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Breaking News - Saints players have won their appeal


Grits and Shins
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I don't think that intent to injure is dependent upon a penalty called on the player by an independent party, and therefore you don't have a sound basis for your judgment.

 

 

I agree to an extent. I think it leaves the intent totally upon the players shoulders which IMO is part of the problem. You may not be targeting players for injury, but it provides more dubious players an avenue or excuse for doing it & that is where it is wrong.

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So the NFLs "smoking gun" says it wasn't a bounty/injure system.

 

 

how do you figure? it specifically spells out how there was a system with financial rewards for injuring opposing players, often with particularly large rewards for knocking out high value targets in big games. how exactly do YOU define a "bounty/injure system" if that doesn't qualify?

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how do you figure? it specifically spells out how there was a system with financial rewards for injuring opposing players, often with particularly large rewards for knocking out high value targets in big games. how exactly do YOU define a "bounty/injure system" if that doesn't qualify?

 

 

I see the word "injure" once in the 7 page affidavit. Williams then goes on to explain that he defines injuring as "knocking the wind" out of a player and doing so within the rules etc. I define a bounty/injure system as monetary awards for cheap shots/illegal hits intended to seriously injure a player (ie Going after someones knees. Body slamming them after the play ala Packers v. Jim McMahon)

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I define a bounty/injure system as monetary awards for cheap shots/illegal hits intended to seriously injure a player (ie Going after someones knees. Body slamming them after the play ala Packers v. Jim McMahon)

 

 

You have an extremely narrow definition of it then.

 

I see a scheme under which a player was provided financial incentive to injure a player (which is how I interpret a "cart-off.") That's about all I need to know.

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hmm...

 

Former New Orleans Saints lineman Anthony Hargrove has finished his meeting with NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell on Tuesday, leaving the building out of a different door he entered. Saints defensive end Will Smith is meeting with Goodell now.

 

avoiding the media? wonder if he flipped. he woulda been the one to target. goodell could have come with an apology, "we attributed the voice saying 'pay me my money' on the vikes game audio to you, and that may have been in error. so we'd like to reduce your suspension to 'time served', provided you are willing to testify truthfully..."

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Fujita's meeting today with Goodell canceled

http://www.ohio.com/blogs/cleveland-browns/cleveland-browns-1.270107/browns-lb-scott-fujita-s-meeting-with-nfl-over-bounty-case-canceled-1.335495

 

Basically he wanted to get treatment on his injured knee instead. Then he tried to set up a conference call with the NFL nd they informed him that it had to be a face to face meeting. The meeing will have to be rescheduled.

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Williams then goes on to explain that he defines injuring as "knocking the wind" out of a player and doing so within the rules etc.

 

This is ridiculous. Injuring defined as"knocking the wind" out of someone? He's approaching Bill Clinton territory for loss of credibility by obscuring the basic definitions of words. In the context of an NFL defense, I can't believe the injuries they were trying to inflict were taking someone out of the game for a few plays, or maybe 5-10 minutes max, by knocking the wind out of them.

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This is ridiculous. Injuring defined as"knocking the wind" out of someone? He's approaching Bill Clinton territory for loss of credibility by obscuring the basic definitions of words. In the context of an NFL defense, I can't believe the injuries they were trying to inflict were taking someone out of the game for a few plays, or maybe 5-10 minutes max, by knocking the wind out of them.

 

 

"It depends on the what the meaning of the word 'is' is."

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This is ridiculous. Injuring defined as"knocking the wind" out of someone? He's approaching Bill Clinton territory for loss of credibility by obscuring the basic definitions of words. In the context of an NFL defense, I can't believe the injuries they were trying to inflict were taking someone out of the game for a few plays, or maybe 5-10 minutes max, by knocking the wind out of them.

 

 

Technically, the Saints players are arguing that their intent was not to injure. A "knock-out" as defined as knocking the wind out of a player or rattling him in such a manner that he has to leave for a play would actually support that argument. Cart-offs, which defined by the players as having the opponent leave the game for more than just one play or the entire game would suggest otherwise.

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it's funny how your position on this has gone from "sure they had a 'performance pool' that rewarded injuries, but everyone does it", to "sure they did it, but it was all gregg williams' fault and peyton and loomis did anything wrong, gosh darn it, they were just too trusting"...now that the players have been implicated and decided their best tactic is to go into full-blown johnny cochrane mode, you're suddenly unsure whether anything at all has taken place. :rolleyes:

 

 

My position in all this has never changed from day one. I have never tried to make the argument that "everyone does it" (implying that I think the Saints shouldn't be punished because everyone does it) and I have never tried to make the argument that Payton & Loomis did no wrong and it was all Gregg Williams' fault. You know I haven't unless you've never read ANY of my posts yet you continue to perpetuate this idea.

