delusions of grandeur Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Police state hooray? Yeah all good until it happens to you or yours. Precisely, it kind of reminds me of the Trayvon Martin case where people were calling the kid's character into question, rather than whether Zimmerman was right to shoot. Even total POS's still have rights and it doesn't excuse what the other side does. Plus there are plenty more cases of way more innocent people being victims of unnecessary force. Everyone is a police cheerleader until the police show up at the wrong door and shoot your dog, or shoot you before they can tell if you're holding a gun or remote. I'm damn sick of too many of them acting like they're above the law they're supposed to be enforcing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bier Meister Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Me and mine don't trespass drunk without a shirt at synagogues, so you've got to get to vegas... just sayin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 It looked to me as if he continued to resist as they tried to cuff him on the couch. Given the quality of the video, I would say it's hard to determine whether he was "resisting" or simply trying to protect himself from two cops both pummelling, one with a stick. Regardless, do you honestly think that the cops would have been unable to subdue and cuff him without that beat-down? Oh, and Hugh, the "me and mine don't do that" is such a BS line of reason... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajncajn Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Given the quality of the video, I would say it's hard to determine whether he was "resisting" or simply trying to protect himself from two cops both pummelling, one with a stick. So your first instinct is to assume that he's not? Regardless, do you honestly think that the cops would have been unable to subdue and cuff him without that beat-down? Oh, and Hugh, the "me and mine don't do that" is such a BS line of reason... Yes, I do think the cops could have subdued him without a beat-down. I do think they went about it wrong & in this case it probably would have been much better to use a tazer only assuming they had one. I'm guessing they didn't because it sure would have been a hell of a lot funner to light the guy up. However, there are a lot of variables in that video that we don't know and I can't say that I completely fault the cops in this situation. They should both probably get a temporary suspension and some additional training, but other than that I think the outrage is a bit out of line. The guy should have never put himself in that situation & then, when confronted with the authorities should have never resisted and become confrontational. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Given the quality of the video, I would say it's hard to determine whether he was "resisting" or simply trying to protect himself from two cops both pummelling, one with a stick. Regardless, do you honestly think that the cops would have been unable to subdue and cuff him without that beat-down? Oh, and Hugh, the "me and mine don't do that" is such a BS line of reason... Strongly disagree, how you react to authority figures who are trying to deal with an unknown situation will greatly impact what happens to you. (I have already stated that these cops overreacted, but don't agree with the victim not being responsible. Had he not resisted and threatened them he would not have been beaten.) There was an incident here a few years ago that went down like this some guys drive buy a house and shoot into it homeowner gets his gun and goes with his teenage son looking for the shooters (knew who they were and where they lived/hung) wife calls police to report shooting police show up in this neighborhood and find the man walking with the gun, don't know who he is police tell the man to drop it and get on the ground, he doesn't (but his son does) police tell him repeatedly, then he reaches for his gun police shot and killed him (2 officers fired a combined 22 shots) There was much outrage over the shooting in this "community". Why did they have to shoot so many times, why not just wing/wound him, and on. Police were cleared, and all the extra investigations never convinced the guy's family that the cops acted properly. Had this guy followed orders, or not taken matters in his own hands to start with, he would not have been shot. So the "Me and mine don't do that" is credible and not BS. If I'm pulled over I'm polite and obedient (within reason). I don't threaten the cops, and resist arrest, then have a cow when I'm handled accordingly. Again to clarify, I am not condoning the beating in this video, but the guy brought it on himself. He may not "deserve it" but he certainly did things to cause it to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh 0ne Posted October 17, 2012 Author Share Posted October 17, 2012 Oh, and Hugh, the "me and mine don't do that" is such a BS line of reason... Uh, what the hell are you talking about? I don't hang out drunk in synagogues, and that is my line of reason? Maybe you want to re-read the posts unless your too busy writing 12 paragraph responses in some other thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Steve, what you're saying above is far different than, "Me and mine don't do this, so screw it, let the cops beat the guy." I mean, that appears to be the line of reasoning going on there. And it's a major stretch comparing this to an armed man who refused to drop his weapon. Dude was being a dick to the cops and basically pushing their hands away when they initially tried to cuff him. So, again, dude screwed up, not once, but three times. Screw up 1: Being drunk and shirtless somewhere he wasn't supposed to be. That cost him having to deal with the cops Screw up 2: Not being cool and going peacefully. That cost him needing to be cuffed Screw up 3: Resisting the cuffs. Now, what that should have cost him was being forcefully slammed to the ground, a knee jammed into his back with his head being mashed into the floor while they less than delicately slapped the cuffs on him. Something along those lines. That should be the penalty for being a dick and not just turning around and putting your hands behind your back so the cops can cuff you. Again, I've made it clear that dude's actions certainly opened the door for the cops to be less than gentle with him. However, the penalty should not be getting your ass kicked by not one, but two cops. That's