Gore fumble recovery TD

[Joebirds55]

Because it was a fumble recovery td and that's how the rules work

[Ursa Majoris]

I had Gore and I'm down 1.95 points tonight with the Jets D to go. I'm hoping they get them for me and surely they should. If we specifically had that score, I'd have won already. I've asked our league to add this type of score for 2013.

[Joebirds55]

Got some pts on that block there, although they haven't shown up on cbs....ill be sweating this

[electricrelish]

I wouldn't say an oversite, just not a standard offensive scoring category (like rusing, passing, receiving TDs) so it wasn't defined when we first used the site (many years ago). (Maybe the site didn't have the category before and it was added. According to CBS less than 5% of leagues score these fumble recovery TDs.

 

Either way, we've played under these rules for years, at this point we're not chaning during the season because now it affects a playoff game. In fact the other owner involved in this game had Garcon in Week 4 when the same thing happened to him. Didn't affect his game outcome, but did affect some other things with points that mattered.

 

Does your league have a constitution? We had the same problem in our dynasty leagues. Our constitution said we allowed fumble recovery TD's, but MFL was not setup correctly. Since it was stated in our constitution, we corrected the error. My point is that it's a good idea for every league to have a constitution.

[detlef]

yahoo went as far as posting an alert on league home pages this afternoon about the play....guess they're getting hammered with inquiries

 

Just logged in to the yahoo league that I'm commissioner of to check the scoring settings. I couldn't remember whether there was an "all-TDs" box or if they broke it down. There is, however, an offensive fumble return box to be checked. And, to be honest, it's not like it's hiding amongst a bunch of others. There's 4 things in the misc. category, 2 pts conversion, fumbles, fumbles lost, and offensive fumble return TD.

[stevegrab]

You gotta get credit for a fumble recovery for a TD. Your player that you started scored a TD! How can you not get credit for that???? It's more of an oversight that it isn't scored because somebody forgot to put "offensive fumble recovery for a TD" in the scoring. If this has come up before, and you have decided not to award points for it, I guess I can understand (but it is retarded). But if it hasn't come up before, he should get the TD!

 

 

It has come up before, several times (thought I stated that), including numerous years ago and we covered it with the entire league. And yes we decided (as a league) at that time and going forward that these would not be awarded points.

 

It may have been set up by default to not score these (when we first got on CBS) but we've known that fumble recovery TDs have not been scored. That rule has never been changed in our league. Are all owners aware of it, I don't know but they should be.

 

It isn't retarded, any more than giving 4 points for the passing TD and 6 points for the receiving TD is retarded, its just a different scoring rule. Or using D/ST vs. team defense only vs. IDP.

 

This owner doesn't like the explanation he is getting and continues to argue "this is a correction not a rule change."

[stevegrab]

Does your league have a constitution? We had the same problem in our dynasty leagues. Our constitution said we allowed fumble recovery TD's, but MFL was not setup correctly. Since it was stated in our constitution, we corrected the error. My point is that it's a good idea for every league to have a constitution.

 

 

 

We do have a constitution, it does not specifically address this situation. We probably should have added it when it first came up and we found the scoring category was not being used. But without that, the scoring rules are our rules and they do not include fumble recovery TDs, so there are no points awarded. And the only way to award points is a rule change.

 

This isn't a case of where we intended to score it, but didn't set the league up properly.

[stevegrab]

Just logged in to the yahoo league that I'm commissioner of to check the scoring settings. I couldn't remember whether there was an "all-TDs" box or if they broke it down. There is, however, an offensive fumble return box to be checked. And, to be honest, it's not like it's hiding amongst a bunch of others. There's 4 things in the misc. category, 2 pts conversion, fumbles, fumbles lost, and offensive fumble return TD.

 

 

And it was checked right, since you said you set all the leagues you commish up to include it.

 

I was looking at the scoring categories on CBS, under offense - misc, they have both individual (IFRTD) and offensive (OFRTD) fumble recovery TD. I wonder what the distinction is. If we decide to include fumble recovery TDs we'll probably turn both on.

[detlef]

 

It has come up before, several times (thought I stated that), including numerous years ago and we covered it with the entire league. And yes we decided (as a league) at that time and going forward that these would not be awarded points.

 

It may have been set up by default to not score these (when we first got on CBS) but we've known that fumble recovery TDs have not been scored. That rule has never been changed in our league. Are all owners aware of it, I don't know but they should be.

