Tebow stinks.

[STL Fan]

umm, how do you draw that conclusion? I think BB's logic isn't that the best college numbers will make him a good pro, but rather that "the complete dismissal of him as a passing QB seems ludicrous".

 

True, but then you also must consider the type of passes he was asked to throw in college. Pro throws or not? If you're going to point to his college stats, it bears looking at.

[Bier Meister]

I want to see Tebow play. If he can improve, I want to see him continue as the DEN starting QB. He's certainly shown some ability in crunch time of games, as well as some real leadership. That's much more than Orton has shown. Orton will never be anything more than a game manager. He has to be surrounded with good talent to win games. Orton is terrible in pressure situations - that's well documented. Orton's had plenty of chances to win games here with the same team (actually better with Lloyd) that Tebow has, and failed miserably. It was miserable for Bronco fans watching Orton continue to find ways to fail at the end of games.

 

i think game manager for orton sums it up nicely. i don't think he has what it take to carry an offense (we saw that in chi and den). when he had tools around him, he surpassed my expectations of him..posted good ff numbers. i believe cutler is a much better qb and while throwing a lot of ints his last year there, i didn't entirely fault him for it...everyone and their mother knew the broncos would be throwing the ball due to injury at rb and def...and the def was pretty bad. we all knew orton wouldn't do as well in den. i like tebow and hope he can succeed. fortunately they are now in a position to see what his baseline is.

 

That said, if Tebow can't improve and be a good starting QB, I want to see him kicked to the curb and see DEN burn a 1st round pick in the 2012 draft on one of the franchise QBs coming out. If Tebow can't be a good or better starting QB, I'd prefer to see his tenure end in DEN and then allow DEN to move forward. Screw the lost 1st round pick - if he can't be a starter for a decade, find someone who can and do it next year at the latest.

 

this is what concerns me about tebow.... we all heard about how he was such a hard worker and trying really hard in practice since he entered the draft. well, he really looked terrible yesterday. he is very athletic, but cannot throw the ball well. he missed on a lot of open targets (even short throws) all day. an optimist would say "he can only get better." but a realist says "why can't you hit an open running back at 5 yards away with no one around him? or an open streaking decker (not taz)?

 

I do know that Tebow is a lightning rod, and that he draws criticism from people who want to see him fail for reasons that have nothing to do with football. I think Hoge is one of those guys, so anything he says about Tebow is extremely jaded, IMO.

 

i am not one of those people

 

I do know that Tebow holds the SEC record for the league's most accurate passer, so the complete dismissal of him as a passing QB seems ludicrous - we're talking about the SEC record holder, not some scrub conference guy who happened to play okay. I think he may be a hard enough worker and have enough of the "it" factor to succeed in the league as a starter, but I'm willing to watch, withhold judgment, and see whether he improves as the season goes on.

 

...whcih has to be frustrating watching him miss time and time again

 

I do know that Tebow does not fit the stereotype of a pocket passer, so if you want to make use of his abilities, you need to put him in motion after the snap, use him in the shotgun a bit, allow him to freelance some. Shanahan used a rolling pocket for Plummer and did pretty well - I'm not sure what prevents that now. What DEN did yesterday as far as a gameplan was completely counterproductive to utilizing Tebow's abilities. DEN's O-line was awful yesterday also. The line's protection of Tebow was as bad as Tebow's passing up to the last 5 1/2 minutes. I also know that Tebow's play yesterday was atrocious, regardless of whatever excuse anyone wants to make for him.

 

The guy can put up some top notch FF numbers. He's a mid-range or better FF QB1 until he proves otherwise.

 

absolutely. without injury or getting benched, i don't see his floor being less than 14 per week with a ceiling around 30. i am only getting into this with you because you dismissed a lot of similar factors leading to losses or poor performance by orton, but used then for tebow. hell, he is just a kid and we can't know the the real potential until he play a bit. it just doesn't look good.... this week.

[delusions of grandeur]

I do know that Tebow holds the SEC record for the league's most accurate passer, so the complete dismissal of him as a passing QB seems ludicrous - we're talking about the SEC record holder, not some scrub conference guy who happened to play okay.

How do you define accuracy? If you just mean completing passes, then yes, in a spread offense doesn't require accurate NFL throws, and I suppose the basketball jump passes were right on the money... They just aren't gonna work with tiny NFL windows.