 

Very classy... You'd make a great politician.

Edited by rajncajn
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My position in all this has never changed from day one. I have never tried to make the argument that "everyone does it" (implying that I think the Saints shouldn't be punished because everyone does it) and I have never tried to make the argument that Payton & Loomis did no wrong and it was all Gregg Williams' fault. You know I haven't unless you've never read ANY of my posts yet you continue to perpetuate this idea.

 

Very classy... You'd make a great politician.

 

 

No your point has mostly been the Saints are being singled out and treated unfairly. Ignoring the fact that they were caught, told to stop and said they would. Then later were caught again, and punished for their actions as well as snubbing their noses at the NFL. (I'm referring to the whole pay for performance issue, whether bounties are involved or not.)

 

I wonder if you'll ever believe they did anything wrong or deserve any punishment. We discussed it in the past, the "your kid is a bully syndrome" the parent just doesn't want to believe, and will protect their child and defend them unconditionally.

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No your point has mostly been the Saints are being singled out and treated unfairly. Ignoring the fact that they were caught, told to stop and said they would. Then later were caught again, and punished for their actions as well as snubbing their noses at the NFL. (I'm referring to the whole pay for performance issue, whether bounties are involved or not.)

 

I wonder if you'll ever believe they did anything wrong or deserve any punishment. We discussed it in the past, the "your kid is a bully syndrome" the parent just doesn't want to believe, and will protect their child and defend them unconditionally.

 

Wrong again...

 

Singled out? No, not necessarily singled out, but the league seems more than willing to close the book on the Saints, which I've said before I understand. However, that doesn't have anything to do with why I think their punishments were a bit over the top as far as Payton is concerned. I've said over & over again that I don't believe the Saints are completely innocent and they deserve to be punished. That doesn't mean I agree with the severity of all the punishments, but it also doesn't mean that I don't "believe they did anything wrong or deserve any punishment." Hell, I've repeated that general sentiment three times in this thread alone... What the hell more do you want from me? :shrug:

 

I agree to an extent. I think it leaves the intent totally upon the players shoulders which IMO is part of the problem. You may not be targeting players for injury, but it provides more dubious players an avenue or excuse for doing it & that is where it is wrong.

 

Do I believe them? I don't know who to believe. I think the truth may lie somewhere in the middle as it usually does. But to say their testimony doesn't hold any weight at all against the testimony of a guy who absolutely has an axe to grind with the Saints (Cerullo) and a guy who knows he will never coach in the NFL again if he doesn't go along with the NFL's version of the story (Williams) is just silly. They all have their own best interest in mind. That doesn't mean that one's testimony is valid & the others are not. Vilma is saying now that he has 30 players & coaches that will testify on his behalf and have subpenaed Williams as well in the defamation suit, so maybe the truth of what actually happened will come out. According to Vilma & his lawyer, much of Williams testimony is contradicted by Cerullo's. But the NFL only Williams' declaration so a comparison can't be made. As I've said before, if Vilma or any other player/coach did offer money to injure Favre then I hope they burn for it to be perfectly blunt. Because in that one action they turned what was intended only to be a pay-for-perfomance pool into what is being punished for as a 3-year long bounty program with which I still disagree.

 

Not pre-planned as in they were not targeting players, not trying to injure players. Just if it happened as a side affect to a "clean" hit. And no, I don't think that makes it right, but I do recognize the distinction of intent.

 

Edited by rajncajn
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Observations----

 

Of course any payments, whether termed "bounties" or "performance payouts" would be contingent upon not getting flagged. Getting flagged is tantamount to getting caught. If I offer to pay a guy to steal something, he acquires it, but gets caught before he gets it to me he really has not given me the value of what I was paying for. I was paying for delivery, not a sloppily executed attempt. Its the same thing here. You have to get away with it either within the rules or perhaps unseen at the bottom of a pile or in the melee of line play. Getting caught negates the value.

 

 

I keep seeing the expression "Judge, Jury, and Executioner". It is meant to emphasize that Goodell is taking three roles and that this is unamerican. Frankly this is very American. Most often the Judge, the arbitor of the law and due process, also acts as the fact finder. Juries as fact finders are actually extremely rare. Also typically it is the Judge, the person most well apprised of the facts, who then determines senctence, that determination that those who use the phrase mean by executioner. The tri-partite function meant to disparage is actually pretty much how the system generally works.

 

No real point, just some pet peeves. Carry on.

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Wrong again...