all I'm saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 My last thread! http://newyork.cbslo...osses-the-line/ Maybe I'm in the minority here, but if you are going to resist arrest you get what's coming to you. Not according to what the police were told: and So the cops get a call about a man trespassing, when they arrive and confront him he smells like alcohol and gets combative, eventually resisting arrest. Seems like reasonable grounds for getting his ass kicked imo. Me and mine don't trespass drunk without a shirt at synagogues, so Hugh, this is the line of reasoning I'm talking about. Don't be an ass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditkaless Wonders Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Part of my job includes training of Officers, setting Directives and protocols for them, and addressing discipline when they stray therefrom. I find the responses in this thread edifying, to a certain degree. While I will never discuss the particulars of my job or the matters handled therein I would note the following. In this day and age Departments are increasingly having to be self-insured with occassional umbrella policies possible. It is in the interests of such Departments to detach themselves from Officers with a propensity towards violence or who do not have an abiding respect for a citizen's constitutional rights. Most Departments are quick to discipline, are scrupulous in retraining, and are very likely to terminate bad officers. Standing as an impediment to so doing stands Civil Service Commissions who routinely review discipline, especially terminations. My experience is that these Commissions have a self interest in keeping Officer's on the force as they are the ones who set the hiring parameters and who in fact hire most rank and file Officers. They routinely give cops back their employment, judging that firing is too harsh a punishment for even egregious behavior. They stands in the way of cleaning up Departments. These Commissions where instituted to prevent nepotism in hiring, but they are having unintended consequences. If you want better policing you may consider pushing for more accountable Civil Service Commissions, assuming your City or Town uses this very common arrangement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimC Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) There was much outrage over the shooting in this "community". Why did they have to shoot so many times, why not just wing/wound him, and on. I thought they taught cops to kill someone if they are forced to shoot....not wing/wound them. They have to use stopping power because, if they are using their weapon, they are facing a life/death situation. Pretty sure cops should never shoot for the knees. Edited October 17, 2012 by TimC 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Irish Doggy Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 I thought they taught cops to kill someone if they are forced to shoot....not wing/wound them. They have to use stopping power because, if they are using their weapon, they are facing a life/death situation. Pretty sure cops should never shoot for the knees. In Terminator 2, Schwartzenager learned to only shoot cops in the knees. Are you saying cops aren't smarter than a cyborg? Because I think you are, and that's a shame. A real shame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh 0ne Posted October 17, 2012 Author Share Posted October 17, 2012 Hugh, this is the line of reasoning I'm talking about. Don't be an ass. While I'm normally good at intentionally being an ass, and am normally not excessively dense, I still don't follow what you're acusing me of, and am not attempting to be this ass you speak of, at least, as previously mentioned, intentionally. If you put yourself in a position of being confrontational with the authorities you are generally asking for trouble. I would not resist arrest, therefor I would not get my ass kicked. I have stated, also in this thread, that the use of force was possibly excessive, but had this not escalated it would not be a point needing to be discussed, and in this case there is only one person to blame for said escalation, and that is the drunken, trespassing shirtless guy. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimC Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 If I could be a shape-shifting cyborg future cop, I'd be like present-day wiegie. Just a small, nearly infinitesmal midget body with all my mass warped out into one hugh penis. I'd walk around being big man on campus...literally. And then I'd climb up the Eiffel Tower and steal me a woman. If only... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Steve, what you're saying above is far different than, "Me and mine don't do this, so screw it, let the cops beat the guy." I mean, that appears to be the line of reasoning going on there. And it's a major stretch comparing this to an armed man who refused to drop his weapon. Dude was being a dick to the cops and basically pushing their hands away when they initially tried to cuff him. So, again, dude screwed up, not once, but three times. Screw up 1: Being drunk and shirtless somewhere he wasn't supposed to be. That cost him having to deal with the cops Screw up 2: Not being cool and going peacefully. That cost him needing to be cuffed Screw up 3: Resisting the cuffs. Now, what that should have cost him was being forcefully slammed to the ground, a knee jammed into his back with his head being mashed into the floor while they less than delicately slapped the cuffs on him. Something along those lines. That should be the penalty for being a dick and not just turning around and putting your hands behind your back so the cops can cuff you. Again, I've made it clear that dude's actions certainly opened the door for the cops to be less than gentle with him. However, the penalty should not be getting your ass kicked by not one, but two cops. That's all I'm saying. Well that may appear to be the line of reasoning but it isn't what I'm saying. If you're dealing with authority, and snub your nose at them you'll pay the price. When you were a kid and your folks told you to behave, you listened, or got smacked. I wasn't making a direct comparison with the shooting, I was relating a similar scenario where people think cops overreacted to some idiot who didn't want to follow orders. One more thing, I had read somewhere that he threatened the cops (couldn't get that from the video), that would be another screw up. How many screw