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Breaking News - Saints players have won their appeal


Grits and Shins
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Every one of the posts below has an admission of guilt by me of either players or coaches or both in one form or another. Many of the posts are in direct response to you.

 

http://forums.thehud..._bounty__st__75

http://forums.thehud...n/#entry3663658

http://forums.thehud...50#entry3644474

http://forums.thehud...50#entry3644517

http://forums.thehud...75#entry3644616

http://forums.thehud...75#entry3647292

http://forums.thehud...25#entry3651047

http://forums.thehud...00#entry3653211

http://forums.thehud...50#entry3655497

http://forums.thehud...25#entry3676324

http://forums.thehud...50#entry3681544

http://forums.thehud...00#entry3728115

http://forums.thehud...75#entry3727882

http://forums.thehud...75#entry3728094

http://forums.thehud...00#entry3728306

 

That's 15 times that I could find. Here's one more... The Saints had a program that could have influenced players to injure opponents in games & they should be punished for it. Happy now?

 

 

in some of those posts, you say the players participated in a pay-for-injury scheme (you even call it a bounty program on more than one occasion), at one point you say they all deserved their suspensions except that maybe vilma's is a little harsh, you say the coaches suspensions were valid except for payton's because you don't believe he knew about the bounties (again, your word).

 

now contrast that with countless other posts from you saying there's no evidence against the players, that there wasn't a "bounty" program with intent to injure, that goodell is a power hungry despot with an axe to grind, etc. basically whatever spin the players' attorneys and/or the saints executives are arguing at the moment. hence my observation, which you took with great umbrage, that you are all over the map on this. I think you are caught between knowing in your gut that something pretty rotten was going on, but also being wrapped up in the fortress mentality against goodell and everyone else outside the saints bubble who find what they were doing to be reprehensible. so be it. but it's not logical, it's only partially honest, and it sure as hell ain't consistent.

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  • 3 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/65343/jimmy-kennedy-bounty-claims-an-utter-lie

 

Saw this come out this morning too.

 

The NFL's explanation for how it learned of the New Orleans Saints alleged bounty program goes like this: Former Saints defensive tackle Anthony Hargrove told former Minnesota Vikings defensive tackle Jimmy Kennedy about it at some point near the 2009 NFC Championship Game. Kennedy told Vikings coach Brad Childress, and Childress reported it to the league.

 

Friday, Kennedy denied his role as the bounty whistleblower and said the NFL has distributed "blatant lies about me." In a statement released by the NFL Players Association, Kennedy said: "Coach Childress approached me and asked me if I knew anything about such an allegation, and I told him the truth: I did not. I had no knowledge of any such alleged bounty."

 

Further, Kennedy said it is "an utter lie" to suggest Hargrove told him about the bounty. Kennedy: "It simply never happened. I never discussed an alleged bounty with Anthony Hargrove before, during or after the NFC Championship Game. The only discussion I have had with Anthony about the alleged bounty occurred when we recently spoke about the NFL’s egregiously flawed and unjust investigation and proceeding."

 

I've had plenty to say about the NFL's investigation of the bounty program, especially as it related to Hargrove during the time he spent with the Green Bay Packers. To be blunt, much of it doesn't pass the smell test. (Many of those posts can be found in this link.)

 

Hargrove and Kennedy have now both denied the NFL's claims on how Childress became convinced there was a bounty; Childress hasn't commented to my knowledge. And as we've discussed, the evidence the NFL presented against Hargrove has either been debunked or substantially discredited.

 

We all know the NFL didn't have to meet a legal standard in order to make these accusations and distribute discipline. And part of the language in Kennedy's statement no doubt is setting up the inevitable legal battle that is only beginning. But I agree with one sentiment in the statement from Kennedy, who said he is now among "the list of men whose reputations and character have been irreparably damaged by the shoddy, careless, shameful so-called investigation behind this sham proceeding."

 

That language might be a bit over the top, but careers have been altered and lives changed forever as a result of this bounty investigation. To this point, it's difficult to say that impact has been merited.

 

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The players appeal will now be heard from Tagulebue as Goddell recused himself.

 

 

Also released today, Jimmy Kennedy made a formal, sworn statement through the NFLPA that the NFL lied in three separate instances regarding his involvement as a whistleblower in the bounty case

 

 

“Roger Goodell identifies me as the whistleblower who approached former Viking coach Brad Childress about an alleged bounty on Brett Favre in the NFC Championship game,” Kennedy says. “That is a lie. I had no knowledge about any alleged bounty to reveal to anyone, and I never informed anyone that I did. . . .

