Gore fumble recovery TD

[BeachBum]

I have to respectably disagree. I don't think not scoring offensive fumble recovery TD's is legitimate in terms of general common sense. It's stupid not to count them.

 

A TD is a TD whether it took tremendous skill or was just dumb luck. All TD's should be accounted for in some way imho.

 

 

But how are you going to "account for them" if it's the OG or Center who recovers the fumble? It's still a TD but you have no player to give it to - unless you use individual Offensive Lineman positions too!

[detlef]

Plenty of possible reasons.

 

As I said earlier, do you usually reward offensive fumble recoveries and returns anywhere else on the field? Do you get any points for that or yardage on the return? If not, then it stands to reason that your league does not value offensive fumbler recoveries or the return. Thus, by extension, you could say that the TDs aren't worth anything either.

 

Really I don't care one way or the other, but the action is really just someone on that person's team losing the football that someone else happens to recover on his same team (which is not scored in almost all leagues), which happened to fall in a place where he could scoop it up and take it in, if it's not in the endzone already and it just lands at his feet. Could take skill, could easily not, but the action isn't the same as the defensive team recovering a turnover, nor is it necessarily scored as such.

 

So am I supposed to shed a tear for the Gore owner whose player should have never gotten that opportunity if the play had gone the way it was supposed to and Kaepernick didn't fumble it?

 

Again, I don't have a problem with him getting the TD, but there is plenty of justification that could be used to not reward it. Good for you if "every TD counts" in your league, but in some leagues, only the TDs they decide are worth counting get counted and there can be good reasoning, even if you don't personally agree with it. There are plenty of legitimate setups I don't agree with.

 

Um, if the play had "gone the way it was supposed to" then Gore, instead of having to pick the ball up off the ground would have had it handed to him, running at full speed towards the endzone. It absolutely seemed like a designed running play intended for him.

 

We can agree to disagree on the validity of the rest. Sounds like hypothetical backpedaling to me rather than an actual sound basis for a rule, but hey, "we're all entitled to our opinion", right?

Edited December 18, 2012 by detlef

[detlef]

But how are you going to "account for them" if it's the OG or Center who recovers the fumble? It's still a TD but you have no player to give it to - unless you use individual Offensive Lineman positions too!

 

this also seems like a strawman. There are countless number of pts earned in FF that go to guys that nobody started, even by those who actually play positions that are accounted for in FF. Most every FB in football scores a TD or gains yards every now and then. Has Lorenzo Neal ever graced the starting line-up of any FF roster?

 

By your same logic, what happens when a OT reports as a TE and catches a TD? Should we exclude receiving TDs because we've failed to take those instances into account?

[3rd and schlong]

Rules are rules, though. I would have liked to play in the championship obviously, but going by the rules it's Opies win.

[Joebirds55]

It sucks but rules are rules. And it just so happens that this "fumble" wasn't what were used to where a guy loses the rock it gets kicked all over the field and something random happens and he picks it up in the end zone. If kaep was sprinting down field and got clocked lost the ball and it got knocked into the end zone we wouldn't even be having this convo (well actually we still probably would). Context of the play itself plays a huge role

[XFlash]

Oh, I see now after reading the first 2 pages, this was not on MFL, but a Huddler website?

 

your rules are clear, nothing you can do.

 

Most use MFL. In my league, I turned on just about every way a player can score. Especially since we use IDP. NFL players can play in multiple positions ( offense, defense, special teams) It is easier to have the option used to cover as many bases as you can.

[delusions of grandeur]

We can agree to disagree on the validity of the rest. Sounds like hypothetical backpedaling to me rather than an actual sound basis for a rule, but hey, "we're all entitled to our opinion", right?

 

 

Backpedaling? I have no idea what you're talking about, but perhaps you should backpedal on insinuating that your way is the only right way to play this game.

 

Look, if the action doesn't get rewarded points, the return doesn't get rewarded yardage, then there's your justification for why a league might not see fit to reward a TD for an action that anywhere else on the field would not be rewarded whatsoever.

