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Congratulations Brees!

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2 minutes ago, rebdog said:

he's a great QB.  good leader.  no question.   not sure what his physical attributes or lack thereof has to do with anything.   Lebron James is has ridiculous physical advantages but he plays on the same exact court as all players do.  

 

not looking to get on Brees.  he's one of the best.  just wouldn't be in my top 10 or probably 20 all-time just taking everything into account.   

Not even top 20? Ok, so what are you taking into account? What makes you knock Brees down when comparing to other QBs?

 

Back to my last post, how about this? I'll take a number of contemporary outdoor QBs, Brady, Favre and Rodgers and come up with an average home field advantage for the three of them (I won't even factor in Favre's dome seasons), then I'll figure out Brees' home field advantage, subtract the difference and then subtract that amount from every home game Brees had with New Orleans. 

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23 hours ago, blaw23 said:

As a Dolphin fan this just hurts. He should have been a Dolphin instead of a Saint.  He certainly would not have put up the numbers in Miami that he has in New Orleans and most likely have not become the first ballet Hall of Famer he is but he certainly would have been miles better than Daunte Culpepper and everything else they have trotted out there since, including Tannehill.

 

Congrats to Brees on a great accomplishment and becoming one of the greats!

 

I don't feel bad about this as a Dolphin fan at all.  Brees was coming off a very concerning shoulder injury coupled with up and down play in San Diego and his inherit small stature.  There was just a lot of risk so I don't fault the team for not signing him.  Can only fault them for the stupid trade for Culpepper which also had a lot of risk due to the knee injury and that's why it looks so bad.  But the NFL is one massive 'could of drafted or signed *insert name here*' sport.  It's just not worth going through all the 20/20 hindsight scenarios. 

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3 hours ago, rebdog said:

he's a great QB.  good leader.  no question.   not sure what his physical attributes or lack thereof has to do with anything.   Lebron James is has ridiculous physical advantages but he plays on the same exact court as all players do.  

 

not looking to get on Brees.  he's one of the best.  just wouldn't be in my top 10 or probably 20 all-time just taking everything into account.   

 

:lol: You're koo-koo.

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6 hours ago, rajncajn said:

I've heard this argument time and time again. It's always something, gets to play in a dome, plays in a QB friendly era, plays in a QB friendly system, has Payton for a coach, blah, blah, blah. 

Why is it that Brees is the only QB that gets the asterisks thrown in when talking about his accomplishments? Did Manning not play in a dome for most of his career and have Marvin Harrison and Edge to throw to? Has Brady not had probably the greatest coach of all time and mostly great defenses, Randy Moss, Wes Welker? Aaron Rodgers has played in the same era, has he not? Randall Cobb, Greg Jennings, Donald Driver, Jordy Nelson? If you're going to throw out the positives, how about factor in the negatives as well? First off the fact that he's done it despite not being the prototypical build for a QB? Brees is 6' tall with platform shoes on. He often can't even see the player he is throwing to. Yet he's one of the most accurate QBs in league history. Brees also never had the huge arm strength of a Brady or Favre. And speaking of arm strength, how do you come back from a fully dislocated throwing shoulder, a 360-degree tear of his labrum and a 50-percent tear of his rotator cuff? Hard work, dedication, determination. That's why Brees has broken just about every single record there is for a QB, not because of anything else. Are his stats a little higher playing in a dome? Yeah, I'll give you that, but to shrug off his accomplishments because he didn't play where these other guys did and ignore what advantages they have is ridiculous.

 

So here you go, I'll play this game. I'll compile all of Brees' stats for every single game he's ever played and come up with a figure that we can agree is fair of what advantage Brees had playing in a dome. Then I'll take that figure and subtract it from each home game he's had for the Saints and see where he's at by comparison and how much longer he would have to play in order to accomplish what he already has in reality. Maybe then we can stop hearing this fair weather QB nonsense  Anybody want to chime in on a good way to quantify that figure is more than welcome. I'd like it to show as little bias as I possibly can. 

Amen Rajn he seems to never get his due. Guys a stud period end of story

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i was wearing my Brees jersey ...it's blue but hey, was sad to see him go and have always been a fan

 

its pretty simple for me....the QB is supposed to be a leader, throw the ball, score and win games --  there aren't many who have put it all together and done it better....ever.

 

well done Brees

 

 

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Here is what I've got so far:

 

Brees' home field advantage per game in the Superdome is as follows:

 

Completion%  -2.97%

Yds  -3.79

TDs  -.59

INTs  .09

Pass rating  -11.07

 

I took the average of the following outdoor QBs and came up with a home field dome advantage vs home field outdoor.

