Surprise, surprise, surprise

[SEC=UGA]

BC, the issues of chronic poverty dont change from child to adult. People that live in poverty generally are raised in poverty and simply dont have the chances to get themselves out. You have poor people teaching the kids that grow up to be adults in poverty. It is convenient to be dismissive of people by saying that they "made poor life choices" when they have been raised in a environment that doesnt show any hope or way out of their station in life. I am sure that many people here can think of examples when they have had to cut corners and scrimp on budgets. But did any of us REALLY grow up in the kind of poverty that is indicative of these examples? Who here has lived in the "projects", went to an inner city school where the teaching and education was crap, had to deal with gang influences, and were raised by people that had very rudimentary educations at best and minimum wage jobs? How many of us had to work on family farms rather than do homework or study? How many of us at the huddle really came from that background and now are shining beacons of the American ideal? (Y'know, stuff that after school TV specials are made of?) You said "fresh out of college". How many of the people we are talking about will never get an opportunity to graduate high school, let alone attend college?

 

No one likes abuses of the system, be it from any form of fraud or abusing benefits. But until there is a way to break the cycle of poverty, (maybe education grants, better and more targeted use of subsidies to impoverished schools, hell even parenting classes required of you accept child welfare checks) this will remain. You will continue to have children of janitors raising kids to be janitors or fast food workers or landscapers or cashiers or whatever dead end job you want to name.

 

I agree with you on the community service idea, and think that more needs to be done for actual job training to get people OFF public assistance. It certainly doesnt help when there are not jobs to be had that do not pay more than minimum wage and even those jobs are hard to come by.

 

In many cases innercity schools have some of the highest per-pupil funding in their respective states... they shouldn't be getting a crappy education, though, it seems they are. THe same can not be said for rural schools with regard to funding.

 

Yes, being raised in poverty is a bitch, look at Appalachia, those kids, in many cases, have it very tough.

 

But, having been in and around the construction industry for the majority of my life I have seen first hand the results of hard work. There are a large number of people, who I know well, who were raised in impoverished conditions. They grew up in single family households, dropped out of school at 16 and began working in "dead end" jobs and have made a very good life for themselves. It took a while and a great deal of work, laborious work in the heat and cold. Long hours toiling in the sun and stinging wind. A few of them spent time in jails for infractions ranging from battery to drug related crimes. They started out at barely above minimum wage and are now (well, not since the recession) making between $80,000 and $120,000 per year.

 

Another good example are the children of Asian immigrants. They came here speaking a strikingly different language, immersed in what could only be termed as a completely alien culture, mired in poverty as their parents work in "menial", labor intensive jobs. Some of these kids are our best and brightest and the bulk of them achieve as high if not higher than their native born peers. Their poverty rate is well below that of certain native born groups.

 

People can overcome poverty and rise above their designated station in life. I'm not saying that it is easy, but It happens all of the time.

 

Also, if you are working at minimum wage for the bulk of your career, well, there is always the military option. Though, distressingly enough, a large number of the current kids have issues passing the ASVAB.

Edited September 15, 2011 by SEC=UGA

[Azazello1313]

BC, the issues of chronic poverty dont change from child to adult. People that live in poverty generally are raised in poverty and simply dont have the chances to get themselves out. You have poor people teaching the kids that grow up to be adults in poverty. It is convenient to be dismissive of people by saying that they "made poor life choices" when they have been raised in a environment that doesnt show any hope or way out of their station in life. I am sure that many people here can think of examples when they have had to cut corners and scrimp on budgets. But did any of us REALLY grow up in the kind of poverty that is indicative of these examples? Who here has lived in the "projects", went to an inner city school where the teaching and education was crap, had to deal with gang influences, and were raised by people that had very rudimentary educations at best and minimum wage jobs? How many of us had to work on family farms rather than do homework or study? How many of us at the huddle really came from that background and now are shining beacons of the American ideal? (Y'know, stuff that after school TV specials are made of?) You said "fresh out of college". How many of the people we are talking about will never get an opportunity to graduate high school, let alone attend college?

 

No one likes abuses of the system, be it from any form of fraud or abusing benefits. But until there is a way to break the cycle of poverty, (maybe education grants, better and more targeted use of subsidies to impoverished schools, hell even parenting classes required of you accept child welfare checks) this will remain. You will continue to have children of janitors raising kids to be janitors or fast food workers or landscapers or cashiers or whatever dead end job you want to name.

 

I agree with you on the community service idea, and think that more needs to be done for actual job training to get people OFF public assistance. It certainly doesnt help when there are not jobs to be had that do not pay more than minimum wage and even those jobs are hard to come by.

 

I've come to believe strongly that the more binding constraints are cultural rather than economic. the really worrisome and foreboding inequality in our nation is in values. education, hard work, fidelity, family, honesty, modesty -- those who are raised in a cultural environment that values these things do well in life compared with those who are not. our societal efforts at alleviating poverty and inequality have focused on the economic aspects, and there is a compelling argument to be made that this emphasis has allowed, or even actively caused, the cultural poverty and inequality to get drastically worse.

