Kaepernick kills Smith?

[Bier Meister]

the potential mistakes i am referring to are not just turnovers: things like clock and situation management. i expect more mistakes because he is young and honestly, throws down field more, and he takes more risks with his throws, and runs the ball more.... these things lead to more turnovers whether we are talking about kaepernick or not.

 

 

Many non educated fans don't realize his lone interception occurred after a bad snap. When he knelt down to retrieve the ball, he failed to read the defense. He had no idea there was a defender in position to intercept that pass when he raised up and launched the ball. Rookie mistake? Sure, but I've seen veterans commit that same error. So to the detractors that say he is turn-over prone, are sorely mistaken and need to take a NFL 101 class.

 

 

quoting to ensure it is clear that i don't believe kap is turn-over prone, rather see a higher probability than smith at this point their careers.

[tazinib1]

now Mike, I never referred to you as one of those turnover prone pundits. But I am seeing alot of it and its really not justified. In fact, its idiotic. And of course he's prone to turnovers more than an 8 year vet like Smith..cause, well, he's young. But lets take a look at the other young and rookie QB's and judge from there. I won't throw out any statistics cause..well, I'm just not in the mood to do the research. I'm sure somebody else can throw up some numbers.

Edited November 29, 2012 by tazinib1

[Bier Meister]

yes.... i am tremendously enthusiastic about his development, just understand that there is more learning/developing to come...and with that mistakes will be made. that is all fine and dandy, but i do not want to see them lose a 1st round bye and potentially playoff games due to late season grooming.

[rajncajn]

yes.... i am tremendously enthusiastic about his development, just understand that there is more learning/developing to come...and with that mistakes will be made. that is all fine and dandy, but i do not want to see them lose a 1st round bye and potentially playoff games due to late season grooming.

 

 

Not to mention the fantasy football implications if the hook comes out quickly after one or two of those mistakes.

[detlef]

Taz is apparently drunk.

[tazinib1]

Taz is apparently drunk.

 

 

lol..now what makes you think so

[mitpdub]

I can understand why so many people support Alex Smith. He's a good guy, good team player, has great stats. It's just that the D and run game have masked his weaknesses. This is a QB's league, this is Sparta the 49ers. Kaep just brings a different dynamic to the offense that Alex has not except for one game last year during the playoffs against the Saints. If Kaep can develop fast the league is in trouble. Vegas is already reading into this if you check the updated SB odds.

[hardway]

of course i will be rooting for kap to do well, but the fan in me knows better about making this decision at this time. kap will open up the playbook a bit, but will be more prone to making mistakes (something i don't love in a sb run). the 9ers formula has been playing mistake free ball and stellar defense. if the new formula works, it should provide better holes for the running attack and put less pressure on the defense. if it fails, this could be pretty bad. smith proved last year that he can get the team to the NFC conference game even with his liabilities. shoot, even in spite of his deficiencies they were a couple of pr gaffs away from the sb. he has improved this year. in fact he went 25/27 immediately before losing his job. this cannot be good for the locker room. "no matter how well you are playing, don't get injured because you can lose your job." and i think smith will walk next year as a result of this and now we are going to need a decent backup the impending injury to the running qb.

 

 

While I understand your nervousness about making a change at this point in the season, I have to ask, why do you think you know more about football, and specifically 49ers football in 2012 that Jim Harbaugh? The guys has been nothing short of phenomenal as a head coach, just have faith man!

 

As to the locker room, I am not sure that you are interpreting the message correctly. Maybe the message is more like, "I will play the best players who give us the best chance to win. Period. We are about winning." That's how Eddie D, Carmen Policy and Bill Walsh ran this team when we were on top, that's what I want to see now. We had no loyalty to players that had done so much more for us than Alex Smith ever has: Joe Montana, Roger Craig, Ronnie Lott, the list goes on. This ain't a support group, this is the NFL and we all know the immortal words of Vince Lombardi so I won't even quote him.