 

I mean, I don't see why it's such a stretch that on a category where you have instances like the Griffin play where the QB fumbled the ball and it just happened to go forward into the endzone, that the player who happened to be there to fall on it and save him a turnover should be automatically treated the same as if he caught, recieved or passed the ball. If you do fine, but I don't see why you have such an issue with others justifications for why they don't treat this like some ordinary scoring category.

[detlef]

Backpedaling? I have no idea what you're talking about, but perhaps you should backpedal on insinuating that your way is the only right way to play this game.

 

Look, if the action doesn't get rewarded points, the return doesn't get rewarded yardage, then there's your justification for why a league might not see fit to reward a TD for an action that anywhere else on the field would not be rewarded whatsoever.

 

I mean, I don't see why it's such a stretch that on a category where you have instances like the Griffin play where the QB fumbled the ball and it just happened to go forward into the endzone, that the player who happened to be there to fall on it and save him a turnover should be automatically treated the same as if he caught, recieved or passed the ball. If you do fine, but I don't see why you have such an issue with others justifications for why they don't treat this like some ordinary scoring category.

 

 

Tell you what, I'm just going to ignore your petty BS about pretending that I feel every league should be scored the same way I do (I mean, for chrissakes! How many times do I have to say that I've got no issue with other scoring systems, I just have issue with the notion of "every way is just as good as the next because, 'hey, it's just your opinion man'").

 

So, I'm just going to try and break this down like you're an actual rational adult, because I know you are.

 

So, here's the slippery slope with awarding a player like Gore 6 pts when, instead of having the ball handed to him at full speed, running towards the endzone, he had to stop, turn around, and pick it up off the ground before running into the endzone. I see, btw, that you haven't bothered to address your initial point about him somehow lucking into possession of a ball not intended for him. At any rate. So, if we're to award a player for doing what he did, which any rational person would agree is actually harder than simply taking a hand-off and scoring a rushing TD, then we also have to award players who alertly jump on a ball in the endzone, which results in their team getting a TD rather than the other team getting a touchback and squandering a red zone possession?

 

Is that really it? Is that the "unintended consequence" of giving Gore almost as many pts for taking a broken play and scoring on it as he would have had his QB not fumbled the ball, yet again, and simply handed it to him like he was supposed to? That we also have to award players for bailing out their team and, as a result, getting them 6 (really 7) pts as opposed to walking off the field dejected while the other team gets the ball at the 20?

 

Sorry, but that's got "strawman" written all over it.

 

Oh, I'm sorry, I missed the other argument. That, since the NFL only recognizes Gore with having scored the TD, but not the yards he ran to do so, that a league shouldn't give him the 6 that the NFL is prepared to give him credit for? Did I get that right? Seriously?

Edited December 19, 2012 by detlef

[Ursa Majoris]

This is the one thing that needs to be remembered here. This is not a particularly unique play - it happens a few times a year. It happened a few weeks ago when Pierre Garcon recovered an RG3 fumble (same result as the Gore play).

 

 

Brandon Lloyd also

[stevegrab]

Oh, I see now after reading the first 2 pages, this was not on MFL, but a Huddler website?

 

your rules are clear, nothing you can do.

 

Most use MFL. In my league, I turned on just about every way a player can score. Especially since we use IDP. NFL players can play in multiple positions ( offense, defense, special teams) It is easier to have the option used to cover as many bases as you can.

 

 

Just another clarification and update.

 

First this has nothing to do with league management software, we are on CBS and just never chose to score these TDs from the beginning over 10 years ago. We can turn the option on/off, just as I presume you can on MFL. And you are right, rules are rules.

 

update - my co-commish posted the weekly recap and covered this, explaining to the whole league including why the rule will note be changed now, no TD will be awarded and no appeal or protest will be allowed. Although he did suggest people comment on the msg board, which is quite.

[Big Country]

I have to respectably disagree. I don't think not scoring offensive fumble recovery TD's is legitimate in terms of general common sense. It's stupid not to count them.

 

A TD is a TD whether it took tremendous skill or was just dumb luck. All TD's should be accounted for in some way imho.