 

Singled out? No, not necessarily singled out, but the league seems more than willing to close the book on the Saints, which I've said before I understand. However, that doesn't have anything to do with why I think their punishments were a bit over the top as far as Payton is concerned. I've said over & over again that I don't believe the Saints are completely innocent and they deserve to be punished. That doesn't mean I agree with the severity of all the punishments, but it also doesn't mean that I don't "believe they did anything wrong or deserve any punishment." Hell, I've repeated that general sentiment three times in this thread alone... What the hell more do you want from me? :shrug:

 

 

I want an introduction to your sister. If you don't have one then any female you know of with most of her limbs, at least half of her faculties, and preferably with a rather loose moral compass. She should also be between 18 and 80 years old. I don't want it to be illegal or too freaky.

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Observations----

 

Of course any payments, whether termed "bounties" or "performance payouts" would be contingent upon not getting flagged. Getting flagged is tantamount to getting caught. If I offer to pay a guy to steal something, he acquires it, but gets caught before he gets it to me he really has not given me the value of what I was paying for. I was paying for delivery, not a sloppily executed attempt. Its the same thing here. You have to get away with it either within the rules or perhaps unseen at the bottom of a pile or in the melee of line play. Getting caught negates the value.

The payments were made to "clean hits" that took a player out of the game, You're not going to get a "clean hit" by taking out someone at the bottom of the pile or with a dirty hit which would be fined and/or penalized as there's no such thing as a dirty, legal hit.

I keep seeing the expression "Judge, Jury, and Executioner". It is meant to emphasize that Goodell is taking three roles and that this is unamerican. Frankly this is very American. Most often the Judge, the arbitor of the law and due process, also acts as the fact finder. Juries as fact finders are actually extremely rare. Also typically it is the Judge, the person most well apprised of the facts, who then determines senctence, that determination that those who use the phrase mean by executioner. The tri-partite function meant to disparage is actually pretty much how the system generally works.

 

No real point, just some pet peeves. Carry on.

 

The expression is actually meant to imply the Saints are not getting a fair appeal. Goodell is "judge, jury & executioner" because they are "executed" with basically no chance for a real appeal... Or so it is implied.

I want an introduction to your sister. If you don't have one then any female you know of with most of her limbs, at least half of her faculties, and preferably with a rather loose moral compass. She should also be between 18 and 80 years old. I don't want it to be illegal or too freaky.

 

:lol:
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The payments were made to "clean hits" that took a player out of the game, You're not going to get a "clean hit" by taking out someone at the bottom of the pile or with a dirty hit which would be fined and/or penalized as there's no such thing as a dirty, legal hit.

 

The expression is actually meant to imply the Saints are not getting a fair appeal. Goodell is "judge, jury & executioner" because they are "executed" with basically no chance for a real appeal... Or so it is implied.

:lol:

 

 

Right. When I played, at a lower level admittedly, I would hit cleanly, well within the rules, but sometimes with bad intent. The league cannot admit the violence of intent that may be in the game. Doing so would be unseemly and bad for business. The problem with this matter is not an individual's intent. The problem is if bad intent is encouraged institutionally and in a mercenary fashion.

 

I understand what folks are trying to say with the judge, jury, and executioner line. I just wish they would express their real frustration, that Goodell is the prosecutor, judge, and the final level of appeal of his own prosecution and determination. That is more akin to the french legal system and seems foreign and unjust to us. Of course since that was bargained for by sides of fairly equal power with sophisticated representation and was well contemplated it is not unfair as the players recieved compensation for allowing that system. If the players have a beef it is with their player reps and their union bosses.

 

In the end those looking for justice in this mater will be disappointed. No human process gives justice except by happy accident. Our processes give finality, settled winners and losers, but justice, almost never.

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Right. When I played, at a lower level admittedly, I would hit cleanly, well within the rules, but sometimes with bad intent. The league cannot admit the violence of intent that may be in the game. Doing so would be unseemly and bad for business. The problem with this matter is not an individual's intent. The problem is if bad intent is encouraged institutionally and in a mercenary fashion.

 

Yeah, I doubt that very many players play without that "killer" mentality. They like to say that when the whistle is blown that they are a different person. Some of the videos of players like Lott, they would actually come out and say that between the whistles they hated the opponent, they wanted to hurt them.

I understand what folks are trying to say with the judge, jury, and executioner line. I just wish they would express their real frustration, that Goodell is the prosecutor, judge, and the final level of appeal of his own prosecution and determination. That is more akin to the french legal system and seems foreign and unjust to us. Of course since that was bargained for by sides of fairly equal power with sophisticated representation and was well contemplated it is not unfair as the players received compensation for allowing that system. If the players have a beef it is with their player reps and their union bosses.

 

In the end those looking for justice in this mater will be disappointed. No human process gives justice except by happy accident. Our processes give finality, settled winners and losers, but justice, almost never.

 

Yeah, but it sounds better to say the other. Edited by rajncajn
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