Edited December 1, 2012 by hardway

[Bier Meister]

While I understand your nervousness about making a change at this point in the season, I have to ask, why do you think you know more about football, and specifically 49ers football in 2012 that Jim Harbaugh? The guys has been nothing short of phenomenal as a head coach, just have faith man!

 

as someone who has followed football since the 70's (watched harbaugh come and go as a player), attended University of San Diego, and a staunch 49er fan... i have a very healthy respect for harbaugh's career as a player and coach. I believe that what he has done for our organization is outstanding. He also has a large ego and is obstinate.... so much so, that in my opinion he is unnecessarily risking a 1st round bye to groom our qb of the future now. Also imo, I believe he is rolling the dice that the defense is good enough to absorb kap's potential mistakes while gaining nfl game experience. As well as this defense is playing, this is what i think will bite us in the ass. some of these mistakes will result in dramatic changes in filed position where even the best defenses will yield pts.

 

As to the locker room, I am not sure that you are interpreting the message correctly. Maybe the message is more like, "I will play the best players who give us the best chance to win. Period. We are about winning." That's how Eddie D, Carmen Policy and Bill Walsh ran this team when we were on top, that's what I want to see now. We had no loyalty to players that had done so much more for us than Alex Smith ever has: Joe Montana, Roger Craig, Ronnie Lott, the list goes on. This ain't a support group, this is the NFL and we all know the immortal words of Vince Lombardi so I won't even quote him.

 

so, were they not about winning when smith helped the team go 13-3 (and nfc champ game) last year and 6-2-1 this year? this isn't about sending a player out the door a year or two prior to the end of their prime. i see it as him taking an unnecessary risk and losing some leverage this year as a result. i am not really crying for smith. if he was playing like crap, i'd have no issue with the move at all. i just don't love the on the job training for a qb at the 2/3 mark of a strong season.

Edited December 1, 2012 by Bier Meister

[Bier Meister]

Again, that is simply not true. Sure, they had a 4 pt lead very early in the 4th. And, no, I'm certainly not blaming Smith for the loss. But with 3 cracks with the ball and the score tied, he failed to launch any meaningful drive. So, it's simply not accurate to say he had them in the SB were it not for the fumbles.

 

 

by the same token, i am not absolving smith from a portion of blame, but imo those two plays significantly impacted the game.

[detlef]

Bier, I'm responding to the points you made in hardway's text box:

 

Mostly the one about "what about when Smith was leading them to a 13-3 record?

 

I would hope that the brain-trust of our team is constantly looking at how to make the team better. While the fans can simply be happy that our team wasn't mediocre or worse for the first time in about 10 years, it's not their job to be happy. It's their job to be paranoid perfectionists. Because that's what Walsh was and, I'm guessing, what nearly every coach/GM who excels at this level.

 

So, I think it's their job to look at the whole picture and recognize that many things broke very well for us last year. Not to mention they were feasting on a truly horrible division, one that seems to have taken a step forward this year. I also recall a variety of metrics being used to measure the Niners last year that also pointed to what could be considered unsustainable.

 

In other words, it's Harbaugh's job to put the best players on the field. Even if they're winning games with the 2nd best player at a very important position is behind center. And he seems to believe that Kaep is the best QB on the team and, oh, by the way, he's certainly playing like it right now.

[Bier Meister]

As well as this defense is playing, this is what i think will bite us in the ass. some of these mistakes will result in dramatic changes in filed position where even the best defenses will yield pts.

[Bier Meister]

lol...then he runs for 50.. now in fg range.

[Bier Meister]

[Bier Meister]

So, i have to believe that kap will start again this week. If he has another game like yesterday, do you feel compelled to keep him in for the remainder of the season, or do you go back to smith? How does this not have an impact in the locker room... to switch from hot and cold

[WashingtonD]

It's worse case scenario for Harbaugh. This is the risk he assumed when he made the switch.