 

 

Based on the stat provided that only 5% (or some other single digit percentage) of CBS leagues (not sure if Yahoo leagues provide a similar stat) score the offensive fumble recovery, it would seem that the large majority of leagues disagree with your assertion that it is general common sense.

[electricrelish]

Based on the stat provided that only 5% (or some other single digit percentage) of CBS leagues (not sure if Yahoo leagues provide a similar stat) score the offensive fumble recovery, it would seem that the large majority of leagues disagree with your assertion that it is general common sense.

 

OK, scratch the word common. Make that good sense..and yes it's my opinion. Like I said, I'm embarrassed that BoTH leagues like the Huddle Ladder and JLA don't score fumble recovery TD's. I'm not really surprised at all by CBS Sportsline leagues.

Edited December 19, 2012 by electricrelish

[delusions of grandeur]

Tell you what, I'm just going to ignore your petty BS about pretending that I feel every league should be scored the same way I do (I mean, for chrissakes! How many times do I have to say that I've got no issue with other scoring systems, I just have issue with the notion of "every way is just as good as the next because, 'hey, it's just your opinion man'").

 

So, I'm just going to try and break this down like you're an actual rational adult, because I know you are.

 

So, here's the slippery slope with awarding a player like Gore 6 pts when, instead of having the ball handed to him at full speed, running towards the endzone, he had to stop, turn around, and pick it up off the ground before running into the endzone. I see, btw, that you haven't bothered to address your initial point about him somehow lucking into possession of a ball not intended for him. At any rate. So, if we're to award a player for doing what he did, which any rational person would agree is actually harder than simply taking a hand-off and scoring a rushing TD, then we also have to award players who alertly jump on a ball in the endzone, which results in their team getting a TD rather than the other team getting a touchback and squandering a red zone possession?

 

Is that really it? Is that the "unintended consequence" of giving Gore almost as many pts for taking a broken play and scoring on it as he would have had his QB not fumbled the ball, yet again, and simply handed it to him like he was supposed to? That we also have to award players for bailing out their team and, as a result, getting them 6 (really 7) pts as opposed to walking off the field dejected while the other team gets the ball at the 20?

 

Sorry, but that's got "strawman" written all over it.

 

Oh, I'm sorry, I missed the other argument. That, since the NFL only recognizes Gore with having scored the TD, but not the yards he ran to do so, that a league shouldn't give him the 6 that the NFL is prepared to give him credit for? Did I get that right? Seriously?

 

Look, you've basically forced me to argue a position I don't even necessarily agree with (I'm pretty indifferent on the matter), because you asked for what possible reasoning for it, so I provided it.

 

Point being that it's plenty good enough justification why someone wouldn't see fit to put all offensive fumble recovery scores on par with more traditional scores that are almost never flukey. The very fact that it might at times be tougher or at times be just a fluke should give plenty of justification for those who only want to reward clear-cut reward-worthy scores (in their eyes).

 

There's no slippery slope. You value any score being scored, whereas some might value only using scoring categories where it's far more likely to not jsut be a fluke and based on more traditional performance. Absolutely nothing wrong with either approach.

 

I regret even trying to give a hypothetical about why some leagues might operate this way, because despite your claims that you're not concerned about other leagues, you seem hell-bent to tell people they're wrong, when it's entirely arbitrary and personal choice.

[detlef]

Look, you've basically forced me to argue a position I don't even necessarily agree with (I'm pretty indifferent on the matter), because you asked for what possible reasoning for it, so I provided it.

 

Point being that it's plenty good enough justification why someone wouldn't see fit to put all offensive fumble recovery scores on par with more traditional scores that are almost never flukey. The very fact that it might at times be tougher or at times be just a fluke should give plenty of justification for those who only want to reward clear-cut reward-worthy scores (in their eyes).

 

There's no slippery slope. You value any score being scored, whereas some might value only using scoring categories where it's far more likely to not jsut be a fluke and based on more traditional performance. Absolutely nothing wrong with either approach.