ups does he get? I (and others) have already said the cops overreacted, and could have restrained him without that violence. Sure Hugh may go to far, but he has a point, if you don't put yourself in that position, and don't act like a dick with cops, you're not going to get beaten like this. Or you can act like an idiot, threaten cops, resist arrest, and then wonder why you got beat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 I thought they taught cops to kill someone if they are forced to shoot....not wing/wound them. They have to use stopping power because, if they are using their weapon, they are facing a life/death situation. Pretty sure cops should never shoot for the knees. Exactly, that is what many in law enforcement said, this isn't the movies where you shoot the guy in the hand, arm, leg to stop them. They threaten you with a weapon, you fire for the center of mass (chest) until they go down. That is what these officers did, the number of rounds fired was seen as excessive by some. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Well that may appear to be the line of reasoning but it isn't what I'm saying. If you're dealing with authority, and snub your nose at them you'll pay the price. When you were a kid and your folks told you to behave, you listened, or got smacked. I wasn't making a direct comparison with the shooting, I was relating a similar scenario where people think cops overreacted to some idiot who didn't want to follow orders. One more thing, I had read somewhere that he threatened the cops (couldn't get that from the video), that would be another screw up. How many screw ups does he get? I (and others) have already said the cops overreacted, and could have restrained him without that violence. Sure Hugh may go to far, but he has a point, if you don't put yourself in that position, and don't act like a dick with cops, you're not going to get beaten like this. Or you can act like an idiot, threaten cops, resist arrest, and then wonder why you got beat. You seem convinced that I give two craps about this guy or feel like he should be able to do whatever the hell he wants without consequence. "How many screw-ups does he get?" Again, you make it sound as if I didn't out-line very specific consequences for each of his screw-ups. This is not the case. I think I've made myself clear. This is not about him at all. This is about expecting cops to not get their kicks by beating the crap out of someone needlessly. If you agree they went too far, then we have no argument, because I agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaterMan Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 look at all the banned people in this thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White lightning Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 First, I'm new to the tailgate so be gentle. Second, I'm a former prosecutor in Chicago that spends 80% of my time defending POs in federal lawsuits ranging from wrongful death to straight excessive force. And based on my training, experience, and the use of force paradigm the cop was justified in striking him the first 2-3 times. But once he gained the dominant position over the perp he should have attempted to restrain him instead of continuing to throw punches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egret Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 look at all the banned people in this thread Hey look! Another one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiegie Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 If I could be a shape-shifting cyborg future cop, I'd be like present-day wiegie. Just a small, nearly infinitesmal midget body with all my mass warped out into one hugh penis. I'd walk around being big man on campus...literally. And then I'd climb up the Eiffel Tower and steal me a woman. If only... Tim just basically explained my entire life story in 2.5 lines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowboutthemCowboys Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Wow, looks like I'm in the minority here. Hey, if the guy happens to get his head smacked against the corner of the pool table while you're holding him down to cuff him, so be it. You put your knee into his back with a bit more force than is absolutely needed while you've got him on the ground? Bummer. That's what you get for not going quietly. But just go ballistic on the dude? I'm shocked that anyone thinks this is OK. And, like chick on the bus, I could give two craps about this guy and he seems to have chosen a path where bad things are going to happen to him. However, I'd like to think that the cops hold themselves to a higher standard than pummeling some dude like this when all they need to do is subdue him and cuff him. remember this next time you get all wild because a customer is sipping coffee holding up a table, or asks you if it's hot enough for ya. These people deal with ANIMALS most every day of their lives. As someone pointed out...theres no audio with this video, noone knows what this dude said. IMO, you do what the police say when someone calls them on you, if you're combative or resist..especially physically... you get what's coming to you. The end Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 (edited) remember this next time you get all wild because a customer is sipping coffee holding up a table, or asks you if it's hot enough for ya. These people deal with ANIMALS most every day of their lives. As someone pointed out...theres no audio with this video, noone knows what this dude said. IMO, you do what the police say when someone calls them on you, if you're combative or resist..especially physically... you get what's coming to you. The end Like I said, then repeated, then clarified, and likely again. This guy could very well have bought himself some rough treatment. I'm not arguing against them being more forceful than normal in subduing and cuffing him. Like people have said, if you resist, you get what's coming. I guess our opinions differ in "what's coming". To me that should never include cops needlessly beating on you to "teach you a lesson". To be honest, I'm absolutely stunned and dismayed by how many don't see anything wrong in what the cops did. More still by how many use the "you don't know what he may have been saying" as if there's any words at all that should justify those actions. Edited October 31, 2012 by detlef Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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