 

“Roger Goodell also states that I was interviewed by the NFL about the alleged bounty. That is another lie; I was never interviewed by the NFL, unless the NFL considers two 30-second conversations when I told NFL Security that I had no knowledge of any such allegations interviews. I certainly do not. . . .

 

“The third lie that Roger Goodell told about me is perhaps the most upsetting because it involves a man for whom I have great respect and affection, Anthony Hargrove. The NFL states that Anthony Hargrove told me about the alleged bounty on Brett Favre. That is an utter lie; it simply never happened. I never discussed an alleged bounty with Anthony Hargrove before, during or after the NFC Championship game.”

 

 

Also released today is an OTL segment regarding a special ESPN did in 96 regarding Reggie White's "Smash for Cash" program. A program in which NFL spokesman Greg Aeilo stated at the time

"The 'Smash-for-Cash' program is within the rules as long as players use their own monies, the amounts are not exorbitant, and the payments are not for illegal hits."
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Interesting.

 

So Kennedy is suggesting that Childress made it all up, and has targeted him and Hargrove for some reason as the whistle blowers.

 

Why?

 

I don't think Kennedy is suggesting anything other than the league lied about his involvement. Maybe they were misinformed themselves, Maybe Kennedy is lying although I don't think he would have any reason to, I don't know. So now what the league has as evidence of a bounty on Favre and/or Warner are the conflicting statements of Williams and Cerullo and a barely legible napkin written by Cerullo.

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Well that is kind of the point, his statement (that you posted) said the NFL lied. But they are only repeating what Childress told them.

 

Maybe Kennedy is lying because he doesn't want to be known as a rat. I'd say he has more reason to lie about this, than Childress does to make up the whole story (that Kennedy told him, and he was told by Hargrove).

 

Or maybe the NFL made it all up, and now Childress will release a statement saying he never told the NFL any of this.

 

It sure is going to make a great movie when we eventually get some credible facts.

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Jeez, I really wish we could get daily updates, maybe sign up for some kind of Saints legal newsletter that is sent out every morning?

 

I used to feel this way about threads I didn't care about. Or threads that seemed to go on and on about nothing. That was a long time ago. You see somewhere along the line I learned, all by myself I might add, that all I had to do to eliminate this problem was...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Don't click on the damn thread.

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  • 1 month later...

Although 2/3 of the guys that actually posted on this thread no longer belong to the forums. I thought I would throw out the latest update. "Players sources say they rejected a settlement offer in the New Orleans Saints bounty case Friday because it required some acknowledgement of culpability...

Sources say the NFL's offer was to reduce Hargrove's suspension to two games from seven, fine Smith four game checks (Smith is appealing a four-game suspension) and leave the decision on Vilma's season-long suspension up to Tagliabue, as long as Vilma dropped his defamation suit against commissioner Roger Goodell and the league."

 

Maybe the "Goodell father" was full of sh*t after all?

 

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8728960/players-nix-new-orleans-saints-bounty-settlement-offer-sources

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Per ESPN, Tagliabue vacates all player suspensions.

 

http://usatoday30.us...unty-appeal.pdf

 

the very end statement is interesting:

 

 

CONCLUSIONS AND ORDER

For the reasons set forth in this Final Decision on Appeal, I affirm the factual findings of

Commissioner Goodell; I conclude that Hargrove, Smith, and Vilma engaged in “conduct

detrimental to the integrity of, and public confidence in, the game of professional football”; and I

vacate all player discipline.

Edited by keggerz
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http://usatoday30.us...unty-appeal.pdf

 

the very end statement is interesting:

 

 

CONCLUSIONS AND ORDER

For the reasons set forth in this Final Decision on Appeal, I affirm the factual findings of

Commissioner Goodell; I conclude that Hargrove, Smith, and Vilma engaged in “conduct

detrimental to the integrity of, and public confidence in, the game of professional football”; and I

vacate all player discipline.

 

 

Translation - "I think my predesser levied unjust punishments based on BS evidence. But in order to save Goodell some face, I'll find that they engaged in "conduct blah blah blah."

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Translation - "I think my predesser levied unjust punishments based on BS evidence. But in order to save Goodell some face, I'll find that they engaged in "conduct blah blah blah."

 

 

Disagree. What he said was, "the evidence shows they obviously did this, but we're blaming the coaching staff and giving the players a pass because the player's union is a pain in the ass." There was nothing in the ruling that said that there wasn't enough evidence to conclude they operated a bounty program.

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Disagree. What he said was, "the evidence shows they obviously did this, but we're blaming the coaching staff and giving the players a pass because the player's union is a pain in the ass." There was nothing in the ruling that said that there wasn't enough evidence to conclude they operated a bounty program.

