Greece

[Ursa Majoris]

So, as everyone knows, the Greeks are busily wrecking the world economy due to their desire to not pay taxes (tax evasion is endemic) and retire at the age of 26. They lied their way into the Eurozone by presenting a false set of books, and everyone in the Eurozone knew it. Now the chickens have come home to roost. One Wall Street firm has already gone tits up due to owning Greek bonds that aren't worth the paper they are printed on.

 

So the Europeans get together billions of Euros and try to bail out the Greeks, authors of their own demise, because the stupid Euro and other banks have bought so much worthless Greek debt that some of them will likely fall over if the Greeks default, which they surely will. Now Greece says it's going to have a referendum (in January, no less, the bone idle bastards!!) and the whole rescue plan is kiboshed plus world markets go into a tailspin.

 

Can anyone explain why the Europeans don't simply cut Greece loose and prop up their own banks directly instead of funneling the cash through Greece? Greece could declare bankruptcy and return to the drachma, the Germans and others could use the money to save their own banks and focus on more important problems such as Italy. I don't get why it's so important to hang on to a bunch of feckless lazy buffoons as the Greeks.

[Savage Beatings]

Coming soon to a OWS location near you.

[i_am_the_swammi]

access to kickass gyros?

[CowboyGal2011]

Greece, to big to fail. Work extra hard, they need your tax dollars.

[peepinmofo]

So, as everyone knows, the Greeks are busily wrecking the world economy due to their desire to not pay taxes (tax evasion is endemic) and retire at the age of 26. They lied their way into the Eurozone by presenting a false set of books, and everyone in the Eurozone knew it. Now the chickens have come home to roost. One Wall Street firm has already gone tits up due to owning Greek bonds that aren't worth the paper they are printed on.

 

So the Europeans get together billions of Euros and try to bail out the Greeks, authors of their own demise, because the stupid Euro and other banks have bought so much worthless Greek debt that some of them will likely fall over if the Greeks default, which they surely will. Now Greece says it's going to have a referendum (in January, no less, the bone idle bastards!!) and the whole rescue plan is kiboshed plus world markets go into a tailspin.

 

Can anyone explain why the Europeans don't simply cut Greece loose and prop up their own banks directly instead of funneling the cash through Greece? Greece could declare bankruptcy and return to the drachma, the Germans and others could use the money to save their own banks and focus on more important problems such as Italy. I don't get why it's so important to hang on to a bunch of feckless lazy buffoons as the Greeks.

So when the conspiracy theorist "nutjobs" of the world make claims like, "the dollar will die", "the economy will completely collapse", "the market will crash" etc., maybe they arent so crazy afterall.

[Savage Beatings]

Seriously though, why throw good money after bad? They already tried bailing out Greece (to the tune of $153 BIllion). An now that they have burned through that money, they want more... BUT they are still unwilling to give up any of their unfunded benefits. F them! If they can't figure it out by now, then let them wither and die on the vine.

[matt770]

Question -- when my local gentleman's club booth attendant says she "speaks Greek", what's that about?

[Hugh 0ne]

Question -- when my local gentleman's club booth attendant says she "speaks Greek", what's that about?

 

She doesn't pay taxes.

[Deathpig]

Question -- when my local gentleman's club booth attendant says she "speaks Greek", what's that about?

 

I have a place I go to figure out jargon like that I don't understand.

 

Perhaps this will help.

[matt770]

I have a place I go to figure out jargon like that I don't understand.

 

Perhaps this will help.

Okay, good to know I gave her what she wanted.

[bushwacked]

She doesn't pay taxes.

 

[Ursa Majoris]

Seriously though, why throw good money after bad? They already tried bailing out Greece (to the tune of $153 BIllion). An now that they have burned through that money, they want more... BUT they are still unwilling to give up any of their unfunded benefits. F them! If they can't figure it out by now, then let them wither and die on the vine.

That's exactly my point. It would surely be much cheaper to simply cut them loose.

[Savage Beatings]

And I know that we'll hear about how we have to protect the banks and other institutions that have heavily invested in Greece and could go under as a result of all of this... but why would we protect those banks and institutions when they clearly have made poor investment decisions? Shouldn't they have to face the consequences of those poor decisions? Is there no risk at all in investment banking any more, or do we just cover all losses now?

[Joessfl]

"Creature of Jekyll Island" Its an entertaining but sickening history of US and world banking.

 

A book everyone should read.

 

ETA: I think it was suggested by someone a year or two ago. I read it because of that post. So thank you to whomever that was.

Edited November 2, 2011 by Joessfl

[Big John]

"Creature of Jekyll Island" Its an entertaining but sickening history of US and world banking.

 

A book everyone should read.

 

ETA: I think it was suggested by someone a year or two ago. I read it because of that post. So thank you to whomever that was.

Avernus from June

[Joessfl]

Avernus from June

 

You sir, are amazing with that searchy/linky stuff.