 

I do know that Tebow is a lightning rod, and that he draws criticism from people who want to see him fail for reasons that have nothing to do with football. I think Hoge is one of those guys, so anything he says about Tebow is extremely jaded, IMO.

 

Anything else that others attribute to me regarding Tebow are coming from their own imaginations and prejudices.

More than anything, this is what rubs me the wrong way with regard to your opinions on Tebow... It seems that any time anyone disagrees that they don't think he has the mechanics to make NFL throws (because we all know you can't just get by on your legs in this league), you keep painting it as if they're somehow biased against him more than you've been biased for him, and just being haters...

 

That's simply not the case for the vast majority of Tebow "haters". I only hate Auburn marginally less than Florida, yet I made the case in the preseason that Cam has a far better chance of being great in this league than Tebow does, if he could just improve on his innaccurate throws at the combine (which he has)...

 

As I've said in the past, I don't feel he's earned the starting gig, or shown that he's progressing into a successful NFL QB. Had Orton not sucked so bad, they had no business throwing him into the wolves just to confirm what anyone with eyes already knew; that he's not ready (if he ever even will be).

 

I do agree completely that he can be a good fantasy QB as long as he's starting, but that could very well be short-lived if he continues to do so bad in real-life that he gets benched. I mean, you're playing the worst team in the league on a day when they're inexplicably honoring your best college season, and you can't even show any life at all for 3 quarters until they were probably just keeping the play in front of them and giving you room (I'd have to assume with a 15 point lead). Doesn't bode much confidence for stronger matchups (which would be seemingly every game compared to MIA).

 

Maybe calling plays to his strengths could help some, but I think this move just reeks of Fox and Elway being able to say "see, I told you so" to the fans and just move on. Like I've also said before, they're not doing anyone any favors by throwing him out there before he's ready and earned the starting gig, other than their draft position.

 

You can keep making all the excuses you want for why he's struggled, but if the guy hasn't learned to make NFL throws in over a year with the team and having changed his throwing motion and everything, it seems very unlikely that all of the sudden the light bulb comes on and he's able to do something he appears physically incapable of: making accurate NFL throws on a consistent and reliable basis. Until he shows otherwise, I guess you're just going to have to hear it from all us delusional "haters".

[detlef]

I do know that Tebow is a lightning rod, and that he draws criticism from people who want to see him fail for reasons that have nothing to do with football. I think Hoge is one of those guys, so anything he says about Tebow is extremely jaded, IMO.

 

 

 

That about sums it up for me. Anything else that others attribute to me regarding Tebow are coming from their own imaginations and prejudices.

1) I am so effing sick of the "people hate him because he's too good" theory. I just heard it on the radio the other day as well and was going to post here about it. Here's the thing, the only time I ever hear that argument is when people claim "a bunch of people" think that way. But I've actually never heard anyone actually say it. I'd be a perfect candidate to be that guy because of my disdain for organized religion. But my aversion to the church is not because of dudes like Tebow, it's because of hypocrites and crooks that the church associates with. A guy who is genuinely good? Why would I have any problem with that? I truly think the claim that people are rooting against him for non-football reasons is just myopia rearing its head. Because it discounts the numerous valid issues that people may have with his actual ability on the field. It's just conveniently defining someone who doesn't think he's got the goods into an absurd theory like he's too good a person. That way, the nay-sayers can just be dismissed.

 

And I honestly think that Hoge simply does not feel like he has the tools to do the job. I don't think it's because of some irrational hate. Mostly because that's just an idiotic theory.

 

2) My "imagination and prejudice" comes from the fact that every time someone says "boo" about Tebow, you're right there, Billy on the Spot, to argue with them. Hell, someone made some crack about how maybe they should just play him the last few minutes of the game, I'm assuming as a joke, and you were right there, ready to go. So, perhaps you're totally neutral in this manner, but your actions certainly say otherwise. Oh, and saying that, if he tanks, you want him gone, is hardly the same thing.

 

ETA: Bier brought up something else I wanted to say. People rush to his defense because this was only his 4th game. Well, yes, but he's also had a season and a half of film sessions, practice, and being around the NFL. That's a hell of a lot more than many QBs who looked far better than he has out the gate had. They claim we're trying to hold him to a different standard, but we're not. They are. We're holding him to the standard that has now been created. Where guys like Dalton and Ponder and Newton step in right away and actually play the position like they have some business being out there.