 

I regret even trying to give a hypothetical about why some leagues might operate this way, because despite your claims that you're not concerned about other leagues, you seem hell-bent to tell people they're wrong, when it's entirely arbitrary and personal choice.

 

Dude, the whole tangent started because someone said "It's no different than scoring TD passes differently than TD receptions". And that's the part I took exception to.

 

The 4 pts rather than 6 pts was a specific and thought out solution to what someone recognized as a problem with FF scoring. I'm sure I don't need to go into the argument, but the scoring was the result of a rationale.

 

That is hardly the same thing as you rising to the challenge and backtracking from the end result to speculate as to why someone might do it. Especially in light of the fact that the very person who initially made the "it's no different than" argument actually admits that they did not intentionally set the scoring this way, it's just how it was and they needed to stay consistent (which I agree they should barring unanimous vote during the season or majority in the off-season).

 

It should also be noted that 2 of the arguments offered in favored of this rule were very clearly the result of just trying to come up with any rationale at all. The one about how, since O-linemen sometimes cover these and we don't start O-lineman could also be used to invalidate receiving TDs since they also sometime catch TD passes. And your bit about how the NFL only credits the player with the TD but not the yards gained advancing the ball, that FF should award them neither? I still don't understand why that makes any sense at all. Sure, don't go back and look at the game tape and give Gore credit for the 4 yards he ran. Makes perfect sense. But use the fact that the NFL only gives him credit for the 6 as a reason to not give him credit for the 6? Not sure I follow you there.

 

So, that basically leaves the bit about not wanting to reward players for what you find to be a fluky play (even though Brad Johnson was rewarded for both a passing and receiving TD years ago when he threw a pass, had it batted back to him, caught it, and he then ran it in. Even though it's a bit "fluky" when Andre Johnson draws a 45 yard PI call in the end-zone and Foster gets 3-4 shots from the 1 to get 6).

 

Do you truly believe that someone went through that thought process and consciously decided to exclude these. That, even faced with the reality that, had Gore been handed the ball, then dropped it, then picked it up, then ran it in, he'd get the 6. Had Garcon or Lloyd scored after picking up after their own mistake rather than someone else's they'd get the 6, they'd still consciously and specifically move to exclude this type of scoring, then sure, why not. This is "no different" than scoring systems that are the product of a very specific thought process born of intent to improve FF.

Edited December 19, 2012 by detlef

[stevegrab]

OK, scratch the word common. Make that good sense..and yes it's my opinion. Like I said, I'm embarrassed that BoTH leagues like the Huddle Ladder and JLA don't score fumble recovery TD's. I'm not really surprised at all by CBS Sportsline leagues.

 

 

Again, I'm not quite sure what your point is about CBS leagues, and them not using this. I would expect all league management software can cope with this rule. Does MFL (yahoo or others) turn this on by default, while CBS doesn't? (I'd presume when setting up scoring that ALL categories are turned off until you start turning them on.)

 

Either way, as you've found out in your own leagues and BC clarified, many leagues do not use that, at least on CBS where 95% of the leagues do not. Is that different on MFL, Yahoo, ESPN (do they even give you those numbers).

 

We now return this thread to the DOG vs detlef pissing match. Seriously guys, the only reason you're debating this is because in this one case (the fumble recovery TD not being scored) detlef has a problem with a league doing what they want, and cannot understand why you wouldn't count it. Considering the general consensus here (again echoed by BC) that there is not right or wrong in fantasy football league scoring setup, I'm not sure why this went on this long. My league will use the scoring we want, and your league can do what you want. One is no more wrong or right than the other. Leagues are not retarded, dumb, ignorant or lazy or anything else because of their scoring rules.

 

But don't let any of that stop you guys from your lengthy back and forth argument that has become silly. Whether a league consciously excluded these TDs or not doesn't matter. As my commissioner pointed out there are some 70 possible scoring categories for an offensive player. Have we gone through each and decided "nope not scoring that becauase....." No when we first started our leauge it was TD only, then we added bonuses for yardage. When we set it up on CBS we turned on the categories we needed, and left out the others.

