CowboysDiehard Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 Nice post Dcat...for once a wall of text that's not a 'TLDR' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Def. Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 (edited) No matter how its framed, I don't see how the Jimmy trade is going to be considered anything but a mistake. Not that the Patriots have them often, but in this case it does appear so. Reports were in the offseason that Patriots would not talk about trading Jimmy and wanted to sign him to a bridge contract. Yet here we all were thinking that no way was he ever going to sign a bridge contract, that he wanted to start and showed he could during Tom's suspension. So in the end they hold on to him just to trade him for a refund. When they realistically and reportedly could of gotten more for him in the offseason from QB needy teams like Chicago, San Francisco, and Cleveland. That at best, smells of desperation. So in the end the results are: - Jimmy flops and the Patriots could of gotten more for trading him in the 2017 offseason or - Jimmy succeeds and the Patriots missed out on a successor for Brady But hey, at least they got that 2.9 or 2.10. Edited January 5, 2018 by Def. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patriots Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 I could see this happening. Maybe Brady thinks that if Grappalo replaced him in one or two years and the patriot machine kept chugging along then his legacy could take a hit? Not really sure but should be an interesting off season. Does Bill leave the pats this year? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gourdeau Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 I know a lot of people hate and don't buy Colin Cowherd, I've been watching him a long time.. hes one of the biggest pats homers and rides bradys hard on like no other. What he has to say about this is so fascinating to me. If you get a chance to.watch the first hour of his show, its quite interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 Not sure if posted here yet, a very in depth and long article on all of this from ESPN (Seth WIckersham, not familiar with him) http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/page/hotread180105/beginning-end-new-england-patriots-robert-kraft-tom-brady-bill-belichick-internal-power-struggle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CowboysDiehard Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 4 minutes ago, stevegrab said: Not sure if posted here yet, a very in depth and long article on all of this from ESPN (Seth WIckersham, not familiar with him) http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/page/hotread180105/beginning-end-new-england-patriots-robert-kraft-tom-brady-bill-belichick-internal-power-struggle Dcat posted the text above... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 11 minutes ago, CowboysDiehard said: Dcat posted the text above... Yep see that now, hadn't gotten that far when I posted but kept seeing discussion of what seemed to be related but no mention of the article, the opening psot with a tweet didn't appear to have much content. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forever in debt to mo lewis Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Def. said: No matter how its framed, I don't see how the Jimmy trade is going to be considered anything but a mistake. Not that the Patriots have them often, but in this case it does appear so. Reports were in the offseason that Patriots would not talk about trading Jimmy and wanted to sign him to a bridge contract. Yet here we all were thinking that no way was he ever going to sign a bridge contract, that he wanted to start and showed he could during Tom's suspension. So in the end they hold on to him just to trade him for a refund. When they realistically and reportedly could of gotten more for him in the offseason from QB needy teams like Chicago, San Francisco, and Cleveland. That at best, smells of desperation. So in the end the results are: - Jimmy flops and the Patriots could of gotten more for trading him in the 2017 offseason or - Jimmy succeeds and the Patriots missed out on a successor for Brady But hey, at least they got that 2.9 or 2.10. eh there are other results -brady wins another superbowl or 2 and jimmy never does -jimmy succeeds and the patriots find another suitable successor we also have to define "succeeds" for jimmy.......and one cannot assume that because brady is able to lead to a title that jimmy automatically could maybe they could have gotten more in the offseason....but they kept that insurance policy for half of this year and with the chance that maybe they could convince him at some point to sign im not all "rose colored glasses pats can do no wrong"......but I think a lot of outsiders are looking at it from an "outsider" perspective.......perhaps belichick was willing to hold till the last minute in the event he could change jimmys m ind or brady got hurt....y ou realize brady has been listed with an "Achilles" injury a few times and has missed some practices right?...its still a decent return on the investment....and are you assuming belichick knew that jimmy was gonna reel off, what was it, 5 wins a row? and send the pick down a number of spots? Edited January 5, 2018 by forever in debt to mo lewis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdko Posted January 5, 2018 Author Share Posted January 5, 2018 37 minutes ago, forever in debt to mo lewis said: eh there are other results -brady wins another superbowl or 2 and jimmy never does -jimmy succeeds and the patriots find another suitable successor we also have to define "succeeds" for jimmy.......and one cannot assume that because brady is able to lead to a title that jimmy automatically could maybe they could have gotten more in the offseason....but they kept that insurance policy for half of this year and with the chance that maybe they could convince him at some point to sign Jimmy has already succeeded. He won every game he started in place of Brady, and has won every single game that he's been with the 49ers, a far worse franchise with less offensive talent. The dude's a winner. Do you think he would have done worse that Brady this year leading the Pats? From the sample size I've seen, I think he would have brought the Pats to the playoffs as well. I wonder if Belichick had some conversations with Jimmy G about starting him in the upcoming season, etc etc. some backdoor talks and promises that sullied the relationship between them and Brady and the ownership. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gourdeau Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 1 hour ago, stevegrab said: Not sure if posted here yet, a very in depth and long article on all of this from ESPN (Seth WIckersham, not familiar with him) http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/page/hotread180105/beginning-end-new-england-patriots-robert-kraft-tom-brady-bill-belichick-internal-power-struggle He also broke the Harbaugh 9ers riff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caveman_Nick Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 28 minutes ago, kdko said: Jimmy has already succeeded. He won every game he started in place of Brady, and has won every single game that he's been with the 49ers, a far worse franchise with less offensive talent. The dude's a winner. Do you think he would have done worse that Brady this year leading the Pats? From the sample size I've seen, I think he would have brought the Pats to the playoffs as well. I wonder if Belichick had some conversations with Jimmy G about starting him in the upcoming season, etc etc. some backdoor talks and promises that sullied the relationship between them and Brady and the ownership. IIRC, he played 6 quarters and broke his collar bone starting for NE. Yes, the team won those two games. They were very good quarters, for sure, but can you really say that he ‘had already succeeded’ at the time of the trade? He’s looked great. I wish the team could have kept him. But the guy is just starting out. I have always liked the 49er franchise, and it would be nice to see this work out for both sides. Next year will be interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTSuper7 Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 7 hours ago, michaelredd9 said: If Jimmy turns out to be the next Matt Ryan or Matt Stafford, then it'll look like the right move as long as Brady keeps playing at his current high level for a couple more years. But if Jimmy turns out to be a truly elite quarterback, it'll end up looking like a foolish move. Just think if the Packers had traded Aaron Rodgers for a second round pick to keep Favre for his last few years (2 of which were still really good years). Or if San Francisco had traded Steve Young to keep Joe Montana for those last two years. This was one of my thoughts. Keeping Brady in the twilight of his career is really dangerous. They have nobody lined up now to take the torch. Perhaps they think their guy of the future is in the upcoming draft. But you just never know with a drafted player... I actually think it would have been more Patriot-esque for them to keep Garoppolo and trade (if allowable in his contract) Brady to a team that might only be a QB away (Jacksonville?) or outright release him after this season. The Patriots have shown time and time again that nobody is sacred / untradeable. I guess maybe Brady is the only guy exempt from that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTSuper7 Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 I will also add that a second rounder for a potential franchise QB is highway robbery. NE usually takes other teams to the cleaners on deals like this. It's weird. Obviously, we don't know what Garoppolo is going to do in his career, but it sounds like Belichick really thought Garoppolo was the future of the Patriots at QB. So to trade him for a 2nd rounder? Doesn't smell right, and doesn't make sense to leave your team with no fallback options behind a 40 year old QB, even if he is the GOAT and playing at a high enough level to win. That cliff isn't far away, and sooner or later, everyone falls off of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Def. Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 2 hours ago, forever in debt to mo lewis said: eh there are other results -brady wins another superbowl or 2 and jimmy never does -jimmy succeeds and the patriots find another suitable successor we also have to define "succeeds" for jimmy.......and one cannot assume that because brady is able to lead to a title that jimmy automatically could maybe they could have gotten more in the offseason....but they kept that insurance policy for half of this year and with the chance that maybe they could convince him at some point to sign im not all "rose colored glasses pats can do no wrong"......but I think a lot of outsiders are looking at it from an "outsider" perspective.......perhaps belichick was willing to hold till the last minute in the event he could change jimmys m ind or brady got hurt....y ou realize brady has been listed with an "Achilles" injury a few times and has missed some practices right?...its still a decent return on the investment....and are you assuming belichick knew that jimmy was gonna reel off, what was it, 5 wins a row? and send the pick down a number of spots? That Pats didn't sell Jimmy at his peak value and didn't retain him if he truly does turn out to be the next coming. Lose/Lose either way you want to try and frame it. Again, rare mistake for the Pats but definitely a mistake none the less in my view. Don't think being an "outsider" makes it any more or less black and white. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 42 minutes ago, MTSuper7 said: This was one of my thoughts. Keeping Brady in the twilight of his career is really dangerous. They have nobody lined up now to take the torch. Perhaps they think their guy of the future is in the upcoming draft. But you just never know with a drafted player... I actually think it would have been more Patriot-esque for them to keep Garoppolo and trade (if allowable in his contract) Brady to a team that might only be a QB away (Jacksonville?) or outright release him after this season. The Patriots have shown time and time again that nobody is sacred / untradeable. I guess maybe Brady is the only guy exempt from that... Exactly, for a multitude of reasons, he's been there through this whole run of success, and is a fan favorite and is as much of a part of their success as Bill. Pushing him aside while still playing good, after a big comeback win in the last SB (unknown playoff results this year), would have been seen as a massive risk and angered fans. Especially if all we still had on Garapalo was his 6 quarters last year, and BB's belief that he is a franchise QB. I do agree that a single 2nd round pick (even one in the top 5 as SF was likely to be) isn't much for a possible franchise QB. Browns supposedly were offering more, going back to the offseason, and offered more in the failed McCarron trade (though its hard to say what really went down there). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forever in debt to mo lewis Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 1 hour ago, kdko said: Jimmy has already succeeded. He won every game he started in place of Brady, and has won every single game that he's been with the 49ers, a far worse franchise with less offensive talent. The dude's a winner. Do you think he would have done worse that Brady this year leading the Pats? From the sample size I've seen, I think he would have brought the Pats to the playoffs as well. I wonder if Belichick had some conversations with Jimmy G about starting him in the upcoming season, etc etc. some backdoor talks and promises that sullied the relationship between them and Brady and the ownership. lol@ the notion that hes already "succeeded"......matt cassell succeeded till he didnt.....the first 3 games jimmy won his defense held the other teams to 14-16-23 points....these were the bears, texans and tenn......the jaguars game was impressive....what were the rams playing for? in 3 of those games he went up against trubisky, yates and mannion....hardly a-rod, brees and brady huh?... i like jimmy and think he will do well...some of you have him pegged for the HOF already i understand that basically everyone in the world, who isnt a patriots fan, is praying for their downfall .....but you are assuming that wickershams sources are rock solid and that all is true.....i personally dont buy it......do a search on a local guy named john tomase.....there are no reprecussions for wickersham if hes wrong or completely off....tomase committed one of the worst cases of misreporting and still has a strong career in the same town he basically smeared..... if what wickerhsam has implied, and belichick returns to coach the patriots next year, what are the reprecussions going to be for him? is espn going to can him? will he be questioned in front of a judge and jury? or have to testify on CSPAN?....reporting must be one of the best gigs....cant site sources cause that would implicate someone...and then there are no reprecussions......wickersham just keeps saying "i felt comfortable reporting this".....sounds kind of like tomase when he made his public apology.... ill fully buy this story when belichick steps at the end of the patriots season and takes a job elsewhere or retires people in the local media are already poking holes in wickerhams story....saying that jimmy had his own passkey for the tb12 center...when wickersham implies he was shunned away and then later says "ultimately he did receiver treatment" as far as jimmy...i think good things are in store for him.....how far he takes it? that is still debatable....but i think bradys legacy is worth sending him off to the NFC(only possible time he can really hurt you) and getting a return on the investment Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forever in debt to mo lewis Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 3 minutes ago, Def. said: That Pats didn't sell Jimmy at his peak value and didn't retain him if he truly does turn out to be the next coming. Lose/Lose either way you want to try and frame it. Again, rare mistake for the Pats but definitely a mistake none the less in my view. Don't think being an "outsider" makes it any more or less black and white. sure man...lose/ lose all the way...cept the pats are amongst the favorites to win the title again...and won 13 regular season games and #1 seed.....not a heck of alot of losing going on around there and im fairly certain theyll be in about the same shape next year......lose/lose tho! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdko Posted January 5, 2018 Author Share Posted January 5, 2018 2 minutes ago, forever in debt to mo lewis said: lol@ the notion that hes already "succeeded"......matt cassell succeeded till he didnt.....the first 3 games jimmy won his defense held the other teams to 14-16-23 points....these were the bears, texans and tenn......the jaguars game was impressive....what were the rams playing for? in 3 of those games he went up against trubisky, yates and mannion....hardly a-rod, brees and brady huh?... i like jimmy and think he will do well...some of you have him pegged for the HOF already i understand that basically everyone in the world, who isnt a patriots fan, is praying for their downfall .....but you are assuming that wickershams sources are rock solid and that all is true.....i personally dont buy it......do a search on a local guy named john tomase.....there are no reprecussions for wickersham if hes wrong or completely off....tomase committed one of the worst cases of misreporting and still has a strong career in the same town he basically smeared..... if what wickerhsam has implied, and belichick returns to coach the patriots next year, what are the reprecussions going to be for him? is espn going to can him? will he be questioned in front of a judge and jury? or have to testify on CSPAN?....reporting must be one of the best gigs....cant site sources cause that would implicate someone...and then there are no reprecussions......wickersham just keeps saying "i felt comfortable reporting this".....sounds kind of like tomase when he made his public apology.... ill fully buy this story when belichick steps at the end of the patriots season and takes a job elsewhere or retires people in the local media are already poking holes in wickerhams story....saying that jimmy had his own passkey for the tb12 center...when wickersham implies he was shunned away and then later says "ultimately he did receiver treatment" as far as jimmy...i think good things are in store for him.....how far he takes it? that is still debatable....but i think bradys legacy is worth sending him off to the NFC(only possible time he can really hurt you) and getting a return on the investment He has succeeded. If I was a 49'ers fan i'd have stars in my eyes right now. lol @ the notion that the Patriots got a return on that investment. Years of priming and prepping your future QB only to ship him off a 2nd round pick. Like someone else has said, where do the Patriots go from here? You'd better hope Brady can play well for several more years, you guys have no other options now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Def. Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 1 minute ago, forever in debt to mo lewis said: sure man...lose/ lose all the way...cept the pats are amongst the favorites to win the title again...and won 13 regular season games and #1 seed.....not a heck of alot of losing going on around there and im fairly certain theyll be in about the same shape next year......lose/lose tho! Sigh...You know it is possible to talk about one specific situation and show they made a mistake. Didn't say nor imply that it was going to doom the franchise. Guess this is you not wearing those rose colored glasses right? Was it absolutely the right move to hold on to someone even yourself admitted didn't think would sign a bridge deal only to get a refund? All while trading away your other "insurance policy" in September when it should be abundantly clear that you could not retain Jimmy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdko Posted January 5, 2018 Author Share Posted January 5, 2018 1 hour ago, Caveman_Nick said: IIRC, he played 6 quarters and broke his collar bone starting for NE. Yes, the team won those two games. They were very good quarters, for sure, but can you really say that he ‘had already succeeded’ at the time of the trade? He’s looked great. I wish the team could have kept him. But the guy is just starting out. I have always liked the 49er franchise, and it would be nice to see this work out for both sides. Next year will be interesting. Ahhh I'm tripping then, I thought he won 3 games for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caveman_Nick Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 Brissett won the other, going 1-1 as a starter, and finishing uo the other win for JimmyG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forever in debt to mo lewis Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 16 minutes ago, kdko said: He has succeeded. If I was a 49'ers fan i'd have stars in my eyes right now. lol @ the notion that the Patriots got a return on that investment. Years of priming and prepping your future QB only to ship him off a 2nd round pick. Like someone else has said, where do the Patriots go from here? You'd better hope Brady can play well for several more years, you guys have no other options now. if I was a 9ers fan id have stars in my eyes too...i can freely admit that...does that mean jimmy has succeeded? absolutely not...he hasnt done anything....are you ready to bet your life he wins 1 MVP award? im not the patriots did get a return on the investment....you call it priming and prepping your future qb.....others might call it hedging a bet or prepping in the event of disaster......the policy has expired...... if the patriots held onto him they would have to clear 10 mil just to franchise him....now whats that figure? now what team wants to pay for jimmy g at that pricetag with no real idea of what he will do for them....you guys are getting the 5 game look at him with SF then equating to getting that to all the possible situations ie pats trading him before season and after Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forever in debt to mo lewis Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 15 minutes ago, Def. said: Sigh...You know it is possible to talk about one specific situation and show they made a mistake. Didn't say nor imply that it was going to doom the franchise. Guess this is you not wearing those rose colored glasses right? Was it absolutely the right move to hold on to someone even yourself admitted didn't think would sign a bridge deal only to get a refund? All while trading away your other "insurance policy" in September when it should be abundantly clear that you could not retain Jimmy? ur basing a "mistake" on a 5 game end to a what was a 1 win season...its impressive.....but its hardly the clearest indicator jimmy is a 10 year star and MVP winner in this league.... implying the patriots made a mistake also implies doom for the franchise in this situation...it absolutely does Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caveman_Nick Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 mo, i have to agree with the consensus that they undersold him. It’s really hard to argue. I can maybe justify why they did it, considering the stack of circumstances, but it’s hard to say that he isn’t at least as good of a QB prospect as anyone coming out right now. the only real justification for what happened was that the team did not think they could get something better done after he was FT’d, and they knew in this situation they would cover backup QB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesplante11 Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 20 minutes ago, forever in debt to mo lewis said: sure man...lose/ lose all the way...cept the pats are amongst the favorites to win the title again...and won 13 regular season games and #1 seed.....not a heck of alot of losing going on around there and im fairly certain theyll be in about the same shape next year......lose/lose tho! Or Next season could look like this.... -Bill waits for McDaniels and Patricia to take HC jobs and the retires or leaves -Brady realizes hes in over his head and hangs it up -Edleman doesn't come back full form -Gronk gets hurt again Then Kraft gets to stand there with his d**k in his hand with no QB to speak of because he let the ego of his lottery ticket get in the way of continuing a dynasty after the NN/Brady Era. Here's a few stories Wickersham broke that everyone thought were ridiculous - Tension in the Seattle locker room among the team (esp Sherman) - Tension between NE and Guerrero - Jerry Jones having an issue with Goodell - An article about Belichick wanting to turn the team over to Jimmy G on 11/7 - Harbaugh having an issue in SF 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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