 

ETA part II: And for the record, he's on one of my FF teams, so I'd love it if he catches fire down the stretch.

Edited October 24, 2011 by detlef

[Azazello1313]

I agree with every word BB just wrote. I think it is more likely than not that tebow will fail to find long term success as an NFL QB and be out of the league in a few years. and if the broncos had another decent QB on the roster and/or any hope of making the playoffs, it would be pretty foolish to put him out there. but the broncos are not in that position, so I believe it would be even more foolish NOT to put him out there the rest of the year and see what happens. the guy certainly has some gifts. can they translate to success as an NFL QB? it's going to take watching the rest of the games this season to even begin to answer that question. and hey, bottom line, he's 1-0. and the louder his detractors get, the more I find myself pulling for him.

[delusions of grandeur]

I agree with BB's latest justification for why Tebow should be starting.

Fixed for accuracy

[STL Fan]

1) I am so effing sick of the "people hate him because he's too good" theory. I just heard it on the radio the other day as well and was going to post here about it. Here's the thing, the only time I ever hear that argument is when people claim "a bunch of people" think that way. But I've actually never heard anyone actually say it. I'd be a perfect candidate to be that guy because of my disdain for organized religion. But my aversion to the church is not because of dudes like Tebow, it's because of hypocrites and crooks that the church associates with. A guy who is genuinely good? Why would I have any problem with that? I truly think the claim that people are rooting against him for non-football reasons is just myopia rearing its head. Because it discounts the numerous valid issues that people may have with his actual ability on the field. It's just conveniently defining someone who doesn't think he's got the goods into an absurd theory like he's too good a person. That way, the nay-sayers can just be dismissed.

 

And I honestly think that Hoge simply does not feel like he has the tools to do the job. I don't think it's because of some irrational hate. Mostly because that's just an idiotic theory.

 

2) My "imagination and prejudice" comes from the fact that every time someone says "boo" about Tebow, you're right there, Billy on the Spot, to argue with them. Hell, someone made some crack about how maybe they should just play him the last few minutes of the game, I'm assuming as a joke, and you were right there, ready to go. So, perhaps you're totally neutral in this manner, but your actions certainly say otherwise. Oh, and saying that, if he tanks, you want him gone, is hardly the same thing.

 

This is spot on, in my opinion, and is the Christian version of playing the race card. When anyone criticizes him, some of his defenders say that it's personal and because he's a religious guy. Impossible to prove otherwise, and the accusation sticks to you. Sarah Palin is the Grand Master of this strategy.

 

To be completely fair, BB acknowledges that Tebow is not beyond criticism, and that his play most of the game was horrid.

[detlef]

I agree with every word BB just wrote.

So you too, have met the phantom army of people who root against him because he's a Christian?

[Azazello1313]

So you too, have met the phantom army of people who root against him because he's a Christian?

 

I think it's more the fact that he's a "big name", heisman winner and all that. his skill set is atypical, which makes his NFL future very much of an enigma where many people feel strongly one way or the other. lots of folks are just drawn to him, and that usually means others are predisposed to negativity toward him. he is just a polarizing figure, he brings out strong opinions. the religion factor plays into it on various levels, but it's far from the only factor or even a predominant one.

Edited October 24, 2011 by Azazello1313

[STL Fan]

I think it's more the fact that he's a "big name", heisman winner and all that. his skill set is atypical, which makes his NFL future very much of an enigma where many people feel strongly one way or the other. lots of folks are just drawn to him, and that usually means others are predisposed to negativity toward him. he is just a polarizing figure, he brings out strong opinions. the religion factor plays into it on various levels, but it's far from the only factor or even a predominant one.

 

So by this logic, you think Andrew Luck will face similar negativity because just about everyone in the world thinks he's the next coming of Johnny Unitas? Because I don't think so.

 

I think the problem is that many of Tebow's supporters take it personally when someone questions his abilities. They are so enthralled by his persona, and his intangibles, that any criticism is almost literally seen as heresy.