 

You want to know the real problem with this scoring play, that the NFL and Elias feel the need to identify all of these as different scores (passing, rushing, receiving, off fumble recovery, def fumble recovery, kick/punt return). Instead of it just being a TD no matter what. Then I wouldn't have 8-10 TD scoring categories in CBS to decide from.

 

One more thing, why do fumble recovery TD count any more than the fumble recovery yards? This owner in our league kept arguing "offensive TD is offensive TD" and detlef was talking about how Gore picking up the ball is no different than him getting a handoff. So he ran for 9 yards on that play, why doesn't he get 9 rushing yards? Or why don't you score fumble recovery yardage the same as your rushing yards? He still ran those 9 yards, why shouldn't he get points? (Offensive yardage is offensive yardage, no?)

 

That points out the absurdity in the idea that everybody should score this because it is "a TD scored by an offensive player while on offense" or "no different than a rushing TD".

 

Again thanks for the opinions and comments, as often happens in these threads thow we've devolved into a debate of "what is the right way to do it" and the answer is there is no right way, each league has their own scoring rules, that are right for their league.

[delusions of grandeur]

 

 

One more thing, why do fumble recovery TD count any more than the fumble recovery yards? This owner in our league kept arguing "offensive TD is offensive TD" and detlef was talking about how Gore picking up the ball is no different than him getting a handoff. So he ran for 9 yards on that play, why doesn't he get 9 rushing yards? Or why don't you score fumble recovery yardage the same as your rushing yards? He still ran those 9 yards, why shouldn't he get points? (Offensive yardage is offensive yardage, no?)

 

That points out the absurdity in the idea that everybody should score this because it is "a TD scored by an offensive player while on offense" or "no different than a rushing TD".

 

 

This was exactly my point the entire thread. Sorry it had to go this far but...

 

Det, I am not saying anything about how the NFL scores it. What I'm saying is that if fantasy leagues don't give credit for the action (offensive fumble recovery), don't give credit for the yardage, then by extension they could decide that the TD isn't worthy enough to be scored either, since the action and yardage aren't worth being scored. Really if anything it'd be a contradiction to score the TD but not the action or yards, but I can see your logic of "all TDs are scored". I jsut wish you could see the logic (that no, I'm not jsut making up after the fact, I said this in post 6 before you even entered the thread).

 

But obviously we're not getting anywhere here, so there's no point in repeating myself when even stevegrab didn't even seem to get my point.

[detlef]

It must be so much easier to point out the flaws in my argument when you pretend I'm saying something other than what I'm saying.

 

I never said "it's no different than a running TD". I was disputing the notion that Gore just lucked into a play not intended for him. That, in fact, what he did was actually harder.

 

And, again, I think the rationale that, since he doesn't get the rushing yards, so he shouldn't get the TD just adds insult to injury. Because the NFL absolutely gives Gore credit for that TD. It says so right in the box score.

 

So, again, I have to point out that there's very much a difference between a rule that is born from a process intended to make something better and what you guys are doing, that being, circling back and trying to justify something already done. And Steve, you already admitted that there was no throught process for this in your league. It's just how it was because you didn't think to check a box. So you are very much just grasping for some theoretical justification. You've already admitted that your rule was not intentional.

 

The 4 pt passing TD didn't come about because someone just randomly decided to discount them and then said, "Um, well, see QBs accumulate them faster than WRs." No, he recognized that QBs throw them more and then addressed that with a scoring change.

[stevegrab]

This was exactly my point the entire thread. Sorry it had to go this far but...

 

Det, I am not saying anything about how the NFL scores it. What I'm saying is that if fantasy leagues don't give credit for the action (offensive fumble recovery), don't give credit for the yardage, then by extension they could decide that the TD isn't worthy enough to be scored either, since the action and yardage aren't worth being scored. Really if anything it'd be a contradiction to score the TD but not the action or yards, but I can see your logic of "all TDs are scored". I jsut wish you could see the logic (that no, I'm not jsut making up after the fact, I said this in post 6 before you even entered the thread).

