The Irish Doggy Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 You want to legalize drugs, we understand that. Actually, I don't really want to legalize but decriminalize similar to Portugal maybe. There are studies that link gun violence more to the black markets than anything else. It's the lesser of two evils. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 I get the feeling that you're only interested in arguing, versus discussing and learning something new. fwiw, I don't advocate violating the law. Just trying to enlighten you as to the thinking some have and how they are "right" in a righteous way... which can land one in jail. But it seems like you're not interested in considering a different, possibly historical, point of view. And with that... Based on your post I assumed you did advocate breaking the law (taking a gun into a business that prohibits weapons), not just explaining why those who do it think they are right. I fully recognize that some extreme 2nd ammendment rights people think they should be allowed to own any firearm they want and take them anywhere they want. But they're wrong, and criminals when they break those laws. We can consider historical points of view, but that doesn't change the laws. Its simply justification/rationalization for breaking the law. I think many speed limits are set artificially law, and all about generating revenue. I often speed (5-10 or maybe more over), when I get caught I face the consequences. I don't try to explain how irrational the laws are and how I'm within my birth rights to drive as fast as I want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clubfoothead Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 (edited) While gun sales, per day, are up 40% here in the Greater Denver area since the movie theater horrific event, that's not why people CC. It's not the anomalies like what just happened, but rather the too often muggings that end in tragedy, the rapists, and other more typical evil people and crimes. Did you hear about the other (unrelated) attempted massacre, ALSO here in Aurora, that happened over the weekend? If not, it's probably cuz the shooter killed one person before someone who was concealed carrying shot the shooter within seconds. You aren't getting it. I don't give a $hit. All I hear about in these debates is what makes people who want to walk around armed to the teeth feel better. Well that doesn't make me feel safer. Did you read my link about the jacka$$ with an edit - CHP not MDL (got acronyms mixed up) who shot himself in Walmart last night and injured two when the bullet bounced off the floor? You have a story and I have a story. Whoopty. Edited July 24, 2012 by Clubfoothead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big John Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 yes. Then how do you door the bikers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 Hey, Steve, what other examples would you like for me to use to demonstrate that restrictive gun laws don't curtail actual gun violence (seriously, I'll take the time to look it up.) If half of the guns in the US "vanished" what would happen? Well, answer me this, half of who's guns? You'll find that a very miniscule percentage of legally owned handguns are used in violent crimes. Or we can look at this way... Jesus has an AK, a glock 9 and a S&W .40, none of which he purchased in a legal manner. If he lost 1.5 of his guns, he would still have 1.5 guns. With this 1.5 gun, he would still pop a cap in Caesar's ass and if he is a decent shot he would kill him. Now, to the next one, I've lived in and around Kennesaw for most of my life. While it would be a stretch to say "everyone" in Kennesaw has a gun in their house, I would hazard a guess that a large % of households own a fire arm. The % of households has probably dropped over the past 14 years, but the total number of weapons has probably increased dramatically and is probably higher than the national average. Interestingly enough, there is still a very low murder/gun violence rate. Which takes us back to the idea that, hey, guess what, just because there are an ass load of guns in an area doesn't necessarily mean that more people are going to be killed by guns. And while you are correct that this law has never been enforced, I think you see that even with lax gun restrictions you don't always see a spike in gun related violence. When you state that you want fewer guns, why is that? Even with fewer guns, guns are still going to find their way into the hands of the criminal element; gang members, drug dealers/smugglers, and other assorted criminals. While tragic, incidents like the one that occurred in CO, where some nut job who was legally able to purchase a weapon shoots up a theater, make up less than .01% of the gun fatalities each year. But due to this, you want to restrict the rights of the law abiding public to purchase guns. You did hit the nail on the head at the end, though. We live in a violent society, but, that is not the fault of firearms, that is a fault of culture. And don't be mistaken, when I decide to carry my pistola with me, it is because I am going into an area in which this culture lives. Why, because they have guns too. And, again, the reason why fewer guns won't help is because the only people who will have fewer guns will be the law abiding citizen (or the victim, if you will.) Half of the 300 million guns in the US, everybody's