 

Brady

.11% | 8.28 | .05 | .27 | -1.46

Favre

-.45% | 5.84 | -.14 | -.13 | -.5

Rodgers

-2.72% | -8.7 | -.4 | .15 | -10.6

Roethlisberger

-.9% | -17.93 | -.52 | .15 | -8.81

Elway

-2.84% | -25.52 | -.45 | .06 | -9.35

Marino

-1.66% | -21.56 | -.24 | -.2 | -4.27

 

Brees numbers - Average

-1.56% | 6.14 | -.3 | 0 | -4.49

 

Already, this whole exercise is a waste. Take a look at Rodgers and Elway, their home field advantage numbers are almost identical to Brees'. And before you say that's because they were better QBs, Brady's numbers are actually worse at home and Favre not much better. As it stands now the average would only add to Brees' yardage totals by about 6 yds per game and not increase his interception rate at all. 

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I'd like to add before moving on and making a decision on how to "fairly" reduce Brees' numbers to negate any dome advantage inflating his stats. The comment was made that Brees is a fair weather QB. In all honesty, how many games are actually played in "foul weather" during a season? Maybe a handful at best?

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There’s no reason for anyone to reduce Brees.  He’s an all-time great.  If someone can’t see that with their eyes, they are hopeless.  At 39 he looks as sharp as ever.  It will be fun to see how he and Brady finish up.  Imo, the career records for passing yards and TDs will come down to who plays longer, not talent.  Yards may not even come into play if Brady plays one more than Brees.

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1 hour ago, Caveman_Nick said:

There’s no reason for anyone to reduce Brees.  He’s an all-time great.  If someone can’t see that with their eyes, they are hopeless.  At 39 he looks as sharp as ever.  It will be fun to see how he and Brady finish up.  Imo, the career records for passing yards and TDs will come down to who plays longer, not talent.  Yards may not even come into play if Brady plays one more than Brees.

 

 

Well said. I don't spend a lot of time or effort on ranking all time greats in sports, because comparing eras is very difficult. There is no doubt that players today are putting up gaudy stats compared to guys who retired just a few years ago, and the QBs who started playing in the last 20 years have easily outpaced the greats that came before them. 


Brees is an elite QB, now and in history. Is that top 10 or 20, doesn't matter to me. 

 

rajn,

Don't waste your time justifying it, most agree, and those that don't are not often swayed by facts. 

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1 hour ago, stevegrab said:

rajn,

Don't waste your time justifying it, most agree, and those that don't are not often swayed by facts. 

I know, but it's an exercise I always wanted to take on anyway. BTW, of the QBs I compared Brees to, guess how the players ranked in completion percentage in outdoor games?

 

Rodgers 65.18%

Brees 64.77%

Roethlisberger 64.10%

Brady 63.54%

Favre 61.94%

Marino 59.51%

Elway 56.99%

 

Brees while with the Saints 66.73%

 

Edited by rajncajn

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Passer ratings outdoors:

Rodgers 103.64

Brady 96.76

Roethlisberger 94.22

Brees 89.82 (Saints 93.73)

Favre 87.64

Marino 87.20

Elway 80.84

 

Yds per game outdoors

Rodgers 269.33

Brady 261.15

Roethlisberger 257.34

Marino 256.94

Brees 253.71 (Saints 290.14)

Favre 237.25

Elway 223.68

 

Look at all those fair weather QBs who Brees consistently outperforms playing outdoors. 290 yds per game. That's just ridiculous. :lol: Brees ranks 4th in least interceptions both with and without the Saints and 6th in TDs overall and 3rd in TDs with the Saints behind Rodgers and Brady. 

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Since you want to do this exercise....

 

Where do those guys play their outdoor games compared to Brees?  NO plays TB and CAR on the road every year, Brady has to play in BUF/NY every year, Rodgers in CHI, Ben CIN/PIT/BAL/CLE.   Maybe you should look at stats in the cold, or snow, or rain. (I think you can do some of that on Pro Football Reference)  ;) 

 

 

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14 hours ago, stevegrab said:

Since you want to do this exercise....