[Bier Meister]

It's worse case scenario for Harbaugh. This is the risk he assumed when he made the switch.

 

 

Yep. Hot hand does not work with the qb position in the nfl

[rajncajn]

It's worse case scenario for Harbaugh. This is the risk he assumed when he made the switch.

 

 

And that's why he should have waited until Alex Smith has proven he can't get it done. Now he's pretty much burned that bridge and if there was ever any doubt that his coach wanted to replace him as soon as possible then there shouldn't be now. Harbaugh thew all of his eggs and the hen as well into Kaepernick and I dare say it could turn around and bite him long-term if Kaep isn't what they thought he was or isn't quite ready.

[Bronco Billy]

And now SF is a game away from losing a 1st round bye in the playoffs after losing on the road to a far inferior team. And all the while DCs of future opponents are building their book on Kaepernick. We'll see...

[detlef]

The way people are carrying on, you'd think he threw 5 picks or something. He had one turnover. Granted, it was returned for a TD, but chight happens. Now, I didn't watch the game and don't know the specifics about the intentional grounding. Whether or not a sack was inevitable or not. But if it was, that's as much on the O-line as it is on him.

 

For whatever reason, St. Louis plays us tough, so there's that as well.

 

And, last time I checked, Smith was still getting paid and, I'm guessing, is competitive or he wouldn't have gotten as far as he has in this game. Which means he'll very likely be ready to go if it comes to that. Either 1) to earn his job back or 2) Build his resume for his next gig. But he's got absolutely no incentive to spite the team and start mailing it in. I mean, these are very well-compensated adults who play a position that, above all others, requires a level-head and rational thinking. I'm really not certain why they need to be so tip-toed around.

 

As far as "so now they may have lost a first round bye". Well, Smith has 2 losses on the books towards that end, including a game against a Vikings team that is eactly .5 games ahead of St. Louis, where he was responsible for 2 TOs and didn't put up better numbers than Kaepernick did otherwise. That and a completely horrible game against NY (which, I understand, is certainly a better team than either Minn or St. Louis).

 

Regardless, like I said earlier, I'm signing off on this because Harbaugh is and because he's done enough so far to earn that from me.

 

I also laugh at the notion that, if SF fails to get to the NFC Championship, it will be a failure. It's the freaking NFL and anything can happen any week. The Giants needed a win on the last week just to make the play-offs and won the whole thing last year. The same thing was basically true with GB the year before. Then they went 15-1 and were one and done. Anything can happen. Making that statement assumes that Smith would certainly have gotten them there this year and you just can't say that. You just don't know.

 

Now, if Kaepernick tanks and SF can't pull out of it in time to get Smith rolling again and they back into the play-offs and get run out or something like that? Sure, then it's pretty clear that Harbaugh screwed up big-time with this.

[Bier Meister]

The way people are carrying on, you'd think he threw 5 picks or something. He had one turnover. Granted, it was returned for a TD, but chight happens. Now, I didn't watch the game and don't know the specifics about the intentional grounding. Whether or not a sack was inevitable or not. But if it was, that's as much on the O-line as it is on him.

 

he had a very "alex smith" type of game. the safety was a marginal call. the consultant for the refs stated that the line of scrimmage extends out of bounds and with his pass reaching that mark it should not have been ruled a safety. kap's error was retreating to the ez. one could almost see his thought process: he reacted like he would have at mid-field, then the switch clicked and he did what he should have... just needed to be done it earlier, and not in the ez. the fumble occurred while running an option near the goal line. very poor call for the field position. still these blunders due to an inexperienced qb resulted in a loss (you do not need to remind me of the rest of the game or missed fg in OT).

 

For whatever reason, St. Louis plays us tough, so there's that as well.