 

It isn't retarded, any more than giving 4 points for the passing TD and 6 points for the receiving TD is retarded, its just a different scoring rule. Or using D/ST vs. team defense only vs. IDP.

 

This owner doesn't like the explanation he is getting and continues to argue "this is a correction not a rule change."

 

Well, the owner in question needs to get over it because, like you said, this has happened before this year, it was discussed (right?) and pts were not awarded.

 

I do take exception to the "no worse than giving 4 instead of 6 pts for passing TD" because there's a very good reason for that. 25 TDs for a QB is just good but certainly not great. 25 receiving TDs would break the NFL record. So, there's a very specific rationale for that. That's not saying there's no argument against that rationale, but there's at least one for it.

 

Arbitrarily deciding that a FF player that is started should not get any pts at all for scoring a TD because of the manner in which he scored it is less defensible. I mean, what is the rationale besides, "that's the way we do it"?

[Jackass]

You gotta get credit for a fumble recovery for a TD. Your player that you started scored a TD! How can you not get credit for that???? It's more of an oversight that it isn't scored because somebody forgot to put "offensive fumble recovery for a TD" in the scoring. If this has come up before, and you have decided not to award points for it, I guess I can understand (but it is retarded). But if it hasn't come up before, he should get the TD!

 

 

It should be a TD, but if it's not in the league settings, i think it has to be changed going forward.

[Big Country]

Well, the owner in question needs to get over it because, like you said, this has happened before this year, it was discussed (right?) and pts were not awarded.

 

I do take exception to the "no worse than giving 4 instead of 6 pts for passing TD" because there's a very good reason for that. 25 TDs for a QB is just good but certainly not great. 25 receiving TDs would break the NFL record. So, there's a very specific rationale for that. That's not saying there's no argument against that rationale, but there's at least one for it.

 

Arbitrarily deciding that a FF player that is started should not get any pts at all for scoring a TD because of the manner in which he scored it is less defensible. I mean, what is the rationale besides, "that's the way we do it"?

 

 

How is that any different than your rationale between scoring 4 or 6 pts for passing TDs? Or giving reception points or not? Or giving more points for longer FGs? Or taking points away for Interceptions or fumbles?

 

Everything about FF is based on "That's the way we do it?". Every single statement anyone makes that some rule is better than some other variation or rule, etc. is nothing more than personal opinion.

 

 

I am in leagues that use IDP and some are team D and one doesn't even include D, some have reception points and some don;t and one uses graduated reception points by position. Some have a flex, a couple have multiple flex and one has no flex. Some score 6 pts for passing TDs and some score 4 pts. Some take points away for INTs and some don't. Some are redraft, some are dynasty and one is partial keeper. You know what, none is better than the other, I like the variety and the fact that the different variations require a different strategy and team management approach.

 

Are there options that I prefer? Yes, but that is simply my opinion. I do not like the "double-dipping" of scoring - my preference is if you have a team D/ST position, they should get the points for defense/ST plays, and individuals should not in those instances. Is my opinion of this worth any more or less than yours on the matter - no, it is opinion. Just as is the decision of this particular league to not score Offensive Fumble Recovery TDs. Is my opinion that they should be scored - yes. Does that change the facts in this case? No. The facts are the league does not score it, has consciously agreed to not score it based on past precedent, and thus it is pretty darn clear that it should not be scored in this case. One's opinion of the rule is not material to the discussion or to how the situation should be handled.

[nelsosi]

It has come up before, several times (thought I stated that)

 

This is the one thing that needs to be remembered here. This is not a particularly unique play - it happens a few times a year. It happened a few weeks ago when Pierre Garcon recovered an RG3 fumble (same result as the Gore play).

[detlef]

How is that any different than your rationale between scoring 4 or 6 pts for passing TDs? Or giving reception points or not? Or giving more points for longer FGs? Or taking points away for Interceptions or fumbles?

 

Everything about FF is based on "That's the way we do it?". Every single statement anyone makes that some rule is better than some other variation or rule, etc. is nothing more than personal opinion.

 

 

I am in leagues that use IDP and some are team D and one doesn't even include D, some have reception points and some don;t and one uses graduated reception points by position. Some have a flex, a couple have multiple flex and one has no flex. Some score 6 pts for passing TDs and some score 4 pts. Some take points away for INTs and some don't. Some are redraft, some are dynasty and one is partial keeper. You know what, none is better than the other, I like the variety and the fact that the different variations require a different strategy and team management approach.