 

But obviously we're not getting anywhere here, so there's no point in repeating myself when even stevegrab didn't even seem to get my point.

 

Its not that I didn't get your point its that I stopped paying attention to whatever point you and det were trying to make, the posts were extremely wrong and had gotten off topic. I know that happens a lot, and I'm guilty of it as well. I'm not lashing out, just got tired of the whole debate that some (including det) were making that they could not understand why all leagues don't score this. When I thought it was understood that how a league scores things is their own choice, not some absolute about what is right and wrong and some requirement that there be an acceptable explanation for people outside the league on why the scoring is that way.

 

I think I do understand your point, if it is is that a league could decide not to score the fumble recovery TD, since neither the action of recovering the fumble nor the yards they carried the ball (pretty much a running play but not defined that way by NFL) count, why count the TD. We never approached it like that, just considered it a TD outside the normal offense (pass/run/catch). Had somebody said "Hey here is what these are, and how they happen. Should we score that?" We may have just turned it on when setting up our league the first time. We don't score the defensive fumble recovery TD either, which some still consider an offensive action, even though there was a change in possession.

 

I understand and see the merits of "score all TDs", which basically means finding every TD category in your scoring rules and turning them on. So that when Deion Branch lines up as a DB, picks off the QB and returns it for a TD he gets the points for that. We'll probably go that way, and will also add some clarification to our constitution like "Any score (yardage, TD, etc) not specifically turned on in the league site scoring rules, will not be scored by the league. We recommend all owners look at the league scoring as well as the full list of scoring categories allowed so you are familiar with what does and does not count. These scoring rules will only be changed before the start of the season, and usually based on a vote of the owners to change the current scoring."

 

And honestly, I have no idea if these TDs were scored in the old days of using the paper, or other league management site (we used the precursor to MFL, Fantasy Football League Mananager [FFLM] before going to CBS).

[Big Country]

OK, scratch the word common. Make that good sense..and yes it's my opinion. Like I said, I'm embarrassed that BoTH leagues like the Huddle Ladder and JLA don't score fumble recovery TD's. I'm not really surprised at all by CBS Sportsline leagues.

 

 

And I can not say that, in my persoanl opinion on league setup preferences, that i disagree with anything you have here. I realize that the large bulk of CBS leagues are more recreational and likely just go with the default setting, while be their very nature, BOTH leagues are a bit more competitive and likely a bit more complicated in terms of scoring/setup.

 

 

You want to know the real problem with this scoring play, that the NFL and Elias feel the need to identify all of these as different scores (passing, rushing, receiving, off fumble recovery, def fumble recovery, kick/punt return). Instead of it just being a TD no matter what. Then I wouldn't have 8-10 TD scoring categories in CBS to decide from.

 

 

 

For no reason other than to stir the pot, etc., but I do believe that, at least on MFL, you can simply use a TD scoring category as a sort of catchall for player scoring, without having to select all of the individual options. But, I believe the catch is that you would have to score all TDs with the same value, so no 3/4 pts for passing TDs and 6 pts for the others without having to individually select the scoring categories. Again, been a while since I commished/setup a league on MFL, so not 100% positive on the current myriad of options.

[detlef]

steve, kindly quit pretending I'm saying something that I'm not. TIA

 

Once again, I'm not saying my way is the only way, just fighting the intellectual laziness that comes from "one thing is as good as the next" that some are putting forward.

 

Do you realize how few things would ever get accomplished if we kept falling back on that?

[detlef]

And I can not say that, in my persoanl opinion on league setup preferences, that i disagree with anything you have here. I realize that the large bulk of CBS leagues are more recreational and likely just go with the default setting, while be their very nature, BOTH leagues are a bit more competitive and likely a bit more complicated in terms of scoring/setup.

 

 

 

For no reason other than to stir the pot, etc., but I do believe that, at least on MFL, you can simply use a TD scoring category as a sort of catchall for player scoring, without having to select all of the individual options. But, I believe the catch is that you would have to score all TDs with the same value, so no 3/4 pts for passing TDs and 6 pts for the others without having to individually select the scoring categories. Again, been a while since I commished/setup a league on MFL, so not 100% positive on the current myriad of options.

