the Finals, most talking heads will pick them to lose. hell even I expected them to lose to the Lakers, and I am not picking them to beat either team in the East, though Im rooting like hell for them.

Edited May 23, 2011 by Brent

[detlef]

I admit I cant keep up with your waffling from 10 years ago, to yesterday, to now. Forgive me if I confused what the hell you are trying to say with who is better than who when. You dont even know yourself what you are saying, how do you expect others to keep up with your rambling

I honestly think you're the only one who can't keep up. It's really not a hard concept to grasp.

[Gopher]

I was one of two or three that said Dirk has grown a spine this year and I stand by it. No stats will back up my view but they won't disprove it either, just as stats will not show up that guy who you just know isn't putting in 100% on your local NFL team. Even then I am not saying Dirk wasn't making 100% effort - I am saying that he could be intimidated more easily than some other players of his stature, felt sorry for himself easily (it showed on his face) and also showed the opposition when he was hurt (and tried to make out he was when he wasn't). These are body language and facial expression failings, not statistical ones. This year, none of that is in evidence.

 

 

Um.......nope, certainly not in Garnett's case. Garnett holds all-round records for consistency in multiple simultaneous stats that may never be challenged.

Fair enough. I just don't see it... I don't think he's changed dramatically, in the way he plays. Most NBA players feel sorry for themselves, when they think they were fouled/wronged... They even do so when they know they weren't, but might be able to convince the refs that they were. It's become part of the game. Dirk certainly isn't any more guilty of that, than the next guy, in my opinion... Case in point, Gasol, who cries every time something doesn't go his way (he must have learned it from Kobe, when they still got along). And, Dirk has never been a flopper, in the sense that he flops to get fouls called (a la Vlade Divac, Varejeao, etc.).

 

As for body language and facial expressions, I guess I could see where he might be playing with a higher level of confidence than at times in the past. I just don't see that as him being spineless, in the past, as much as he's learned to play to his strengths, and avoid situations where he's outmatched by someone with more athletic ability than he has. Again, it's his style of play... He's a finesse player, playing what is by definition a "power" position.

[Brent]

I honestly think you're the only one who can't keep up. It's really not a hard concept to grasp.

 

 

you waffle back and forth so much, its crazy. Fact is you are wrong at every turn, and change something at every turn to fit your new agenda. And quite frankly I do not care anymore to argue with you. You have no clue about this team, and instead of continuing to argue with you about something you obviously know nothing about, Ill just quit while ahead, since you are not smart enough to quit while behind.

Edited May 23, 2011 by Brent

[Brent]

Fair enough. I just don't see it... I don't think he's changed dramatically, in the way he plays. Most NBA players feel sorry for themselves, when they think they were fouled/wronged... They even do so when they know they weren't, but might be able to convince the refs that they were. It's become part of the game. Dirk certainly isn't any more guilty of that, than the next guy, in my opinion... Case in point, Gasol, who cries every time something doesn't go his way (he must have learned it from Kobe, when they still got along). And, Dirk has never been a flopper, in the sense that he flops to get fouls called (a la Vlade Divac, Varejeao, etc.).

 

As for body language and facial expressions, I guess I could see where he might be playing with a higher level of confidence than at times in the past. I just don't see that as him being spineless, in the past, as much as he's learned to play to his strengths, and avoid situations where he's outmatched by someone with more athletic ability than he has. Again, it's his style of play... He's a finesse player, playing what is by definition a "power" position.

 

 

Karl, its time for us to move on here. Some argue just to argue, and we are feeding it with post after post.

Edited May 23, 2011 by Brent

[detlef]

you waffle back and forth so much, its crazy. Fact is you are wrong at every turn, and change something at every turn to fit your new agenda. And quite frankly I do not care anymore to argue with you. You have no clue about this team, and instead of continuing to argue with you about something you obviously know nothing about, Ill just quit while ahead, since you are not smart enough to quit while behind.

10-4 Good buddy

 

Keep on truckin' and showing people the light.

[Azazello1313]

To say Duncan is better than Dirk is questionable at best.

 

 

let me guess....rick carlisle said it, not you.

[Brent]

 

let me guess....rick carlisle said it, not you.

 

 

How hard is it to post the whole sentence or paragraph in this instance.

 

To say Duncan is better than Dirk is questionable at best. He is a better defensive player by far, but Dirk is a better offensive player. But the Spurs were a defensive oriented team, full of talent. Dallas played no defense and were beaten over and over by the Spurs as much because they had less talented teams, than Dirk vs Duncan.

[Avernus]

I read it... I'm just not buying it. What exactly is he doing, that he wasn't doing before?

 

if you watched the games and not the post game stats, you would know what I mean..

[Avernus]

How hard is it to post the whole sentence or paragraph in this instance.

 

defense wins championships....give me Duncan over Dirk any day of the week....and it's not like Duncan is horrible on offense....Duncan has some offense and his very defensive minded....Dirk is very offensive minded but has little to no defense...

 

easy pick...and same with Garnett....I can't believe this thread is getting out of hand like this...

[Brent]

defense wins championships....give me Duncan over Dirk any day of the week....and it's not like Duncan is horrible on offense....Duncan has some offense and his very defensive minded....Dirk is very offensive minded but has little to no defense...

 

easy pick...and same with Garnett....I can't believe this thread is getting out of hand like this...

 

 

Me either, maybe you and should take Detlef with you on your way out. Then we can root for our teams without having to defend the last decade. Cause really who the hell cares.

[Avernus]

Me either, maybe you and should take Detlef with you on your way out. Then we can root for our teams without having to defend the last decade. Cause really who the hell cares.

 

you really are a douchebag....