legal, illegal (excluding military and law enforcement). If there were only 150 million guns don't you think there would be fewer shootings? Well at least we agree on one thing, the violent nature of society. I don't blame it on guns, but the guns certainly make it easier for people to carry out large scale attacks like the shooting in Aurora. (And please don't people start telling me how somebody could just build a bomb instead, because it isn't as easy as getting access to and using a gun.) I'm not sure that more gun laws are the answer. A while back after another shooting some people were discussing clip sizes and how nobody needs a 100 round or larger clip. And somebody remarked "if you outlaw it people will just make their own", again like that is as easy as buying something. I'm not sure what the answer is to stopping these crazed people from going out and killing a bunch of others when they snap. I don't know if more gun laws would help, but I'm also pretty sure that arming more people and allowing CHL's to carry anywhere they want is the answer either. I'm getting that some have a very different view of guns since they grew up around them. But at the same time many of us didn't, and we see them as mostly dangerous things that are meant for killing others. There's cases like this, accidents in the home, and other stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 I'll have to review my local laws, but I've checked a few times recently and while the city has declared it illegal to CC in a store that prohibits it via signage, the state says it's okay. In other words, laws are often confusing and gray and I support someone's right to do what they feel is right when faced with uncertainty. as for your comment on artificially low speed limits, I agree, but aren't you just justification/rationalization also? No, because I'm not saying I'm right to speed, or not breaking laws. I'm not hiding behind "the constitution trumps all other laws". I just accept the penalty when caught. (Last time I was lucky and got a written warning.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clubfoothead Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 lol I'd be willing to be 10 bucks that if DMD was watching the 10:00 pm news last night, he knew I would post that story here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt770 Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 I think death row should be a game preserve where wealthy hunters, contest winners and victims' families can stalk and shoot the condemned with rifles. I haven't yet worked out all the kinks, but please discuss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 are you saying that gun owners who are caught don't accept the penalty? No, I wouldn't know as I've never heard cases of them breaking these laws and being caught. But your post and other views I've heard from some gun owners basically align with "I can take my gun anywhere I want, nobody can tell me not to bring a gun in their business/building." That is saying the law doesn't apply to them. None of them ever say "well yeah I know I'm breaking the law and will be punished." That is why I gave Perch credit for expressing that view, since I rarely hear it. Then there's the whole "if only somebody there had a gun." I heard this after Columbine, the Va Tech shooting, Aurora theatre, even a high school shooting here in Ohio (Mentor HS) where a kid shot 4 (killing 3). As if the solution is more armed people, carrying their guns in public schools, universities and movie theatres. I don't think it makes things safer, just increases the chance that some gun owner flips out and shoots somebody (don't tell me it doesn't happen, Google Matt Warmus). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 Lordopie Yes I saw that story of the 71yo guy, and your reference to the mass shooting that was stopped in that area. I suppose those things happen, but they are not that common and not a reason to allow guns everywhere. Its no better a solution than more gun laws. I just wish it would all stop, senseless violence by cowards who use guns to take out their anger on others. I know the guns don't do the killing, but they sure make it a lot easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMD Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 I'd be willing to be 10 bucks that if DMD was watching the 10:00 pm news last night, he knew I would post that story here. The great thing was that he ran. For no reason, the guy ran. He had an accident and probably would not have been in any trouble but he ran. I am not sure what we are arguing anymore. In Colorado, you can have a CHL and obviously no one was carrying or at least used one. It would not occur to me to carry one to a packed movie theater if I did have a CHL. No one is forcing anyone to carry and no one had one there. So changing any laws would have had no effect on what happened either way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clubfoothead Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 The great thing was that he ran. For no reason, the guy ran. He had an accident and probably would not have been in any trouble but he ran. +1. I'm not really arguing anything I don't think. I just get nervous when a bunch of people who don't normally carry guns start carringguns in response to an isolated, horrible incident. I can agree that it as reactionary and knee-jerk as unnecessarily infringing on the Second Amendment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duchess Jack Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 interesting data http://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonoberholtzer/2012/07/24/we-have-a-lot-of-guns/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEC=UGA Posted July 25, 2012 Author Share Posted July 25, 2012 interesting data http://www.forbes.co...