[bpwallace49]

Never said it didnt happen . . . but pointing out exceptions to the rule does not eliminate the rule for the majority of non-after school special success stories.

 

But you are speaking of exceptions to the rule, and not the majority. Just like people that say "I know of a welfare scammer that drinks red bull! Lets end all public aid!" No need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

 

Your Asian comparison is pretty far off. If you are talking work ethic, that yet AGAIN, is something instilled through upbringing and the environment they grow up in. If they are kids of parents that had the drive to come to a new country and bust their azz to make a better life for their kids, what kind of values are instituted? But if you are raised in poverty, by people that were raised in poverty, that can create the cycle that is extremely difficult to break out of.

[MojoMan]

Undeniably there is a core of lazy shiftless bastards who are managing to game the system. No doubt about it. But we have had this discussion over and over and over here.

 

Earlier it was said that even if the rich were taxed 100%, the government would only be paid for for a few hours. That figure may be up for debate but the point is that taxing the rich is seen by people against such a move as pointless (as well as immoral).

 

In exactly the same way, the same people see this mythological army of people all battened on to the poor taxpayer. The fact is that removing that "army" is like taking a leak in the Pacific - meaningless.

 

Any idea how many people comprise the army of lazy shiftless bastards?

[SEC=UGA]

Never said it didnt happen . . . but pointing out exceptions to the rule does not eliminate the rule for the majority of non-after school special success stories.

 

But you are speaking of exceptions to the rule, and not the majority. Just like people that say "I know of a welfare scammer that drinks red bull! Lets end all public aid!" No need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

 

Your Asian comparison is pretty far off. If you are talking work ethic, that yet AGAIN, is something instilled through upbringing and the environment they grow up in. If they are kids of parents that had the drive to come to a new country and bust their azz to make a better life for their kids, what kind of values are instituted? But if you are raised in poverty, by people that were raised in poverty, that can create the cycle that is extremely difficult to break out of.

 

So, the American system has utterly failed impoverished native born americans but is a shining beacon for those from SE Asia? Got it.

 

Evidently, then, we should placate and continue to coddle those who, due to being culturally inferior, can not pull themselves out of poverty?

 

Gie me an answer on what we do to improve their station in life, then. How do you propose that we help these people out of poverty?

[SEC=UGA]

Any idea how many people comprise the army of lazy shiftless bastards?

 

I can better answer your question if you give me an age group.

[Yukon Cornelius]

Now, the kids I think deserve the assistance more than the adults, they did not make the choices that put them in that situation.

+1

[Yukon Cornelius]

Any idea how many people comprise the army of lazy shiftless bastards?

17

[bpwallace49]

So, the American system has utterly failed impoverished native born americans but is a shining beacon for those from SE Asia? Got it.

 

Evidently, then, we should placate and continue to coddle those who, due to being culturally inferior, can not pull themselves out of poverty?

 

Gie me an answer on what we do to improve their station in life, then. How do you propose that we help these people out of poverty?

 

Tax you and Perch more. Really the only answer.

 

 

 

There is a difference between acknowledging there is a disconnect between peoples perception of the vast army of red bull swilling, smoking, escalade drivin, people on welfare and the reality that the vast majority dont fit in that box and having silver bullet solutions. You are comparing kids whose parents struck out to a new continent of their own choosing to make a new life to kids of people that are raised in generational poverty. Do you really think that is a fair comparison?

 

I like Az's post quite a bit, and it makes many good points. But what do you do when there is a lack of values being taught becasue the parents were not raised in a "culture" that emphasized those values? We get back to the paradox of the educational system that places the blame at the feet of the parents. If that is the case (and there is a very very strong argumnet to be made that it is) then how can it be fixed?

[cliaz]

Do you still work for Verizon? If so, probably not very representative of the economy as a whole becase the mobile phone market, read smart phone tech, is one of a few areas that has actually exploded in the last few years. I would say any growth you've had is absolutely related to demand.

 

 

Actually, I do not work for the wireless side of Verizon. I am in the professional services. We do not see the wireless money. Many people do not realize this but Verizon is actually 3 companies:

 

Verizon Wireline = Union side, FIOS, traditional LAND lines

Verizon Wireless = mobile phone sector

Verizon Business = professional services, global complex service delivery

 

Verizon wireless is a monster when it comes to revenue. Our side did okay last year but no where even close to half of what wireless did.

[SEC=UGA]

Tax you and Perch more. Really the only answer.

 

 

 

There is a difference between acknowledging there is a disconnect between peoples perception of the vast army of red bull swilling, smoking, escalade drivin, people on welfare and the reality that the vast majority dont fit in that box and having silver bullet solutions. You are comparing kids whose parents struck out to a new continent of their own choosing to make a new life to kids of people that are raised in generational poverty. Do you really think that is a fair comparison?

