Green Bay TD - Offense or Special Teams Play

[Bronco Billy]

 

 

What does this have to do with IDP? No defensive players were on the field. In IDP nobody gets the points.

 

 

[Grits and Shins]

Because in IDP leagues points go to players and not units. If you had crabtree starting he gets those points. If you had Mastay starting he gets points. No worries about units, just players.

 

 

You're just saying that in many instances special teams/defensive TDs aren't scored in IDP ... because in many cases the player that scores not only wasn't started in some cases isn't even on anybody's squad.

[Ditkaless Wonders]

I agree wholeheartedly with my Cutler owning GB here. Oh - and one of those cigars was a great way to start my day off. Many thanks

 

 

It is going to be some time before my butt heals after last night's debacle.

[Ditkaless Wonders]

You're just saying that in many instances special teams/defensive TDs aren't scored in IDP ... because in many cases the player that scores not only wasn't started in some cases isn't even on anybody's squad.

 

 

As is not infrequently the case when injuries occur.

[Bronco Billy]

 

 

You're just saying that in many instances special teams/defensive TDs aren't scored in IDP ... because in many cases the player that scores not only wasn't started in some cases isn't even on anybody's squad.

 

 

I think you're confusing players scoring in FF with FF teams scoring. Of course the players scored the FF pts

[Whiskey Pimp]

But here's where your "consider the personnel" bit fails. Say the holder is the back-up QB instead of the punter. And, instead of snapping the ball back to him on his knee, they actually shift at the last second into a more standard formation, with the holder standing up and the kicker moving into a RB position. Then the back-up QB throws a pass to a back-up TE for a TD. Does the simple fact that the kicker is on the field make it a special teams play?

 

 

What if it's not even the back-up QB. What would have happened if Romo never fumbled the hold on that kick and was able to actually run into the endzone for a TD? It would have been a rushing TD to Romo and not a special teams TD.

[Furd]

I don't think that its advisable to consider who is on the field or the formation or the down in trying to decide how to score a play.

 

As I see it, in that play, you had a snap (offense), forward pass (offense) and reception (offense.) The person that threw the pass gets the points that go with the completed pass and the person that received the ball gets the points that go with the reception.

 

That being said, you can write your rules however you want.

[Gopher]

I can see where it would seem like a ST play, but if I owned that TE, I would expect to get the TD for it (as an offensive play). So, in that sense, it makes sense that it doesn't become a ST play until a kick is performed. If the snap were fumbled, and the defense had returned it for a touchdown, it would be scored as a defensive touchdown (rather than a special teams TD) in leagues that differentiate between the two, correct?

[Cunning Runt]

I'm gonna drop this. I feel strongly that the way I argue for is the way to approach it. Others feel differently. No worries.

[detlef]

Oh, and for those who want to score these as D/ST points. Why don't you give the D/ST 3 pts for FGs? If a fake FG TD pass a ST play, why isn't a made FG?

[keggerz]

I'm gonna drop this. I feel strongly that the way I argue for is the way to approach it. Others feel differently. No worries.

 

Did you look at the Playtime Percentages that I linked?

[detlef]

Yahoo is scoring it as Special Teams...I'll take the points any way I can.

 

Not in my league they're not. My yahoo leagues show it as 10 pts allowed, 7 sacks, 4 picks, zero TDs

[Grits and Shins]

I don't think that its advisable to consider who is on the field or the formation or the down in trying to decide how to score a play.

 

As I see it, in that play, you had a snap (offense), forward pass (offense) and reception (offense.) The person that threw the pass gets the points that go with the completed pass and the person that received the ball gets the points that go with the reception.

 

That being said, you can write your rules however you want.

 

 

Bottom line for me ... our scoring rules MUST be supported by the league website (MFL for us) ... I will not implement any scoring rule that requires manual intervention. So if the NFL doesn't score it a special teams/defensive TD then neither will my leagues, regardless of what I may think.

[Big Country]

It never ceases to amaze me how these threads pop up every year and go on for all these pages when these types of plays occur (and they do occur every year).

 

 

 

Personnel on the field is completely irrelevant.

 

 

The play was nothing more than a standard forward pass. Whether by design, or because an intended punt/FG was broken up by defensive pressure, it makes no difference, the act that took place was a forward pass by a player acting as a quarterback on said play to another player acting as a receiver on the play.

 

 

 

For those attempting to argue that this should somehow be scored as a special teams TD, would you be giving the special teams points for a passing TD, a receiving TD, passing yardage and receiving yardage? Do you even have these as designated team stats for the special teams unit?