 

Are there options that I prefer? Yes, but that is simply my opinion. I do not like the "double-dipping" of scoring - my preference is if you have a team D/ST position, they should get the points for defense/ST plays, and individuals should not in those instances. Is my opinion of this worth any more or less than yours on the matter - no, it is opinion. Just as is the decision of this particular league to not score Offensive Fumble Recovery TDs. Is my opinion that they should be scored - yes. Does that change the facts in this case? No. The facts are the league does not score it, has consciously agreed to not score it based on past precedent, and thus it is pretty darn clear that it should not be scored in this case. One's opinion of the rule is not material to the discussion or to how the situation should be handled.

 

You really don't see the difference?

 

There is actually a reason, beyond "it's just the way we do it." Sure, that reason is common to both, but in the case of the relative value of passing vs catching TDs, it's "It's the way we do it because FF QBs rack up TDs faster than FF WRs, RBs, and TEs do. There's random guys who you'd never dream of starting poaching some of these TD catches."

 

Now, again, you may not agree with the logic but there is at least a specific thought process that went into it. It's an attempt to increase the relative scoring of non-QBs to QBs. That is the reason.

 

So I ask, again, what is the thought process that goes into not wanting a play like what Gore did on Sunday night to not count as a TD? Because some WR may play a few downs at CB, intercept a pass, and run it back? And why is that bad?

 

That's the folly in leaning on the "hey, we've all got an opinion" deal. Sure. But is one "opinion" based on an explainable thought process, the other is based on, "hey you like it your way, I like it mine"

 

BTW, your double dipping bit is a valid point against my bit about, "I don't care how you score", but not against not rewarding offensive recoveries. At least in your case, you can say, "Someone did get credit for that TD" if a started player runs back a kick. However, in this case, it's like the TD never happened, even though a guy actually started the player who scored it.

Edited December 18, 2012 by detlef

[chamois3805]

1) If your rules don't say in any certain terms that it does get scored, then he has no leg to stand on.

 

2) In-season scoring changes are problematic enough, but when it's the person who benefits from the rule change that's calling for it, then they are only acting in self-interest and not being objective.

 

Further, "I thought" and "I didn't know" simply cannot fly this deep into the season. Perhaps if it's caught early the first time it happens, but you can't just go changing rules, most definitely not scoring, during the playoffs.

 

 

I could not agree more. If your rules have been set all year to define which TDs are credited to a player and fumble recovery TD is not one, no credit should be given here, regardless of whether this was set intentionally or by default.

[Big Country]

You really don't see the difference?

 

There is actually a reason, beyond "it's just the way we do it." Sure, that reason is common to both, but in the case of the relative value of passing vs catching TDs, it's "It's the way we do it because FF QBs rack up TDs faster than FF WRs, RBs, and TEs do. There's random guys who you'd never dream of starting poaching some of these TD catches."

 

Now, again, you may not agree with the logic but there is at least a specific thought process that went into it. It's an attempt to increase the relative scoring of non-QBs to QBs. That is the reason.

 

So I ask, again, what is the thought process that goes into not wanting a play like what Gore did on Sunday night to not count as a TD? Because some WR may play a few downs at CB, intercept a pass, and run it back? And why is that bad?

 

That's the folly in leaning on the "hey, we've all got an opinion" deal. Sure. But is one "opinion" based on an explainable thought process, the other is based on, "hey you like it your way, I like it mine"

 

BTW, your double dipping bit is a valid point against my bit about, "I don't care how you score", but not against not rewarding offensive recoveries. At least in your case, you can say, "Someone did get credit for that TD" if a started player runs back a kick. However, in this case, it's like the TD never happened, even though a guy actually started the player who scored it.

 

 

Take out the specifics of OFRTD - I agree that it should be scored, however, what I am getting at is that the decision to score/not score the play is up to the individual league. Again, my opinion is that the play should be scored, but in this case, the league has even had votes to specifically not score this kind of play. Completely their perogative.

 

 

As for the passing TDs, again, your opinion that adjusting the relative value of QBs down is a positive. The counter argument that is often made is that Qbs are the most important position in real football, so why not in FF. My opinion on this topic is well known on the boards, so I'll just say that there are counter arguments there that many will say hold up validity wise. To me, that decision is the same as including/not including reception points to augment the relative value of WRs/TEs. It is a matter of opinion and league preference.