 

I like Az's post quite a bit, and it makes many good points. But what do you do when there is a lack of values being taught becasue the parents were not raised in a "culture" that emphasized those values? We get back to the paradox of the educational system that places the blame at the feet of the parents. If that is the case (and there is a very very strong argumnet to be made that it is) then how can it be fixed?

 

You think the peoplewho leave everything to come to the US weren't likely raised in generational poverty? Yes, I think it is fair to compare the two as the newly immigrated family has a MUCH tougher time than do native born Americans.

 

And with regard to Az's post, culture does have a great deal to do with it. But by constantly coddling these people and allowing that culture to survive (it is actually spreading) does us no good. Throwing money at the problem is not going to solve the problem.

[MojoMan]

We are no longer the rich America of 1960-2000.

 

Question for those who favor the redistribution of wealth...Should those who cannot financially contribute to the system provide services to those who are contributing ? (where they are capable)?

 

My question in other words, Should there be a disencentive to sucking the the gummint teat?

 

Should there be a consequence for making bad (financial) life choices?

Edited September 15, 2011 by MojoMan

[Ursa Majoris]

Any idea how many people comprise the army of lazy shiftless bastards?

No idea but the point was, as I am sure you understand, that constant focus on the issue of welfare mooching isn't going to extract us from our economic problems any more than adding 2% to the taxation of people over a certain income is going to. In large measure, both these things are extremely divisive, designed more to foster envy and hate than to have any practical purpose.

 

Do I think welfare leeches should be stopped / made to work for it? Yes, absolutely.

Do I think the tax system has become unbalanced in favor of the "rich"? Yes, I do.

Do I think addressing either or both these things solves the problems? Hell, no.

[bushwacked]

We are no longer the rich America of 1960-2000.

 

Question for those who favor the redistribution of wealth...Should those who cannot financially contribute to the system provide services to those who are contributing ? (where they are capable)?

 

My question in other words, Should there be a disencentive to sucking the the gummint teat?

 

Should there be a consequence for making bad (financial) life choices?

 

The strawman is strong in this one.

[Goopster24]

We are no longer the rich America of 1960-2000.

 

Question for those who favor the redistribution of wealth...Should those who cannot financially contribute to the system provide services to those who are contributing ? (where they are capable)?

 

My question in other words, Should there be a disencentive to sucking the the gummint teat?

 

Should there be a consequence for making bad (financial) life choices?

 

Were you in in the crowd Monday night for the Tea Party Republican debates yelling, "LET THEM DIE!"?

[Yukon Cornelius]

Were you in in the crowd Monday night for the Tea Party Republican debates yelling, "LET THEM DIE!"?

[MojoMan]

So bushwacked and goop feel that we should redistribute wealth in an unfettered fashion because to do otherwise condemns a hypothetical 30-year old irresponsible person to death?

Edited September 15, 2011 by MojoMan

[Goopster24]

So bushwacked and goop feel that we should redistribute wealth in an unfettered fashion because to do otherwise condemns hypothetical 30-year old irresponsible people to death?

 

I didn't say anything. I just asked a question dude.

[bushwacked]

Were you in in the crowd Monday night for the Tea Party Republican debates yelling, "LET THEM DIE!"?

 

Patriots!

[MojoMan]

I didn't say anything. I just asked a question dude.

 

No, I wasn't.

[Goopster24]

Mojo, I SERIOUSLY don't mean this the wrong way...

 

I'm the son of immigrant parents who had to learn English. I'm also the son of parents who lost their house to the bank (sure, I can say partly because of mis-management of money). I'm also the son of parents who are forking over their future AND mine to put me through college so I can achieve "the American Dream."

 

I'm young, irresponsible and dumb. Please reiterate your solution to America's fiasco. I'm SERIOUSLY trying to see your side. Do I support everything Democrats are trying to do? No. Do I see better solutions by Republicans? I don't think so. But I could be wrong. Please explain sir. Again, I'm only 23.

[bpwallace49]

Mojo, I SERIOUSLY don't mean this the wrong way...

 

I'm the son of immigrant parents who had to learn English. I'm also the son of parents who lost their house to the bank (sure, I can say partly because of mis-management of money). I'm also the son of parents who are forking over their future AND mine to put me through college so I can achieve "the American Dream."

 

I'm young, irresponsible and dumb. Please reiterate your solution to America's fiasco. I'm SERIOUSLY trying to see your side. Do I support everything Democrats are trying to do? No. Do I see better solutions by Republicans? I don't think so. But I could be wrong. Please explain sir. Again, I'm only 23.

 

You clearly are making bad life choices. Sucks to be you.

 

[Goopster24]

You clearly are making bad life choices. Sucks to be you.

 

 

Duh!

 

Being a Bears fan doesn't help...

[Ursa Majoris]

Patriots!

Don't get me started on THAT one.

[SayItAintSoJoe]

"Job creators in America basically are on strike." - John Boehner

 

Please, oh great job creators, please release all these jobs you are holding on to.