Gun Control

[matt770]

The theme from Bonanza is playing in my head.

[SEC=UGA]

The theme from Bonanza is playing in my head.

 

 

They make pills to prevent that.

 

BTW, don't break out yer weapons until you get those pills.

Edited July 26, 2012 by SEC=UGA

[Perchoutofwater]

Countries that have been closely monitored by U.S. gun rights groups are Australia, the UK, and Canada. These countries are particularly relevant to the United States due to their similarities in government and social values. These countries have imposed restrictive gun-laws that include registration, and handgun bans. Interestingly, these bans have been directly followed with spikes in the rates of breaking and entering, assaults, and other crimes.

A 1998 study by the US Department of Justice found that there were 40 percent more muggings in England, and burglary rates were almost 100 percent higher than in the United States. And, counter-intuitively, rates of crimes using handguns is on the rise. In 1999-2000, crimes using handguns were at a seven year high. Apparently, criminals were easily able to access guns, but law enforcement officers and law-abiding citizens were not allowed.

In Australia, the government banned weapons in 1996, after a publicized shooting. Immediately after the ban, armed robberies rose by 73 percent, unarmed robberies by 28 percent, kidnappings by 38 percent, assaults by 17 percent, and manslaughter by 29 percent. This was reported on the Web site of the Australian Bureau of Statistics in January, 2000.

• 
   
  

 

[Perchoutofwater]

 

• There are 129 million privately owned firearms in the United States according to the September, 1997 FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin.
  
• There are an estimated 65 million handguns in private circulation in the United States. (FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin, 9/1997)
  
• The fastest growing group of gun owners is women, according to Gary Kleck in Targeting Guns.
  
• Firearms are used defensively roughly 2.5 million times per year, more than four times as many as criminal uses. This amounts to 2,575 lives protected for every life lost to a gun (Targeting Guns).
  
• The accidental firearm death rate is at it's lowest point since records were started nearly 100 years ago according to Injury Facts 2000 from the national Safety Council.
  
• Motor-vehicle accidents, drowning, suffocation, and fires each kill more children under the age of fifteen than do firearms.
  
• Less than one handgun in 6,500 is ever used in a homicide.
  

 

[Perchoutofwater]

Also... I keep on hearing from law enforcement folk on how they rather see assault rifles made illegal for anyone but law enforcement and the military. Any thoughts on this?

 

 

This is what the media and liberal politicians want you to believe. Please read this, and you might see things in a different light. Please note it is has footnotes for all the statistics.

 

The Police Viewpoint

Although police statistics are the most reliable source of information about actual criminal use of "assault weapons," another potential source of information is police officers.

To a person who acquired all his information from publications like Newsweek, it would be clear that the police unanimously (and desperately) want "assault weapon" prohibition. And in fact, most major city police chiefs do support some kind of restrictive legislation. But even though many media consider the viewpoints of big-city chiefs to represent the viewpoint of all law enforcement, chiefs do not speak for rank-and-file officers any more than Lee Iacocca speaks for all the auto workers.

Police firearms examiners (who catalogue and study all crime guns seized by their department) tell a very different story from the politically-minded chiefs. All seven of the firearms examiners in Dade County (Miami), Florida, have stated that the use of "assault weapons" in shootings in the county has been declining throughout the last decade. [87] According to George R. Wilson, the chief of the firearms section of the Washington, D.C., Metropolitan Police, drug dealers most commonly use sophisticated nine millimeter pistols. [88] Lieutenant Reginald Smith, a spokesman for the District's police department stated, that "assault weapons" were seen by his department "occasionally, but it's rare. The vast majority of weapons we see are revolvers or pistols." [89] Detective Jimmy L. Trahin of the Los Angeles Police Department's Firearms/Forensics Ballistics Unit testified before Congress that he did not consider "assault weapons" to be the weapons of choice of L.A. criminals. [90] (V.G. Gunises, whose SEY YES organization in South Central Los Angeles works to help former gang members, pointed out that most Los Angeles gang killings involve handguns. [91] ) Lieutenant James Moran, the commander of the New York City Police Department Ballistics Unit, told reporters that NYPD experience was quite different from some press claims. "A rifle is not what is usually used by the criminals. They'll have handguns or sawed off shotguns. . . . These drug dealers are more inclined to use the 9 mm pistol than go to a cumbersome AK-47 rifle." [92]