-a-lot-of-guns/ According to those maps, the oceans are an extremely deadly place loaded with gun owners. Very interesting article, BTW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 I respectfully but strongly disagree. An armed citizen - a rational law abiding one - would not just start shooting unless it was very obvious who the shooter was and that shooting at him would not hit someone else. Otherwise, do not shoot or even draw your gun. The fact that no one else had a weapon there allowed him to kill 12 people and injure 30+ more. He freely sprayed the crowd. Is it really better to allow a movie theater full of people to turn into a bloodbath instead of someone trying to stop him? This is another case of some nutcase being allowed to massacre people and there being no way to stop him. Honestly, I cannot fathom being satisfied that there was no one else there with a weapon that could have stopped him. If it could have saved one life it was worth it. How could it have been any worse than it already was? But the status quo in Colorado allows for someone to have been there with a concealed weapon. It just so happens that nobody was. I will allow that it is possible that the right person in the right place, with a gun, could have cut this horrible act short. But I think it is a massive, massive leap to assume that it would. And, given how hard gun-advocacy groups fight any control at all, I'll have a hard time being convinced that each and every person who we legally allow to concealed carry is as "rational" as you claim. At this point in the game, we basically have a body of evidence that includes shooting sprees that may have been cut short had a well-trained and rational person with a gun been around. The question remains, however, that once we reach a high enough number of people with concealed carry to increase the odds of having one around in these cases, that we won't be dipping into a less-reliable pool of gun-owners and opening up a brand new set of issues where a lot of good-intended and armed people escalate issues that may have not ended in bloodshed to begin with. At this point, however, both sides can only speculate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh 0ne Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 The question remains, however, that once we reach a high enough number of people with concealed carry to increase the odds of having one around in these cases, that we won't be dipping into a less-reliable pool of gun-owners and opening up a brand new set of issues where a lot of good-intended and armed people escalate issues that may have not ended in bloodshed to begin with. Uh, can you say George Zimmerman? I own a gun which I use for sport and home protection. If I want to buy more guns I should be able to as long as I clear all security requirements. I do not believe citizens should be able to carry concealed weapons in public places. I think assualt rifles should be banned, as I can't see of any reason a person would need an assault rifle with a 100 round clip, period. My Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMD Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Uh, can you say George Zimmerman? I own a gun which I use for sport and home protection. If I want to buy more guns I should be able to as long as I clear all security requirements. I do not believe citizens should be able to carry concealed weapons in public places. I think assualt rifles should be banned, as I can't see of any reason a person would need an assault rifle with a 100 round clip, period. My The clip is a separate thing from the gun. I own the exact rifle that he had but I do not have 100 round clips (more accurately it is a drum and the one he had jammed anyway). I use the rifle for hunting and target shooting and general plinking. The only difference between an "assault" rifle and any other rifle is that it is black I guess. Bullets come out just the same no matter what the rifle looks like. I have several 30 round and 20 round clips which are nice when you are target shooting since you do not have to lose your bearing to exchange clips as often. Literally every one of my friends have a "black rifle". If you want to shoot a bunch of people, pretty much any gun would do. Banning "assault" rifles is a feel good measure which does nothing as it did not the first time and was subsequently overturned. I believe most of the people shot in CO came from the buckshot from the shotgun if that matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEC=UGA Posted July 25, 2012 Author Share Posted July 25, 2012 I believe most of the people shot in CO came from the buckshot from the shotgun if that matters. Yep, if you really want carnage two semi-auto 12 gauges with shell extensions on them would do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 factually incorrect. Is concealed carry not allowed in Colorado? It seems like it is. Here's a list of places that you can't bring your concealed weapon: Places off-limits when carrying: 1. Any