 

 

 

Some tidbits from MFL on how and why they score these plays as they do. Now, they are not saying that you can not apply this towards your special teams/team defense position, they just explain why the statistics from the NFL, and thus their application of them, do not score these kinds of plays as anything but a standard pass (or rush) play:

 

 

The NFL does not have separate statistical categories for fake punts and kicks, so MyFantasyLeague.com does not, either. Instead, a fake play is scored as a regular rushing or passing play, just as it appears in a typical box score. If you want to award your kicker or punter position for these types of plays, be sure that your league scoring rules are set up to include things like rushing and passing TDs, rushing and passing yards, etc. for kickers and punters, if appropriate for your league. If you want to award your Special Teams or Team Defense position for these types of plays, there isn't any automatic way to do this. Instead, you would have to use the "For Commissioners > Setup > Player Score Adjuster" to add the points to the Team Defense position if/when this type of situation occurs.

 

And, from their commentary from a couple plays from 2008:

 

Week 1

 

This week’s “controversy” for a lot of leagues involved the “fake” field goal that resulted in a Passing TD for the Bills. As noted in our strange plays summary, this is scored by the NFL and shows up in any typical box score as just a regular passing TD. Therefore, the stats are scored that way for your league. The NFL does not track “fakes” or other events like this at all, so there isn’t any automatic way to have it scored for your league as a special type of touchdown. The raw stats and the box score for this will always just show it as a passing TD play. It does show Brian Moorman (punter) as the person that threw the pass, but that is really the only indicator that it was an unusual play, unless you scrutinize the play-by-play listing to see what exactly happeend on that touchdown.

If you want this touchdown to be counted as a TD for your Punter position, then be sure to add “Passing TDs” as an option for your Punters. However if you want to score this as a TD for your Special Teams or Team Defense position, then you will have to manually track this type of “fake” play and add it using the “Setup > Adjust Scores and Standings > Player Score Adjuster” screen in your league. You don’t want to add the Passing TD rule to your Special Teams position, because otherwise it will count all Passing TDs for the entire team.

So the bottom line is that “fake” plays, either on a punt or kickoff, are not tracked as a raw stat by the NFL, so therefore they cannot be scored automatically for your fantasy football league. Our recommendation is to treat them like any other passing TD rather than trying to find them each week and score them as a special teams play.

 

 

 

Week 4:

 

This week saw the usual amount of interception and fumble return touchdowns, plus a few blocked kicks. As always, you can check the “Help > Strange Plays” menu item in your league for the complete run down each week.

Two of the more noteworthy plays this week involved a fake punt of sorts and a really, really long field goal attempt. First, the fake punt happened in the Jaguars game when they scored a 41-yard rushing TD on fourth down. They lined up sort of in a punt formation, even though they didn’t have a punter in the backfield as you would expect. Then Montell Owens took the long snap in the backfield and proceeded to score a long rushing TD on his first carry of the season. Pretty impressive play! But as we discussed back in Week 1 on a similar situation with a fake field goal, this is not scored as a Special Teams TD, because there isn’t any way to determine from a typical box score or from the stats that it was a non-standard rushing TD. You would have to use the Score Adjuster if you want this to count as something other than a regular rushing TD for Owens or for your Special Teams position.

[i_am_the_swammi]

thank you, BC....you saved me a good portion of my morning.

 

The easy answer: go to the box score, and you will see a pass completion for a TD by Masthay, and a reception for a TD by Crabtree. Those are offensive statistics....go have a look, Masthay was the 2nd leading passer on the Packers behind Rodgers. Offensive stats can only be compiled by one method: running an offensive play.

[bushwacked]

And BC nails it. Frankly I'm amazed that anyone playing FF for more than a couple years thinks it should be considered a ST TD.

[delusions of grandeur]

By the logic of some here, I demand that when QBs play-action, that I get rewarded for a run from that running back, since they lined up with their running personnel and faked like they were going to run.

[alexgaddis]

By the logic of some here, I demand that when QBs play-action, that I get rewarded for a run from that running back, since they lined up with their running personnel and faked like they were going to run.

 

 

[Cunning Runt]

And BC nails it. Frankly I'm amazed that anyone playing FF for more than a couple years thinks it should be considered a ST TD.

 

 

How 'bout like 20 years, and ya, I do think it should be scored as a special teams score. And as much as I wanted to drop it, sadly, I could not. But like I said, I get that others feel differently. No worries.