One reason that the firearms examiners have not been heard in the prohibition debate is the some politicians have deliberately avoided asking them for their opinion. An internal memorandum from the California Attorney General's office revealed that as the Roberti-Roos "assault weapon" prohibition was being rushed through the California legislature, Senator Roberti and Attorney General Van de Kamp made a conscious decision: "Information on assault weapons would not be sought from forensic laboratories as it was unlikely to support the theses on which the legislation would be based." [93]

Some police chiefs have attempted to suppress dissenting voices in their department. For example, in San Jose, former police chief Joseph McNamara wrote fund-raising letters for Handgun Control, Inc., on official city stationary, and claimed to represent what "every police officer" believed. In 1989, one of McNamara's officers, a firearms instructor named Leroy Pyle, was subpoenaed by the California legislature and legally required to testify before that body. Officer Pyle did so, on his own time, and out of uniform. The next day, Pyle was suspended from duty, and McNamara attempted to fire him. [94] In Cincinnati, Lieutenant Harry Thomas has been harassed for speaking out (on his own time and out of uniform) against the gun prohibition policies favored by the police hierarchy.

To counter the statements of pro-rights rank-and-file officers such as the firearms examiners or Leroy Pyle, Handgun Control, Inc. often points to the Fraternal Order of Police. The FOP is the largest rank-and-file police organization in the country; its head, Dewey Stokes, supports "assault weapon" control, and Stokes was recently re-elected to his position despite a challenge from a pro-gun officer. [95]

Handgun Control's respect for the views of the FOP appears, however, to be a sometimes thing. In New Jersey, the state chapter of the FOP opposed Governor Florio's severe "assault weapon" ban (which even applied to BB guns). National FOP President Dewey Stokes backed up the New Jersey chapter, because the New Jersey ban was so extreme. Nevertheless, Handgun Control pushed for (and won) the draconian New Jersey ban, claiming all the while to be responding to the cries for help from law enforcement.

While the largest rank-and-file police organization, the FOP supports "assault weapon" control (at least for controls less severe than New Jersey's), the second-largest rank-and-file organization, the American Federation of Police, opposes such controls. Unfortunately, neither organization has polled its membership on the subject. (FOP head Stokes has been repeatedly asked to conduct a poll, and has refused.)

What limited polling of law enforcement has been done does not support the claims of Handgun Control, Inc., that all the police want "assault weapon" prohibition. The Florida chapter of the Fraternal Order of Police polled its membership, and found 75% opposed to an "assault weapon" ban. The most recent poll of police opinion was carried out by Law Enforcement Technology magazine in March 1991. The results were reported in the July/August 1991 issue: "75% do not favor gun control legislation ... with street officers opposing it by as much as 85 %." In particular, 78.7% opposed a ban on "assault weapons." (About 37 % of top management supported a ban, and about 11% of street officers.) [96]

Every spring the National Association of Chiefs of Police (NACOP) conducts a nationwide survey of command-rank police officers (not just top management or chiefs). The survey includes all command-rank officers, including those who do not belong to NACOP. Ninety-five percent said that they believed a citizen should have the right to purchase any type of firearm for sport or self-defense.

Neither the Law Enforcement Technology nor the NACOP surveys may be statistically precise, since the surveys were compiled from respondents who voluntarily mailed in a reply. But at the very least, the surveys indicate that Handgun Control, Inc's claim to have the near-unanimous support of the law enforcement community is false.

In sum, while "assault weapons" may appear menacing, both local and national crime statistics do not indicate that the so-called "assault rifles" are a serious crime or drug problem.