[CaP'N GRuNGe]

And I know that we'll hear about how we have to protect the banks and other institutions that have heavily invested in Greece and could go under as a result of all of this... but why would we protect those banks and institutions when they clearly have made poor investment decisions? Shouldn't they have to face the consequences of those poor decisions? Is there no risk at all in investment banking any more, or do we just cover all losses now?

 

Because the banks, etc own our politicians and its only going to get worse with the horrendous SCOTUS ruling in Citizens United. Money = free speech = access = power now more than ever.

[MrTed46]

this thread sucks

[SheikYerbuti]

One Wall Street firm has already gone tits up due to owning Greek bonds that aren't worth the paper they are printed on.

 

And who exactly forced that firm to go long Greek bonds with no hedge (and with customer $ that was supposed to be segregated)?

 

That's like sticking your hand in a fire and blaming the fire for your burns.

[BeeR]

Why throw good money after bad? Why give money to those who didn't earn and don't deserve it? Why fail to hold people accountable?

 

It's the American way baby.

[Ursa Majoris]

And who exactly forced that firm to go long Greek bonds with no hedge (and with customer $ that was supposed to be segregated)?

 

That's like sticking your hand in a fire and blaming the fire for your burns.

Couldn't agree more. Not a lot of sympathy around here for some overreaching Wall Street turd. Still, that detail was meant as part of the overall narrative about the whole Greek fiasco - why not just cut the bastards loose?

[Perchoutofwater]

No more bailing out countries (foreign aid), no more bailing out banks (or any business), and no more bailing out individuals. No more bailouts period. Countries, businesses, and individuals need to be responsible for their own bad decisions. I have a hard enough time paying for my own bad decisions. I'm sick of our government reaching in to my pocket to pay for everyone else's.

[SheikYerbuti]

No more bailing out countries (foreign aid), no more bailing out banks (or any business), and no more bailing out individuals. No more bailouts period. Countries, businesses, and individuals need to be responsible for their own bad decisions. I have a hard enough time paying for my own bad decisions. I'm sick of our government reaching in to my pocket to pay for everyone else's.

 

I'm sure Muck or Wiegie or def Brent would be the right person to illustrate this, but here's the likely scenario if they do it your way:

 

1. Greece defaults. They stop paying their sovereign debts and their internal payrolls. They most likely get thrown out of the Euro.

 

2. Greece's inability to pay their bonds sets off a chain reaction whereby Italy, Ireland, Portugal and Spain all go insolvent. Credit default swaps are triggered all across the continent, and you already know from 2008 how that goes.

 

3. The chain reaction from there would blow Europe's stock markets back to the stone age. Even if the US had minimal exposure to European sovereign debt (which Geithner claims is the case), the pin action from the European markets would chop the legs out of the US market, sending us into a deep recession, and your 401K into the toilet.

 

No one likes the idea of another bailout, especially one for a foreign country. That's a paper tiger argument. The problem is, the cost of not bailing out Greece is potentially WAY more expensive than a bailout. A disorderly Eurozone default would make Lehman Brothers look like your local Wendy's running out of french fries.

[Ursa Majoris]

I'm sure Muck or Wiegie or def Brent would be the right person to illustrate this, but here's the likely scenario if they do it your way:

 

1. Greece defaults. They stop paying their sovereign debts and their internal payrolls. They most likely get thrown out of the Euro.

 

2. Greece's inability to pay their bonds sets off a chain reaction whereby Italy, Ireland, Portugal and Spain all go insolvent. Credit default swaps are triggered all across the continent, and you already know from 2008 how that goes.

 

3. The chain reaction from there would blow Europe's stock markets back to the stone age. Even if the US had minimal exposure to European sovereign debt (which Geithner claims is the case), the pin action from the European markets would chop the legs out of the US market, sending us into a deep recession, and your 401K into the toilet.

 

No one likes the idea of another bailout, especially one for a foreign country. That's a paper tiger argument. The problem is, the cost of not bailing out Greece is potentially WAY more expensive than a bailout. A disorderly Eurozone default would make Lehman Brothers look like your local Wendy's running out of french fries.

It could be stopped between step one and step two if Greece was booted off the lifeboat and Europe propped up the rest. Right now they are trying to do them all and it makes sense to sacrifice Greece to focus resources to save the rest, fending off a chain reaction.

[Brentastic]

I remember back in May 09 when I made my first claim that we had entered a deflationary depression. Back then there were a handful of huddlers (west va, dmarc, avernus) who thought it made sense and a whole bunch of others who flamed this unusual view of the US/Global economy. I think most people are now realizing that a deflationary depression is the likely outcome. I hope most of you have been loading up on firearms, food, water and cash. There's no telling how ugly it's going to get so it's best to prepare for the worst. But hopefully the end result will be a changed world in which greed is not the dictator.

 

Good luck fellow huddlers.