 

And to specifically address Detlef's and maybe Stevegrab's question when, in using my logic, a made field goal does not award a team unit 3pts, I have no valid answer other than to use this line, I believe a Supreme Court justice said this - "I can't define pornography, but I know it when I see it". Same line of thinking for me on this issue. I saw a fake FG pass for a TD. I grant you all that that is technically an offensive play. BUT, my eyes tell me I saw a special teams' play. And for the same reason I don't use GPS for yardage on the golf course, I go with what my eyes tell me.

 

How that translates into FF scoring is the slippery slope because clearly not everyone agrees. I'm cool with that. I much more appreciate this type of discussion than some of the others I've been involved in on these boards. Truth.

[Azazello1313]

special teams involves a change of possession, no change of possession, no special teams.

 

 

I find it hard to believe that people who have apparently played fantasy football before still find themselves confused on this point. it happens a few times every year, and every year a few morons start complaining about their special teams not getting the score. you kind of expect it from clueness n00bs, but come on....

[Furd]

To those who think that it was a special teams score -

 

How would you score the play had Crabtree been tackled at the 1 yard line?

[detlef]

How 'bout like 20 years, and ya, I do think it should be scored as a special teams score. And as much as I wanted to drop it, sadly, I could not. But like I said, I get that others feel differently. No worries.

 

And to specifically address Detlef's and maybe Stevegrab's question when, in using my logic, a made field goal does not award a team unit 3pts, I have no valid answer other than to use this line, I believe a Supreme Court justice said this - "I can't define pornography, but I know it when I see it". Same line of thinking for me on this issue. I saw a fake FG pass for a TD. I grant you all that that is technically an offensive play. BUT, my eyes tell me I saw a special teams' play. And for the same reason I don't use GPS for yardage on the golf course, I go with what my eyes tell me.

 

How that translates into FF scoring is the slippery slope because clearly not everyone agrees. I'm cool with that. I much more appreciate this type of discussion than some of the others I've been involved in on these boards. Truth.

 

But, according to your logic, the ST should get the 3. Your logic, assuming I understand you correctly, is that, if the special teams unit is on the field, the special teams get the points (plus, of course, any specific players involved). So, again, why not the 3? And, as others have mentioned, why don't they get .14 pts per yard (the combined passing and receiving bonus), plus another pt for the reception if that's being used. Again, the special teams executed a passing play, so I don't see why you'd deny them all the points earned.

 

This is why your way is messed up, because your using your rationale but only for some things.

 

Either that or you go with the very iron-clad definition of, the offense is the offense until they relinquish the ball. Be it by kicking it, fumbling it, throwing it to the other team, or failing to convert on 4th down. So, regardless of what personnel is on the field, they are playing offense until they're not. And in the case of a FG or a punt, that happens the second they kick the ball.

Edited September 14, 2012 by detlef

[Papajohn]

Is this topic really worth 4 pages???

[Cunning Runt]

But, according to your logic, the ST should get the 3. Your logic, assuming I understand you correctly, is that, if the special teams unit is on the field, the special teams get the points (plus, of course, any specific players involved). So, again, why not the 3? And, as others have mentioned, why don't they get .14 pts per yard (the combined passing and receiving bonus), plus another pt for the reception if that's being used. Again, the special teams executed a passing play, so I don't see why you'd deny them all the points earned.

 

This is why your way is messed up, because your using your rationale but only for some things.

 

Either that or you go with the very iron-clad definition of, the offense is the offense until they relinquish the ball. Be it by kicking it, fumbling it, throwing it to the other team, or failing to convert on 4th down. So, regardless of what personnel is on the field, they are playing offense until they're not. And in the case of a FG or a punt, that happens the second they kick the ball.

 

 

I'm pretty we both understand the difference in the scenarios. If you don't then I don't know what to tell you.

 

 

 

But, according to your logic, the ST should get the 3. Your logic, assuming I understand you correctly, is that, if the special teams unit is on the field, the special teams get the points (plus, of course, any specific players involved). So, again, why not the 3? And, as others have mentioned, why don't they get .14 pts per yard (the combined passing and receiving bonus), plus another pt for the reception if that's being used. Again, the special teams executed a passing play, so I don't see why you'd deny them all the points earned.

 

This is why your way is messed up, because your using your rationale but only for some things.

 

Either that or you go with the very iron-clad definition of, the offense is the offense until they relinquish the ball. Be it by kicking it, fumbling it, throwing it to the other team, or failing to convert on 4th down. So, regardless of what personnel is on the field, they are playing offense until they're not. And in the case of a FG or a punt, that happens the second they kick the ball.

 

[Cunning Runt]

To those who think that it was a special teams score -

 

How would you score the play had Crabtree been tackled at the 1 yard line?

 

 

The same way I'd score it if it were a punt return and the returner was tackled at the 1. Nada, nil, zilch.