 

Ding, ding, ding, ding...ding
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Kafka would be proud - this is now beyond absurd. If this were a criminal case, you'd roll up all the guilty parties - players, coaches, organizations - and penalize/jail them all. Now you're saying we penalized some players, because they were guilty, but nevermind because they were just following orders?? I have to imagine the defamation suits of the players, or at least Vilma, have much greater chances of succeeding after this. Vilma doesn't seem like he's going to settle anything.

 

Can someone explain what the NFL has been trying to accomplish this whole time? Sounds like it's time for some executive firings.

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Disagree. What he said was, "the evidence shows they obviously did this, but we're blaming the coaching staff and giving the players a pass because the player's union is a pain in the ass." There was nothing in the ruling that said that there wasn't enough evidence to conclude they operated a bounty program.

So now we are blaming the players union in all this? Geebus. I'd say Tag was a better commissioner than Goodell. His vacating the suspensions says a little more than "the player's union is a pain in the ass". Sometimes I don't think fans realize the game they are actually watching. You get guys on the radio (that have no reason to lie as far as I can tell) like Schlereth and Golic openly admitting that pay for performance programs similar to the Saints have been in existence with every locker room they've been involved in. Jim Brown basically saying he felt bad for the Saints because they were taking the fall for a lot of people. Yet some people want to demonize the Saints, blame the union, and make excuses for what actually happened. Things like this have been going on for a very long time. Goodell wanted it out of the league for several reasons (I'd assume litigation being the main one though) but he went about it in a terrible way. From an ESPN article today:

Goodell's suspensions of four players, Tagliabue concluded, were "selective, ad hoc, or inconsistent."

Hard to argue with Tagliabue on that point. It'll be interesting what we get out of an actual court with Vilma's lawsuit. Anyway, pay for performance has been a part of the NFL for a long time (Reggie White's "Smash for Cash" program). Goodell isn't a very good commissioner and mishandled the situation in numerous ways. So you can try to blame the players or the players union, but the real thing that has gone wrong is the commissioner wanted to change the culture (I would say for the better) yet he went about it wrong and then doubled down on stupid.

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So now we are blaming the players union in all this? Geebus. I'd say Tag was a better commissioner than Goodell. His vacating the suspensions says a little more than "the player's union is a pain in the ass". Sometimes I don't think fans realize the game they are actually watching. You get guys on the radio (that have no reason to lie as far as I can tell) like Schlereth and Golic openly admitting that pay for performance programs similar to the Saints have been in existence with every locker room they've been involved in. Jim Brown basically saying he felt bad for the Saints because they were taking the fall for a lot of people. Yet some people want to demonize the Saints, blame the union, and make excuses for what actually happened. Things like this have been going on for a very long time. Goodell wanted it out of the league for several reasons (I'd assume litigation being the main one though) but he went about it in a terrible way. From an ESPN article today:

 

Hard to argue with Tagliabue on that point. It'll be interesting what we get out of an actual court with Vilma's lawsuit. Anyway, pay for performance has been a part of the NFL for a long time (Reggie White's "Smash for Cash" program). Goodell isn't a very good commissioner and mishandled the situation in numerous ways. So you can try to blame the players or the players union, but the real thing that has gone wrong is the commissioner wanted to change the culture (I would say for the better) yet he went about it wrong and then doubled down on stupid.

 

 

Not blaming the players' union at all. Merely stating that after this whole debacle, Tags played it pretty smart in saying that the evidence obviously points to guilt, but if we blame the coaches and let the players off with "time served" we can try and save some face and hopefully get the union off our ass. I also wouldn't say that the whole mess was "bungled" by Goodell's office, I'd say that he clearly overstepped the authority he believed he had and got burned. He said from the beginning that there was an illegal bounty program, and an even worse systemic coverup, and both of those things remain absolutely true. He messed up in trying to hand out punishments and making examples of people. His error was on the punishment side, not the investigative side.

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He said from the beginning that there was an illegal bounty program, and an even worse systemic coverup, and both of those things remain absolutely true. He messed up in trying to hand out punishments and making examples of people. His error was on the punishment side, not the investigative side.

 

 

If they are both "absolutely" true then they should have no reason to continue to refuse to release the transcripts from the hearings rather than continue to leak information that seemingly only supports their case. It's a damn shame too. I think that fans who invest so much of their time and money in the team do have a right to know why their team was punished so much more severely than other teams that had been punished previously. Making an example of the organization because they want to project an image that they have changed their ways in regards to player health & safety is completely egregious, unfair and deceitful to their constituents.

 

His error was EQUALLY on the punishment side & investigative side and that should be glaringly obvious. If nothing else, publicly handing down such a damning verdict when the only player you've actually interviewed is Anthony Hargrove should be enough proof of that, not to mention lying to the public about the amount and validity of much of their evidence.

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