 

And, last time I checked, Smith was still getting paid and, I'm guessing, is competitive or he wouldn't have gotten as far as he has in this game. Which means he'll very likely be ready to go if it comes to that. Either 1) to earn his job back or 2) Build his resume for his next gig. But he's got absolutely no incentive to spite the team and start mailing it in. I mean, these are very well-compensated adults who play a position that, above all others, requires a level-head and rational thinking. I'm really not certain why they need to be so tip-toed around.

 

i mostly agree with this. the problem i foresee is that while harbaugh has made few mistakes as a HC, is that this may hurt him in the locker room. he removed a very efficient qb for the qb of the future... and have now take a step backwards. if they lose the 2nd seed and they get an earlier than expected exit from the playoffs some doubt will creep in (whether it is vocalized or not).

 

As far as "so now they may have lost a first round bye". Well, Smith has 2 losses on the books towards that end, including a game against a Vikings team that is eactly .5 games ahead of St. Louis, where he was responsible for 2 TOs and didn't put up better numbers than Kaepernick did otherwise. That and a completely horrible game against NY (which, I understand, is certainly a better team than either Minn or St. Louis).

 

these guys are human. they are going to make mistakes here and there. right now i expect smith to make fewer of them.

 

Regardless, like I said earlier, I'm signing off on this because Harbaugh is and because he's done enough so far to earn that from me.

 

I also laugh at the notion that, if SF fails to get to the NFC Championship, it will be a failure. It's the freaking NFL and anything can happen any week. The Giants needed a win on the last week just to make the play-offs and won the whole thing last year. The same thing was basically true with GB the year before. Then they went 15-1 and were one and done. Anything can happen. Making that statement assumes that Smith would certainly have gotten them there this year and you just can't say that. You just don't know.

 

they set a high standard last year, but i think it is a realistic one at this point. the team is certainly strong enough to reach that game. anything can happen so between the two, i would want to take the lower risk and go with experience. there are going to more situations that kap has not seen, so we have more variables with him.

 

Now, if Kaepernick tanks and SF can't pull out of it in time to get Smith rolling again and they back into the play-offs and get run out or something like that? Sure, then it's pretty clear that Harbaugh screwed up big-time with this.

 

i don't think i am so pesimistic that it's the end of days for the 9ers, but going back and forth can be a bit disruptive. i can see it as 1 step back for 2 steps forward, just think it is ill-timed in a league where you have to take advantage of opportunities when you get them.

[i_am_the_swammi]

I thought the "Can we all be done with this ridiculous Tim Tebow 2.0 experiment" look on Smith's face as he was leaving the field was pretty funny.

[Bronco Billy]

Smith's response to this snafu has been incredible. The guy got panned his first few years (understandably) and finally through perservence and hard work has elevated his play so that he is among the leaders in several important criteria for measuring QB play. Then even though his play has remained stellar he loses his job to a kid who has some great physical attributes but also still has a ton to learn.

 

Still makes no sense to me for a team right in the midst of its SB window of opportunity.

Edited December 4, 2012 by Bronco Billy

[rajncajn]

Smith's response to this snafu has been incredible. The guy got panned his few few years (understandably) and finally through perservence and hard work has elevated his play so that he is among the leaders in several important criteria for measuring QB play. Then even though his play has remained sellar he loses his job to. Who has some great physical attributes but also still has a ton to learn.

 

Still makes no sense to me for a team right in the midst of its SB opportunity.

 

 

Not intending to be cantankerous or attempting to incite an argument with the SF fans, but the only reasoning I can find is pure stubborn arrogance. I just don't see any other excuse for benching Smith, but then again I wouldn't pretend to consider myself an NFL coach so as a fan all you can do is trust the guy & hope it all works out.

[KOKIDKOKID]

Kind of awkward watching Smith go out for the coin toss as a team captain too.

 

Also, any chance of altering the title of this thread...kind of seems poorly phrased now in light of what happened in KC - I know this topic pre-dates that by a while though...probably just me being too PC (never been accused of that before).

 

KO'd