[delusions of grandeur]

I think it's more the fact that he's a "big name", heisman winner and all that. his skill set is atypical, which makes his NFL future very much of an enigma where many people feel strongly one way or the other. lots of folks are just drawn to him, and that usually means others are predisposed to negativity toward him. he is just a polarizing figure, he brings out strong opinions. the religion factor plays into it on various levels, but it's far from the only factor or even a predominant one.

But I think the biggest difference is that far more of the people who don't think he'll succeed don't think so for any other reason than his lack of throwing skills that are vital for success at QB in the NFL.. Of course there will be people who are naturally biased on both sides (as a UGA fan, I'm one to some degree), but I find that far more often it's people who are overlooking his shortcomings because they like them, than people who are overlooking his strengths because they hate him.

 

I also think that's a total BS excuse that it's because he's a polarizing figure that so many people don't believe in him. Being a polarizing figure is an effect, not a cause of why people don't believe in him, and for most of the doubters it has nothing to do with anything off the field (as should be abundantly clear by his shortcomings ON the field).

[STL Fan]

So you too, have met the phantom army of people who root against him because he's a Christian?

 

It just occurs to me that if this army existed, where were they when Kurt Warner played? He thanked Jesus in every single interview he ever gave, and unapologetically so. He wasn't criticized as a football player because of it.

[Azazello1313]

So by this logic, you think Andrew Luck will face similar negativity because just about everyone in the world thinks he's the next coming of Johnny Unitas?

 

I don't see how that follows my logic even remotely.

[Azazello1313]

But I think the biggest difference is that far more of the people who don't think he'll succeed don't think so for any other reason than his lack of throwing skills that are vital for success at QB in the NFL.. Of course there will be people who are naturally biased on both sides (as a UGA fan, I'm one to some degree), but I find that far more often it's people who are overlooking his shortcomings because they like them, than people who are overlooking his strengths because they hate him.

 

I also think that's a total BS excuse that it's because he's a polarizing figure that so many people don't believe in him. Being a polarizing figure is an effect, not a cause of why people don't believe in him, and for most of the doubters it has nothing to do with anything off the field (as should be abundantly clear by his shortcomings ON the field).

 

maybe you missed this part of my post: "his skill set is atypical, which makes his NFL future very much of an enigma where many people feel strongly one way or the other". I am talking about his skill set "ON the field".

[STL Fan]

I don't see how that follows my logic even remotely.

 

I, too, thought your main argument was the "hipster" argument, that some people will just choose to hate whatever is popular, hence the hate for Tebow because he has many fanatical fans. By that logic Andrew Luck is in for a crapstorm, because he's way more popular than Tebow.

[delusions of grandeur]

maybe you missed this part of my post: "his skill set is atypical, which makes his NFL future very much of an enigma where many people feel strongly one way or the other". I am talking about his skill set "ON the field".

Well, you hid it in nicely within your reasoning of him being a "big name Heisman winner", that "people are predisposed to feel negatively towards him" because other people like him, and that religion is a factor too. Those were the parts I was disputing, and I don't think they're factors to anyone but casual fans (though I can only speak for the doubters here).

 

That his playing style is contreversial is a valid discussion, but we seem to have veered from that legitimate discussion to making excuses for why people doubt he can be a franchise QB.

 

It's kinda like the Tea-party and Occupy movements. You can say that the constituents are "racist" or "over-entitled idealistic dumb kids", but that doesn't make the issues of fiscal responsiblity and rampant corruption any less valid, does it? To use biases/preconceptions as an excuse for opposition is to completely overlook the very real issues with his style of play.

[Hugh B Tool]

Two words come to mind after seeing Timothy play yesterday: Bobby Douglas. Though Douglas had a stronger arm.

 

Broncos have to play the guy. Time will tell if he lasts for long. Broncos are not stupid at all for doing this. Heck, think of how many more Tebow spamshirts were bought in the last 24 hours.

 

Love him, H8 him, or fall in the middle, he will be the Broncos QB for the forseeable future. Or until he gets injured playing sandlot football

[detlef]

It just occurs to me that if this army existed, where were they when Kurt Warner played? He thanked Jesus in every single interview he ever gave, and unapologetically so. He wasn't criticized as a football player because of it.

Seriously, anyone who roots against openly religious pro athletes is going to have precious few people to pull for.

[yo mama]

So you too, have met the phantom army of people who root against him because he's a Christian?