 

ENDNOTES

 

87.Florida Assault Weapon Commission Report (Tallahassee: Florida Dept. of State, 1990), at 156-57.

88.Wall St. J., April 7, 1989, at A12, col. 3.

89.Wash. Post, March 6, 1989, at B1, col. 6.

90.SENATE REPORT, supra, note 6, at 18.

91.L.A. Times, Feb. 8, 1989, at I20, col. 4.

92.N.Y. Times, Feb. 5, 1989, at E26, col. 5.

93.Memorandum to Patrick Kenady, Assistant Attorney General, February 14, 1991, at 2.

94.The formal pretext for suspending Pyle was that he had appeared (not in uniform) in a video explaining the difference between automatics and semiautomatics, and in that video had stated that he was a San Jose police officer, but had not expressly stated that his views were not the official views of his department. The rather severe discipline meted out to Pyle seemed odd in light of the fact that Chief McNamara himself wrote political fundraising letters for Handgun Control, Inc. on official city stationary.

95.One percent of the approximately 225,000 Fraternal Order of Police members attended the convention, and Stokes won the vote 68% of the attendees. It might be that delegates to the police conventions, like delegates to NRA conventions, or to Democratic or Republican conventions, hold views more extreme than held by the membership as a whole.

96.Two thousand police officers participated in the Law Enforcement Technology magazine survey, only a few hundred less than voted at the Fraternal Order of Police convention. Because participation in the Law Enforcement Technology poll or attendance at the FOP convention were both affirmative acts of a non-random sample, neither the Law Enforcement Technology poll nor the FOP convention vote is necessarily a statistically valid sample of police opinion.

 

 

Edited July 26, 2012 by Perchoutofwater

[rocknrobn26]

 

Edited July 26, 2012 by rocknrobn26

[stevegrab]

"Simple solution to skyjacking, just arm all the passengers" hmm where have heard that before. I'd love to see the CHIPS AHOY! that happens on a plane stranded on the runway for 4 hours when all the passengers are armed.

[Perchoutofwater]

"Simple solution to skyjacking, just arm all the passengers" hmm where have heard that before. I'd love to see the CHIPS AHOY! that happens on a plane stranded on the runway for 4 hours when all the passengers are armed.

 

 

I doubt you'll find many that would be in favor of allowing guns to be carried on a plane. I know I wouldn't advocate it. I do think pilots and flight attendants should have the right to carry provided they use the right type of ammunition.

[Hugh 0ne]

I doubt you'll find many that would be in favor of allowing guns to be carried on a plane. I know I wouldn't advocate it. I do think pilots and flight attendants should have the right to carry provided they use the right type of ammunition.

 

 

That would put a loaded gun in the same cabin as all the passengers. You think that's a good idea? And the Pilot's are locked in to the cockpit, what good would having a loaded gun do them?

[Perchoutofwater]

That would put a loaded gun in the same cabin as all the passengers. You think that's a good idea? And the Pilot's are locked in to the cockpit, what good would having a loaded gun do them?

 

 

I don't think it is a bad idea, if the flight attendant is trained it using it, and if they are using frangible bullets.

[Clubfoothead]

Feeling safe is not a right, just like being successful is not a right. I have a right to be armed based on the second amendment.

 

 

That is incorrect and you know it.

[Perchoutofwater]

That is incorrect and you know it.

 

 

It most certainly is. I

[delusions of grandeur]

That is incorrect and you know it.

 

So let me see if I can get your convenient arguments straight.

 

According to you, I don't have the right to be unhealthy, because the constitution doesn't explicitly say I do; Yet somehow I don't have the right to what the constitution explicitly says I have a right to, a right to bear arms.

 

So I again have to come to the conclusion that you don't believe anything is a right unless you and the state happen to believe it is. I have no idea why they even bothered laying out a bill of rights then....