 

I do believe MFL has the TD catch-all that is separate from passing TDs. So, I think you can have both.

[stevegrab]

It must be so much easier to point out the flaws in my argument when you pretend I'm saying something other than what I'm saying.

 

I never said "it's no different than a running TD". I was disputing the notion that Gore just lucked into a play not intended for him. That, in fact, what he did was actually harder.

 

And, again, I think the rationale that, since he doesn't get the rushing yards, so he shouldn't get the TD just adds insult to injury. Because the NFL absolutely gives Gore credit for that TD. It says so right in the box score.

 

So, again, I have to point out that there's very much a difference between a rule that is born from a process intended to make something better and what you guys are doing, that being, circling back and trying to justify something already done. And Steve, you already admitted that there was no throught process for this in your league. It's just how it was because you didn't think to check a box. So you are very much just grasping for some theoretical justification. You've already admitted that your rule was not intentional.

 

The 4 pt passing TD didn't come about because someone just randomly decided to discount them and then said, "Um, well, see QBs accumulate them faster than WRs." No, he recognized that QBs throw them more and then addressed that with a scoring change.

 

 

Correct we never said "we're not scoring these TDs because....", but basically they were not offensive actions. Heck I cannot even remember if this stat category was on CBS over 10 years ago when we joined. Maybe it was added later and we didn't turn it on.

 

The point is, nobody should have to give you (an outsider to their league) any justification or reason for why their scoring is the way it is. You seem to be saying "its just stupid not to score these TDs, every league should do it." I disagree as do many others. Keg the king of IDP has that no team defense view, and probably thinks all leagues should be IDP. But does he ask owners in non-IDP leagues for justification on why they don't do IDP.

 

In the end, no league should have to justify what they do to somebody else. As BC said in one post, it boilds down to "our league scores it this way because that is what we do." Besides that it is usually not what the discussion is about, I never asked for an opinion on if we should score OFRTD, but I certainly got an earful from a few members.

 

The only reason anybody is trying to justify why these TDs do not count, is because you keep asking for it.

[electricrelish]

Again, I'm not quite sure what your point is about CBS leagues, and them not using this. I would expect all league management software can cope with this rule. Does MFL (yahoo or others) turn this on by default, while CBS doesn't? (I'd presume when setting up scoring that ALL categories are turned off until you start turning them on.)

 

This comment was just another friendly jab at CBS Sportsline because I know how much you are their staunch supporter and defender here on the forums.

As my commissioner pointed out there are some 70 possible scoring categories for an offensive player. Have we gone through each and decided "nope not scoring that becauase....." No when we first started our leauge it was TD only, then we added bonuses for yardage. When we set it up on CBS we turned on the categories we needed, and left out the others.

 

Yes, that's true, but the subject of fumble recovery TD's was discussed, and no action was taken; therefore your league consciously decided that it was not worthy of being scored.

You want to know the real problem with this scoring play, that the NFL and Elias feel the need to identify all of these as different scores (passing, rushing, receiving, off fumble recovery, def fumble recovery, kick/punt return). Instead of it just being a TD no matter what. Then I wouldn't have 8-10 TD scoring categories in CBS to decide from.

 

I agree. A lot of these FF leagues make it difficult when first starting up a league. I think the reason that most leagues don't score fumble recovery TD's is because it's not on by default, so I think it should be on by default.

One more thing, why do fumble recovery TD count any more than the fumble recovery yards? This owner in our league kept arguing "offensive TD is offensive TD" and detlef was talking about how Gore picking up the ball is no different than him getting a handoff. So he ran for 9 yards on that play, why doesn't he get 9 rushing yards? Or why don't you score fumble recovery yardage the same as your rushing yards? He still ran those 9 yards, why shouldn't he get points? (Offensive yardage is offensive yardage, no?)

 

There are two different points of discussion here that I would like to respond to.

