Howdyd2424 Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Three division teams have same overall record and same division record. League Rules state that the next tie breakers are head to head and then total points. Here's where there is a disagreement: Team A (1243 pts) beat Team B (1320 pts) twice Team B split 1-1 with Team C (1303 pts) Team C split with Team A Some think because Team A beat team B twice that they should get in due to a better overall record between these three teams, though this doesn't account for Team C having the tie breaker over Team A, Others think that because the head to head essentially created Team A trumping team B, Team B trumping team C, and Team C trumping Team A that Team B should get in with the most overall points. GOING BY LEAGUE RULES who should get in? Any input is appreciated Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkraft896 Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 (edited) By league rules, since you have head to head as the tiebreaker Team A should be in the playoffs. This is because they have the best record in games between the three tied teams. They essentially are all given new records. Team A went 3-1 (2-0 vs. B, 1-1 vs. C) Team B went 1-3 (0-2 vs. A, 1-1 vs. C) Team C went 2-2 (1-1 vs. A and B ) Edited December 8, 2015 by jkraft896 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkraft896 Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Total points would have only come into play if all the teams had the same record against each other. For example if Team A and B had also split they would all be 2-2 against each other. Then total points would be the tiebreaker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gilthorp Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 A C B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Head to head tie breakers are usually ignored for more than 2 teams, since there is no true H2H record. We used to have that as one of our tie breakers and tossed it out years ago because there was often this kind of confusion. We now use just overall record, then division record (if teams in same division) then points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 It really depends on how your rules are written. You don't have a clear H2H winner or H2H loser; i.e. 1 team did not SWEEP all the other teams and 1 team did not LOSE to all the other teams. If one team had swept the other 2 then he would be the clear H2H winner, if one team had been swept by the other 2 then you would have a clear H2H loser would could be eliminated. So if you rules require a clear H2H winner/loser, you don't have one. But if your rules state that the tie-breaker is the team with the best W-L percentage with all other teams in the tie then they are ranked A (3-1), C (2-2), B (1-3). Now is a horrible time to be defining tie-breaker rules. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bburdett Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Agree that you should look into changing your tie-breakers for next season, but going off the information you provided Team A should be in the playoffs. Then Team C, with Team B last. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Head to head tie breakers are usually ignored for more than 2 teams, since there is no true H2H record. We used to have that as one of our tie breakers and tossed it out years ago because there was often this kind of confusion. We now use just overall record, then division record (if teams in same division) then points. Just to be clear I am not advocating changing any rules or ignoring the H2H because I don't like it. But if it isn't clear what to do with 3 teams (when there is no direct H2H) whether a sweep is required, or winning percentage in games between those 3 teams etc. then moving to the next tie breaker could be the best way to go. But definitely address this in your rules for next year, if keeping H2H how does it get applied, especially with 3 or more teams, who may not have all played each other equally. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howdyd2424 Posted December 8, 2015 Author Share Posted December 8, 2015 I don't know who set it up this way but it'll definitely be changed for next year. Thanks for the info! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowboutthemCowboys Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Head to head tie breakers are usually ignored for more than 2 teams, since there is no true H2H record. this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BA Baracus Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 I one of my leagues with H2H tie breakers it says 'H2H record among all tied teams'. Applied to your league: Team A: 3-1 Team B: 1-3 Team C: 2-2 Standings order is: A, C, B. What is the exact verbiage in your bylaws? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scorcher Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 (edited) A C B This-you stated in your OP that some people think this or that:it doesn't matter what some people think; what matters are the rules you have in play for this year. Based on your rules Team A is the winner and it's not even up for debate.. According to your rules it is very clear that A is the winner and it shouldn't even be a question. Edited December 9, 2015 by Scorcher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Do what I did a couple years ago, assign all teams a side of a dreydl and spin. Have fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 This-you stated in your OP that some people think this or that:it doesn't matter what some people think; what matters are the rules you have in play for this year. Based on your rules Team A is the winner and it's not even up for debate.. According to your rules it is very clear that A is the winner and it shouldn't even be a question. Very clear? No team has a clear H2H record over all other teams. You can't just ASSUME that the rules MEANT the best H2H win percentage. That's not how rules work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkraft896 Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Very clear? No team has a clear H2H record over all other teams. You can't just ASSUME that the rules MEANT the best H2H win percentage. That's not how rules work. Depending on where you are playing, I know that this is how ESPN defines H2H between more than 2 teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Depending on where you are playing, I know that this is how ESPN defines H2H between more than 2 teams. How the website defines it may not be in line with the rules of the league and what the owners expect to happen. Of course those running the leauge need to know what the rules really should be and if possible setup their league to work that way. I think what some of us are saying is that H2H poses some strange issues that are really best left out of determining playoffs. Since their wording is not very clear, it leaves it open to interpretation. Does H2H really apply to more than 2 teams (did you expect to have 3 teams tied with overall and division record), and if so is it winning percentage? Or does one team need to have had a superior record over the other two? Or does H2H not apply to more than 2 teams, since it doesn't fit the proper definition (H2H implies 2 team)? In which case you'd proceed to total points. I can see both arguments, and barring some better wording both may be acceptable, but the winning percentage in those common games is probably more closely following the rules, thus having team A be the winner. All 3 teams really have some claim to be the best A - best record (3-1) in common games B - highest total points (but worst record) C - split 1-1 with A and had more points then them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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