 

Yet healthcare is somehow a right because those who pushed it as "not a tax" found out that a tax was the only way it would be found constitutional.... Well, I'll give it to ya, you sure do argue like a lawyer....

[stevegrab]

The constitution says you have a right to bear arms. It doesn't say that the government cannot impose laws and regulations that limit those rights. Without any limts anybody (including violent criminal, people with mental issues, etc.) would still be allowed to have guns.

[delusions of grandeur]

The constitution says you have a right to bear arms. It doesn't say that the government cannot impose laws and regulations that limit those rights. Without any limts anybody (including violent criminal, people with mental issues, etc.) would still be allowed to have guns.

 

And I respect their right to those restrictions if their community so chooses, as well as private property owners not allowing guns in their establishments. Hell, New York can ban all the guns they want, ban sodas, I support states rights, but I really don't like someone from another state telling me what my rights are and aren't in my communites, particularly not a right that by and large my state supports.

Edited July 26, 2012 by delusions of grandeur

[detlef]

Perch, I was not looking for an apology for previously insulting me for not owning a gun. I honestly don't care. And, well, I do think you're paranoid (and needlessly aggressive) and stand by that statement whether or not you find it insulting. I also think you're sort of full of it when you make such a big deal about protecting your pets and family from feral animals. At church? At soccer games? Dude, just own it. You like packing heat around people.

 

Regardless, I only brought the bit about previously insulting me for not owning a gun because it doesn't exactly mesh well with your apparent, "Hey I don't care what you do, just let me and my guns be." Because you see me not owning one as a flaw.

[Perchoutofwater]

Detlef, we live in different areas. I know I've shot two hogs in the last few years that have posed a threat to either me, or my animals. Whether you believe it or not, I really don't care. With regard to when and where I carry, well you never know when you are going to need it. I doubt many people in that theater thought they needed one. I don't necessarily like "packing heat". I've done it so long it is not uncomfortable like it was at first. It is still a PIA sometimes. When it is hot the holster makes it hotter. Having to take it off and secure it the car when I go to certain restriction is a pain. I wouldn't say I like packing heat at all. I just look at it as necessary, similar to wearing a seat belt. As long as I live in a rural are (hopefully the rest of my life) and as long as I'm making large cash deposits on a regular basis, I'm going to protect myself, my family, my animals, and my assets.

 

With regard to you hoping the police or someone else will protect you rather than protecting yourself, that is your deal. I really don't care. I think you are stupid, naive, or both for thinking you don't need one, but that is just one man's opinion. I sincerely hope you never need one.

[SEC=UGA]

The constitution says you have a right to bear arms. It doesn't say that the government cannot impose laws and regulations that limit those rights. Without any limts anybody (including violent criminal, people with mental issues, etc.) would still be allowed to have guns.

 

 

Sooo... then limiting reproductive rights of wimmen is kosher also. Got it.

[Square]

I wouldn't say I like packing heat at all. I just look at it as necessary, similar to wearing a seat belt. As long as I live in a rural are (hopefully the rest of my life) and as long as I'm making large cash deposits on a regular basis, I'm going to protect myself, my family, my animals, and my assets.

 

With regard to you hoping the police or someone else will protect you rather than protecting yourself, that is your deal. I really don't care. I think you are stupid, naive, or both for thinking you don't need one, but that is just one man's opinion. I sincerely hope you never need one.

Do you have any statistics on how many feral hogs, dogs, and muggings kill people in your area annually? I'd like to see what you are up against.

[Perchoutofwater]

Do you have any statistics on how many feral hogs, dogs, and muggings kill people in your area annually? I'd like to see what you are up against.

 

 

I live in East Texas. You can google as well as I can. I know a guy that was killed by a hog while deer hunting back in 2006 about 30 miles from my house. A guy that used to work for me had an aunt who had a wreck on a county road. She flipped her car and was unable to get out without assistance. Before assistance arrived hogs had eaten 4 or her toes. There are typically about 5-10 attacks a year that are reported on people. There have to be several times that number not reported. I never reported the one that came at me, just shot it. I never reported the one that went after my dog, I just shot it. Out in rural area wild dogs are a problem as well. I've never shot one. I have shot a rabid coyote and a rabid fox.