 

First, detlef wrote that he had not read any posted arguments as to why fumble recovery TD's should not be counted, but I think DoG did make a valid argument, which is if fumble recoveries in general are not rewarded, why should it make a difference if it is a TD. The more I think about it, I believe that fumble recoveries should be awarded in FF, especially if your league gives negative points for a fumble.

 

I am in leagues where a player loses 2 points if they fumble. If they recover their own fumble, they get nothing; however, I think that if they recover that fumble, they should get rewarded those same 2 points back. And if another offensive player recovers the fumble, then that player should get the points. If it's an offensive line guard that recovers and you don't play that position, then you don't get the points just like it is with all off FF.

 

Further justification is that most leagues reward fumble recovery points to defenses, so it makes sense that an offensive fumble recovery should be awarded as well.

 

Secondly, fumble recovery yardage is category that I had never consciously thought of. Now that this subject is being brought up, it's one that I think should be counted. For example, if Offensive Player A fumbles the ball and Offensive Player B recovers the fumble and runs an additional 50 yds, then those yards should be counted in FF. If Offensive Player A fumbles the ball, and recovers the fumble, and then runs for 50 yds, I think that they should also be awarded the yardage points.

That points out the absurdity in the idea that everybody should score this because it is "a TD scored by an offensive player while on offense" or "no different than a rushing TD".

 

Again thanks for the opinions and comments, as often happens in these threads thow we've devolved into a debate of "what is the right way to do it" and the answer is there is no right way, each league has their own scoring rules, that are right for their league.

 

I don't see the absurdity of it all. To me it's absurd to not score a TD that an offensive player made.

 

Sure, it's arrogant to say what I believe is right for you and for everyone. Still, I ask you and everyone, does it not feel like something is amiss when Frank Gore does not get rewarded in FF when he scores a TD that the NFL counts? Sure, we all agree if you weren't keeping score like that all year, then it's too late to change it now. I agree with that point, but shouldn't this Frank Gore instance in the 2012 FF playoffs be a message to everyone once and for all to make sure that the scoring rules are reconfigured for next year and beyond, so that it is rewarded?

 

Again, the argument is that if fumble recoveries are not scored then why should fumble recovery TD's be scored? My answer is that fumble recoveries, fumble recovery yardage and fumble recovery TD's should all be scored.

 

And what's the reason for so many back and forth responses? It's because it feels like a universal wrong has occurred to a fellow FF player, so one can't help but think that could have been me who was victimized by that scoring rule. If one FF player experiences injustice, then we all experience injustice. Thank you for reading. God Bless! And may all your days be circus days!

Edited December 19, 2012 by electricrelish

[Big Country]

In the end, no league should have to justify what they do to somebody else. As BC said in one post, it boilds down to "our league scores it this way because that is what we do." Besides that it is usually not what the discussion is about, I never asked for an opinion on if we should score OFRTD, but I certainly got an earful from a few members.

 

 

If nothing else, hopefully this situation pushes your league to review not just this, but all of the league settings to determine what setup the league would prefer.

 

I know I have had a few scenarios pop up this season in a new league where some settings that I thought were default were not, and as we had no consensus within the league we agreed to live with it this season and address in the offseason during rules review.

[stevegrab]

steve, kindly quit pretending I'm saying something that I'm not. TIA

 

Once again, I'm not saying my way is the only way, just fighting the intellectual laziness that comes from "one thing is as good as the next" that some are putting forward.

 

Do you realize how few things would ever get accomplished if we kept falling back on that?

 

 

Fighting the intellectual laziness in fantasy football? Funny I thought this was a game for fun, not some grand intellectual endeavor.

 

Keep up the good fight my friend. You seem to thrive on controversy and arguing just for arguments sake some time. As I said in my last post, I nor anybody in any other league should have to justify their scoring to you.

 

I apologize if I misunderstood, but your debate with DOG on this whole point led me to believe that is what you're asking for. Some reasons or justification for why a league doesn't score them. And short of an acceptable reason, you think its dump, silly, whatever that the aren't scored.