place prohibited by federal law (e.g. federal offices or courthouse) 2. Any property of public school grades kindergarten through 12, unless the firearm remains inside a container in a locked vehicle 3. Any public building that prohibits ALL weapons which posts guards and permanent metal detectors at all entrances and requires all entrants to surrender handguns to security personnel before entry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 I already covered this in Post #124. I'm rather amazed that the city and state haven't gotten their story straight on this yet. As much as I'm not a fan of the concept, I'd still prefer to know one way or another what the deal is. And given how gun-rights advocates are inclined to get worked up about the smallest things, I'm amazed even more about this. That there haven't been "gun ins" and such over this. After all, unlike the d-bags around here who got bent because a reporter told people where they could find out how many CC permits are in a given area, this would seem like something worth fighting. A municipality illegally trumping state law. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh 0ne Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 (edited) The clip is a separate thing from the gun. I own the exact rifle that he had but I do not have 100 round clips (more accurately it is a drum and the one he had jammed anyway). I use the rifle for hunting and target shooting and general plinking. The only difference between an "assault" rifle and any other rifle is that it is black I guess. Bullets come out just the same no matter what the rifle looks like. I have several 30 round and 20 round clips which are nice when you are target shooting since you do not have to lose your bearing to exchange clips as often. Literally every one of my friends have a "black rifle". If you want to shoot a bunch of people, pretty much any gun would do. Banning "assault" rifles is a feel good measure which does nothing as it did not the first time and was subsequently overturned. I believe most of the people shot in CO came from the buckshot from the shotgun if that matters. Doesn't an assault rifle have an automatic mode that can fire shots rapidly? As opposed to a shotgun where you shot a round, have to cock the gun to shoot the next round? How long would it take to shoot 10 shots from a shot gun vs. an assault rifle? How quickly can I blast through 10 rounds with an assault rifle vs. a regular rifle? Edited July 25, 2012 by Hugh 0ne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh 0ne Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 I don't understand why people are more afraid of an "assault" rifle instead of a shotgun. I think there's 8 "bullets" per shot fired from a 00 shell. I think each of those "bullets" are about the same size, weight, and traveling at the similar speed. Roughly speaking, one 00 shell is 8x the damage potential of one 556 round. In a crowd to create havoc and death, a shotgun just seems more deadly. A dozen rounds releases about the same damage capacity as a 100 round drum. How quick can you blast through rounds on a shot gun, and what is the capacity? How quick can you blast through rounds on an assault rifle, and what is the capacity? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duchess Jack Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Does anybody disagree with background checks for owning guns? Does anybody disagree with having one's guns registered (other than Ice-T) Does anybody disagree with disallowing hollow-tipped bullets, explosive rounds, etc? Also... I keep on hearing from law enforcement folk on how they rather see assault rifles made illegal for anyone but law enforcement and the military. Any thoughts on this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEC=UGA Posted July 25, 2012 Author Share Posted July 25, 2012 (edited) Does anybody disagree with background checks for owning guns? Does anybody disagree with having one's guns registered (other than Ice-T) Does anybody disagree with disallowing hollow-tipped bullets, explosive rounds, etc? Also... I keep on hearing from law enforcement folk on how they rather see assault rifles made illegal for anyone but law enforcement and the military. Any thoughts on this? No No Yes (hollow points are fine and a good round for stopping people) I can see why law enforcement would want to make assault rifles illegal, I'd hate to have people shooting them at me. You always want more fire power than your opponent. Edited July 25, 2012 by SEC=UGA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 How quick can you blast through rounds on a shot gun, and what is the capacity? How quick can you blast through rounds on an assault rifle, and what is the capacity? With the right shotgun you can blast through rounds as fast as you can with a so-called assault rifle. You can get a 20 round drum for a 12 gauge. In a confined space like movie theater 20 rounds from a 12 gauge is going to be much more deadly than 100 rounds from a so-called assault rifle. BTW, if I wanted to kill someone I wouldn't use an so-called assault rifle or a shotgun. I'd either use a large caliber rifle from 1,000 yards away or a bomb, depending on whether I wanted to kill a specific person or kill a bunch of people. The chance of getting caught would be much smaller. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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