I'll admit it - I'm immediately suspicious of any dude who says he isn't into sex before marriage. NTTATWT.

[Hugh B Tool]

I'll admit it - I'm immediately suspicious of any dude who says he isn't into sex before marriage. NTTATWT.

 

 

Well, it certainly loosk like he does his share of wrist curls. In and out of the weight room.

[detlef]

I think it's more the fact that he's a "big name", heisman winner and all that. his skill set is atypical, which makes his NFL future very much of an enigma where many people feel strongly one way or the other. lots of folks are just drawn to him, and that usually means others are predisposed to negativity toward him. he is just a polarizing figure, he brings out strong opinions. the religion factor plays into it on various levels, but it's far from the only factor or even a predominant one.

I think that implying religion has anything to do with why people are rooting against him is a disservice to logic and reality. It's about as close to a non-factor as you can find.

 

Like STL Fan pointed out, what about every other deeply religious player?

 

I'll go a step further. I don't think many people are rooting against him at all. I think there are plenty who don't think he's going to be good, and I suppose some of them are big enough dicks that they'd rather have someone fail at his life's ambition than be personally proven wrong. But the vast majority of these people who are described as "haters" or pulling against him, simply don't think he's going to be good.

 

Now, he is certainly polarizing, but that may come from the fact that few players who have had so many question marks about their ability to play the position at the NFL level have had as devout a following. So there's the argument, but it's coming from the other side. People wouldn't feel compelled to bother saying why they don't think he'll make it if there wasn't such a massive ground-swell in favor of him. The reason why Colt McCoy, for instance does not inspire these threads is because nobody gives two poops about him. There's not a bunch of people buying his jersey before he ever took a snap or, like Turf Smurf, saying he's going to the HOF. So there's less reason to dissect him.

[slainte]

who gives a tacoe about his religious convictions. his play on the field is far from pretty. did he get the 'w'? absolutely. but i watched christian (pun not intended) ponder play against a team other than miami and he looked years ahead of this 'controversial' and 'polarizing' figure.

 

his playing style (if you'd calll it that) is not controversial. it is simply inept. his movement in the pocket is less than fluid. defenses are eventually going to pick up on the fact that he locks on to a specific target and doesn't make the neccessary reads to utilize others.

 

i agree with earlier comments in regards to his lack of progression. a year and a half is a long time to improve your game. and not doing so makes him ignorant.

 

all that said, i can understand why broncos fans called for him. they wanted things shaken up and figure that he gives them a better chance to win. i'm glad they got that yesterday. they've been through a lot with orton and the wall he apparently hit.

 

while i'm not high on him personally, i hope he gives what the fan base what they want. . .and maybe he has already - change.

[Azazello1313]

I, too, thought your main argument was the "hipster" argument, that some people will just choose to hate whatever is popular, hence the hate for Tebow because he has many fanatical fans. By that logic Andrew Luck is in for a crapstorm, because he's way more popular than Tebow.

Well, you hid it in nicely within your reasoning of him being a "big name Heisman winner", that "people are predisposed to feel negatively towards him" because other people like him, and that religion is a factor too. Those were the parts I was disputing, and I don't think they're factors to anyone but casual fans (though I can only speak for the doubters here).

 

detlef answered this for me:

People wouldn't feel compelled to bother saying why they don't think he'll make it if there wasn't such a massive ground-swell in favor of him. The reason why Colt McCoy, for instance does not inspire these threads is because nobody gives two poops about him. There's not a bunch of people buying his jersey before he ever took a snap or, like Turf Smurf, saying he's going to the HOF. So there's less reason to dissect him.

[MTSuper7]

Alex Smith was a Heisman candidate like Tebow under the same head coach in college in Urban Meyer. Is it crazy to think that Tebow is probably headed for a similar level of success (or lack thereof) in the NFL as Alex Smith? Smith seems to have turned a corner a bit this season under Jim Harbaugh. But it has taken him quite a while to get where he is which still isn't much more than an efficient game manager type of QB. But the win in Detroit is something I don't think we'd have seen prior to this year from Alex Smith. My point in bringing up Smith is that he might give us insight into the path that Tebow might take in the NFL. In short, it's probably going to be ugly for a while.

[Azazello1313]

who gives a tacoe about his religious convictions.

 

a few people