 

Where do those guys play their outdoor games compared to Brees?  NO plays TB and CAR on the road every year, Brady has to play in BUF/NY every year, Rodgers in CHI, Ben CIN/PIT/BAL/CLE.   Maybe you should look at stats in the cold, or snow, or rain. (I think you can do some of that on Pro Football Reference)  ;) 

 

 

Yeah rajncajn, and while you're at it, can can you compare it to the younger talented QBs (i.e. Wentz, Mahomes, Watson)? I would like to know who has the best chance of being an all time great so I can draft my team appropriately for the next 10 years. ;)

 

 

BTW....J/K

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Every time people discuss who is the best quarterback ever, they assume that all of the best quarterbacks have played since 1980 because of quarterback statistic inflation.  Bart Starr never had more than 16 touchdowns but he was great.  Otto Graham never threw for 3,000 yards but he was great.  If Drew Brees is the 4th best quarterback of his generation behind Brady, Manning, and Rodgers, then it stands to reason that Brees is probably about the 10th or 20th best quarterback ever.  Personally, I don't believe that Brees is necessarily the 4th best quarterback of his generation.  I think I'd put Manning first and a three-way tie between Brady, Rodgers, and Brees.  And trying to compare them to the great quarterbacks of the past is an exercise in futility.

 

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Manning took a dump in his uniform in way too many big games to be considered the best ever or even the best of this group.  All time great, yes.  Best of those 4?  Nah.  I put him third, if I am ranking.  Brady, Brees, Manning, Rogers.

I will get accused of homer glasses, fine, but IMO when you look at team success both playoffs and regular season, passing numbers, longevity, and accolades, noting that none of those players other than Manning ever had any sustained time with terrific skill players, Brady is far and away the top of that group.

Brees has done more with less in less time than Manning, ans has enjoyed similar overall success.

Rogers...well...keep trying to stay healthy.  The game is more fun when you are in it, but you keep getting knocked out.

Edited by Caveman_Nick
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15 hours ago, Caveman_Nick said:

Manning took a dump in his uniform in way too many big games to be considered the best ever or even the best of this group.  All time great, yes.  Best of those 4?  Nah.  I put him third, if I am ranking.  Brady, Brees, Manning, Rogers.

I will get accused of homer glasses, fine, but IMO when you look at team success both playoffs and regular season, passing numbers, longevity, and accolades, noting that none of those players other than Manning ever had any sustained time with terrific skill players, Brady is far and away the top of that group.

Brees has done more with less in less time than Manning, ans has enjoyed similar overall success.

Rogers...well...keep trying to stay healthy.  The game is more fun when you are in it, but you keep getting knocked out.

 

Manning the only one with sustained time with terrific players? Manning also never had the defense or coaching that Brady did. Brees also had superior and consistent coaching. Rodgers has had some pretty terrific talent too.

 

Sorry sounds like your bias has you discounting Mannning.

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Manning played with Harrison, Wayne and Clark for years, and had a top notch offensive line.  Let’s not forget the security blanket of edgerrin james.

 

none of the other QBs had that level of talent around them for the number of years Manning did.

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Who was Marvin Harrison before Manning, and who were Dallas Clark and Reggie Wayne After Manning ?? Here are the links. Lets also look at what the entire colts and broncos franchises have become since manning left both those squads ? ..  On the flip side, how did New England do when Brady was hurt and suspended ? 11-5 and 3-1 .. You also neglect to mention the security blanket of Corey Dillon for 3 years, and bahemeth TE Combo in Hernandez and Gronk for another 3 seasons and one of the greatest if not the greatest WR in history for another 3 seasons, so I'm not sure why the other guys are the only ones who have had sustained talent, again not to mention the incredible defenses that Tom benefited from.  Finally,If I'm starting a franchise, I take Belichick over ANY of those supporting talents all day everyday and definitely twice on Sundays..

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HarrMa00.htm

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WaynRe00.htm

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/ClarDa00.htm

Edited by Gourdeau
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I’m not saying the other players never had any talent around them.  I am saying none of them had as much for as long as Manning.  I’m not even counting talented guys that didn’t stick very long like Austin Collie or Pierre Garcon, and I didn’t mention his always-on security slot receiver Brandon Stokley.

 

Maybe his offensive line was only amazing because of the illegal hearing aids, but we won’t talk about that :lol:

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On 10/12/2018 at 10:31 AM, michaelredd9 said:

Every time people discuss who is the best quarterback ever, they assume that all of the best quarterbacks have played since 1980 because of quarterback statistic inflation.  Bart Starr never had more than 16 touchdowns but he was great.  Otto Graham never threw for 3,000 yards but he was great.  If Drew Brees is the 4th best quarterback of his generation behind Brady, Manning, and Rodgers, then it stands to reason that Brees is probably about the 10th or 20th best quarterback ever.  Personally, I don't believe that Brees is necessarily the 4th best quarterback of his generation.  I think I'd put Manning first and a three-way tie between Brady, Rodgers, and Brees.  And trying to compare them to the great quarterbacks of the past is an exercise in futility.

 

:clap:this is where i was coming from  

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