 

You can look up the crime numbers.

[detlef]

Detlef, we live in different areas. I know I've shot two hogs in the last few years that have posed a threat to either me, or my animals. Whether you believe it or not, I really don't care. With regard to when and where I carry, well you never know when you are going to need it. I doubt many people in that theater thought they needed one. I don't necessarily like "packing heat". I've done it so long it is not uncomfortable like it was at first. It is still a PIA sometimes. When it is hot the holster makes it hotter. Having to take it off and secure it the car when I go to certain restriction is a pain. I wouldn't say I like packing heat at all. I just look at it as necessary, similar to wearing a seat belt. As long as I live in a rural are (hopefully the rest of my life) and as long as I'm making large cash deposits on a regular basis, I'm going to protect myself, my family, my animals, and my assets.

 

With regard to you hoping the police or someone else will protect you rather than protecting yourself, that is your deal. I really don't care. I think you are stupid, naive, or both for thinking you don't need one, but that is just one man's opinion. I sincerely hope you never need one.

 

Listen, I'm not doubting the whole killing wild animals deal, rather that I'm rather certain you could cover that part of it without endeavoring into gun ownership with quite the relish that you do. So, I'm just calling BS on that being the primary deal, especially in light of you specifically mentioning taking your concealed weapon to your daughter's soccer games, to church, and to the movies. I mean, there's rural and there's rural.

 

As far as the rest. I'm going to have to take your word for it. I have no idea how tough the mean streets of East Texas are. After all, I've lived a rather sheltered life, spending most of my adult life living in the white picket fenced, bucolic, sleepy hallows of Oakland, CA, NY City, and Durham, NC. And I admit that living in such sheltered communities goes a long way in explaining why I've never once faced a situation where carrying a gun would have ever made a situation better for me.

[delusions of grandeur]

Do you have any statistics on how many feral hogs, dogs, and muggings kill people in your area annually? I'd like to see what you are up against.

 

I've been out to both east and west Texas back when I was filming for an outdoor show, and I will say that Perch is absolutely correct about hogs being a widespread problem out there.

 

I've seen packs of as many as 20+ on hunts, some that are several hundred pounds. Actually when on deer scouting trips was the one time in my life where I carried a pistol on my hip for this exact reason... It is entirely unsafe to walk to and from a stand without one, cuz a mama hog with her young in particular will tear you up.

 

As for crime, there are of course plenty of other factors besides guns in play, but I know I'd never go onto someone's property in Texas or South GA without being invited, and I think that's the point....

 

And regardless, criminal activity will generally be much tougher to predict than are the conditions where you might encounter a hog.... If you expect crime because of past crimes in the area, then it may be more reason to have/carry a gun more, but not expecting a crime to happen doesn't necessarily make having a gun less warranted. Thus, I think it misses the point completely to try to think you can predict unpredictable crimes.

Edited July 26, 2012 by delusions of grandeur

[matt770]

I think even if I was well-trained in the use of firearms, if it really started to go down, I'd be shaking so bad that I'd end up Plaxicoing myself or missing the bad guy by 10 feet. Also I'd rather be murdered than accidentally shoot an innocent bystander because I mistook a situation or my aim was off, and live with that on my conscience and possibly go to prison and/or get sued.

[SEC=UGA]

I think even if I was well-trained in the use of firearms, if it really started to go down, I'd be shaking so bad that I'd end up Plaxicoing myself or missing the bad guy by 10 feet. Also I'd rather be murdered than accidentally shoot an innocent bystander because I mistook a situation or my aim was off, and live with that on my conscience and possibly go to prison and/or get sued.

 

 

Click

[matt770]

Click

 

You were disturbingly quick with that link.