 

Do I think there are logical differences in the arguments for each rule (in particular the OFRTD rule) - yes, but at the end of the day, all of them come down to league preference on the matter. There is no cut and dry right/wrong way to score in fantasy football.

[stevegrab]

Well the disgruntled owner is still not happy and wants to use our "formal protest" which is setup to handle scoring changes that happen after Tuesday (say on Thursday Elias credits a player with 100 instead of 99 yards and that means an additional point). He thinks that fits this scenario. And when the two commissioners get a little heated with their responses he gets defensive and says he is being reasonable.

 

BC thanks for backing up my basic point, too many times these threas turn into a "this is what I do, you should run your league that way". No rule is more right than another, just personal preference of that league.

 

And to try to clarify, we never intentionally exluced this, it was just the default. But over the past several years it has come up, been pointed out and discussed. And yet we still don't count them. When the Garcon TD happened (was actually back in week 4) we discussed it with the owner of that player (who happens to be the opponent of the Gore owner) and he accepted our explanation (OFRTD are not scored by our league.) We failed to go over it at that time, but are certain it happened before and we covered it with the league (and the Gore owner was a member).

 

My co commish is fed up and it takes a lot to get him there. He's covering it in the weekly recap and we're moving on. The Gore owner is probably going to remain unhappy, and may gripe to some of his friends in the league.

 

The guy keeps saying "offensive TD is an offensive TD" as if him repeating it will convince he is right. And he thinks he's being reasonable.

[electricrelish]

And to try to clarify, we never intentionally exluced this, it was just the default. But over the past several years it has come up, been pointed out and discussed. And yet we still don't count them.

 

Why not?

 

The scoring should remain as it is for this year, especially since there is a precedence for it; however I think that this is a terrible way to lose and the whole league should be ashamed for not counting this type of scoring when the subject has come up before. If the owner who will lose the Gore TD this week, said nothing in the past, then shame on him and shame on the league.

Edited December 18, 2012 by electricrelish

[detlef]

Take out the specifics of OFRTD - I agree that it should be scored, however, what I am getting at is that the decision to score/not score the play is up to the individual league. Again, my opinion is that the play should be scored, but in this case, the league has even had votes to specifically not score this kind of play. Completely their perogative.

 

 

As for the passing TDs, again, your opinion that adjusting the relative value of QBs down is a positive. The counter argument that is often made is that Qbs are the most important position in real football, so why not in FF. My opinion on this topic is well known on the boards, so I'll just say that there are counter arguments there that many will say hold up validity wise. To me, that decision is the same as including/not including reception points to augment the relative value of WRs/TEs. It is a matter of opinion and league preference.

 

Do I think there are logical differences in the arguments for each rule (in particular the OFRTD rule) - yes, but at the end of the day, all of them come down to league preference on the matter. There is no cut and dry right/wrong way to score in fantasy football.

 

I'm still waiting for the thought process that goes into not wanting to award OFRTDs. That's all I was trying to say. You pointing out that there's a viable counter argument to the 4/6 pt TD deal doesn't change my initial assertion that, at least there's an actual argument.

 

So, in that case, it does simply come down to "there's an argument for both, so take your pick".

 

Now, what is the argument in favor of not scoring OFRTD that would make this the same sort of "take your pick" sort of deal? Obviously, at the end of the day, sure, anyone can score their league how they want. Hell, you can give 5 pts for missed FGs if you want. It's your league. However, wouldn't you be curious as to why someone would do that? And wouldn't you take exception to "It's no different than choosing to have passing TDs count for less than catching them." Because you have a reason for why you do the TD thing other than, "it's my league, I score things how I want."

[delusions of grandeur]

So I ask, again, what is the thought process that goes into not wanting a play like what Gore did on Sunday night to not count as a TD? Because some WR may play a few downs at CB, intercept a pass, and run it back? And why is that bad?

 

 

Plenty of possible reasons.

 

As I said earlier, do you usually reward offensive fumble recoveries and returns anywhere else on the field? Do you get any points for that or yardage on the return? If not, then it stands to reason that your league does not value offensive fumbler recoveries or the return. Thus, by extension, you could say that the TDs aren't worth anything either.

 

Really I don't care one way or the other, but the action is really just someone on that person's team losing the football that someone else happens to recover on his same team (which is not scored in almost all leagues), which happened to fall in a place where he could scoop it up and take it in, if it's not in the endzone already and it just lands at his feet. Could take skill, could easily not, but the action isn't the same as the defensive team recovering a turnover, nor is it necessarily scored as such.

 

So am I supposed to shed a tear for the Gore owner whose player should have never gotten that opportunity if the play had gone the way it was supposed to and Kaepernick didn't fumble it?

 

Again, I don't have a problem with him getting the TD, but there is plenty of justification that could be used to not reward it. Good for you if "every TD counts" in your league, but in some leagues, only the TDs they decide are worth counting get counted and there can be good reasoning, even if you don't personally agree with it. There are plenty of legitimate setups I don't agree with.

[electricrelish]

Plenty of possible reasons.

 

As I said earlier, do you usually reward offensive fumble recoveries and returns anywhere else on the field? Do you get any points for that or yardage on the return? If not, then it stands to reason that your league does not value offensive fumbler recoveries or the return. Thus, by extension, you could say that the TDs aren't worth anything either.

 

Really I don't care one way or the other, but the action is really just someone on that person's team losing the football that someone else happens to recover on his same team (which is not scored in almost all leagues), which happened to fall in a place where he could scoop it up and take it in, if it's not in the endzone already and it just lands at his feet. Could take skill, could easily not, but the action isn't the same as the defensive team recovering a turnover, nor is it necessarily scored as such.

 

So am I supposed to shed a tear for the Gore owner whose player should have never gotten that opportunity if the play had gone the way it was supposed to and Kaepernick didn't fumble it?

 

Again, I don't have a problem with him getting the TD, but there is plenty of justification that could be used to not reward it. Good for you if "every TD counts" in your league, but in some leagues, only the TDs they decide are worth counting get counted and there can be good reasoning, even if you don't personally agree with it. There are plenty of legitimate setups I don't agree with.

 

 

I have to respectably disagree. I don't think not scoring offensive fumble recovery TD's is legitimate in terms of general common sense. It's stupid not to count them.

 

A TD is a TD whether it took tremendous skill or was just dumb luck. All TD's should be accounted for in some way imho.

Edited December 18, 2012 by electricrelish

[3rd and schlong]

Yeah I just lost to Opie on this in the huddle ladder

[delusions of grandeur]

I have to respectively disagree. I don't think not scoring offensive fumble recovery TD's is legitimate in terms of general common sense. It's stupid not to count them.

 

A TD is a TD whether it took tremendous skill or was just dumb luck. All TD's should be accounted for in some way imho.

 

And as I said in the very last sentence, there are plenty of setups I disagree with, but it doesn't make them any less legitimate. Unless you and I are starting another league together, then it really doesn't matter that we disagree. Det's question was what possible justification, and there is plenty of justification. I can see plenty of reasons why someone would not feel offensive fumble recoveries worth scoring, even if they did happen to make it to (or already be in) the endzone.

 

Personally, I really don't care, so have already spent too much time defending it, but people want to act like this is some travesty because this scoring category wasn't added, when many leagues have different things that are and aren't rewarded.

[electricrelish]

And as I said in the very last sentence, there are plenty of setups I disagree with, but it doesn't make them any less legitimate. Unless you and I are starting another league together, then it really doesn't matter that we disagree. Det's question was what possible justification, and there is plenty of justification. I can see plenty of reasons why someone would not feel offensive fumble recoveries worth scoring, even if they did happen to make it to (or already be in) the endzone.

 

Personally, I really don't care, so have already spent too much time defending it, but people want to act like this is some travesty because this scoring category wasn't added, when many leagues have different things that are and aren't rewarded.

 

I see your point that everything is relative to individual leagues; however, I believe not scoring a fumble recovery TD is a travesty because I subscribe to the philosophy that Ralph Waldo Emerson wrote, "To believe your own thought, to believe that what is true for you in your private heart is true for all men -- that is genius."

Edited December 18, 2012 by electricrelish

[nelsosi]

I think it's silly to give bonus points for long runs/receptions, or hitting certain yardage thresholds, because a yard is a yard IMO, but I recognize that this is something that many leagues do. You can't just say "a TD is a TD".....FF is filled with arbitrary scoring systems.

 

Officially, this was an OFRTD. Your league either scores those or doesn't. It's really not any more complicated than that.

Edited December 18, 2012 by nelsosi

[electricrelish]

Yeah I just lost to Opie on this in the huddle ladder

 

I'm embarrassed that the Huddle Ladder does not score fumble recovery TD's.