Vikings Offense

[League_Champion]

Theilen is pissed. Is this directed at the moron coach, the stiff QB or both? 

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001060706/article/adam-thielen-on-offense-you-have-to-be-able-to-throw

[1fastdoc]

The offensive line did Cousins no favors and he seems to fall apart under pressure.

[purplemonster]

I can't say exactly who he is pissed at, probably multiple people.  Cousins for sure because Cousins plays scared and generally wilts against anybody good. He missed Thielen on a potential touchdown pass.  Cousins has not been good this year. He actively lost us the Green Bay game. And he wasn't even needed for our two wins which was all Cook. Cousins has a fumbling problem that he can't solve. So I assume he probably gets skittish and wants to get rid of the ball before he fumbles.  Exacerbated by the fact the Oline stinks especially against good defenses. Kirk has fumbled at least 4 times this year.  Thielen may also be frustrated with Zimmer sticking his nose in the offense and insisting on running, when running Cook straight up the middle into 1000 lbs of beef clearly wasn't working.  We needed more creativity to deal with a pass rush.  The staff has not shown a great ability to make in-game adjustments.  Zimmer and Spielman may be on the hot seat if this continues.  

 

You are definitely right though.  Thielen is pissed, he rarely says anything.  Diggs isn't happy either. 

 

They will still put up points on mediocre or bad teams, which will fool you into thinking they are good, which they really aren't.  Much closer to average. 

Edited September 30, 2019 by purplemonster

[DMD]

Well what has changed? Cousins to Thielen was prolific in 2018. Nine 100-yard games. Nine touchdowns. Thielen cooled down a bit at the end of last year but it is odd that something that worked so well in 2018 is now struggling. I think he set a record with his  eight straight 100-yard games. There is a new offensive coordinator this year and the offense was designed around the run, not the pass. I'd guess it is blocking and playcalling. Cousins was great in 2018. Something changed.

[Shaft]

Cousin was great against mediocre teams! Let's see if that changes as the season progresses. 

[purplemonster]

1 hour ago, DMD said:

Well what has changed? Cousins to Thielen was prolific in 2018. Nine 100-yard games. Nine touchdowns. Thielen cooled down a bit at the end of last year but it is odd that something that worked so well in 2018 is now struggling. I think he set a record with his  eight straight 100-yard games. There is a new offensive coordinator this year and the offense was designed around the run, not the pass. I'd guess it is blocking and playcalling. Cousins was great in 2018. Something changed.

Definitely not great.  Actually I think he was extremely average in 2018.  Thielen is legitimately great.  Diggs can be great.  Cook is great if he has room to run. Kirk had fumbling issues last year too.  Also no discussion of Kirk's stats is complete without mentioning how much of it comes in garbage time against prevent defenses where he actually comes alive and is good/decent when the game is out of reach. He is the ultimate stats padder. 

 

The offense can hum against average or bad defenses, no argument there.  Anybody good has been a problem. I think Kirk is 4-25 against winning teams. 

Edited September 30, 2019 by purplemonster

[Gopher]

Well, the OC changed, and they appear to be hell-bent on running the ball.  Which is great when you're dominating ATL and OAK, but becomes a problem when you fall behind early against the likes of Green Bay and Chicago on the road.  Cousins struggled against GB (and threw a very costly INT in the red zone late to seal the game), and was pretty much terrible yesterday.  That is, until CHI basically went into prevent mode (up 16-0 late), at which point Cousins completed about a dozen passes in a row.  Basically, he's pretty good (accurate) when he has time to throw, but I'd say he's one of the worst in the league when it comes to handling pressure.  Doesn't make good decisions, and is not very mobile.  

 

That said, I'm not sure Keenum would have been any better.  He was SLIGHTLY more mobile (at least it felt that way, from what I recall), but he didn't do so well under pressure either.  Case in point, the 2018 NFC Championship game.  That was a disaster.  And, in hindsight, the 2017/2018 season was basically a "waiting for the ball to drop" as a Vikings fan.... Keenum survived a lot of "throw it up for grabs and hope" plays that season, and most of them landed in his favor.  But I do remember cringing a lot as I watched him handle defensive pressure, thinking that he "got away with one" on several occasions.  

 

And, let's be real.  Other than that late INT against Green Bay, Cousins played pretty well in that game.  Minnesota dominated Green Bay on both sides of the ball for a good chunk of the game, after falling behind 21-0.  A couple of things (besides the INT) killed them.... The offensive PI call on the 2-yard Diggs touchdown to end the first half (which was overturned on a very weak pick call on the other side of the field, causing MIN to settle for a FG), and Diggs taking his helmet off after his long TD catch (which forced Bailey to attempt a 47-yard PAT, which was missed).  As bad as Cousins has looked at times, those types of plays (inexcusable penalties when EVERY point matters) are a real kick to the teeth.  

 

I'm not sure what the answer is.  Ironically, people are complaining about the same thing as last year (offense and play-calling), even though the formula in terms of run versus pass has been very different.  I still maintain that the defense let them down a lot last year.  Couldn't stop the Bills at home, for example.  This year, the defense has been pretty stout, overall.  They're going to have to become a lot less predictable on offense (you show your cards when you line up with three TE's on 1st down), and cut down on the stupid mistakes.  

[League_Champion]

1 hour ago, Gopher said:

Well, the OC changed, and they appear to be hell-bent on running the ball.  Which is great when you're dominating ATL and OAK, but becomes a problem when you fall behind early against the likes of Green Bay and Chicago on the road.  Cousins struggled against GB (and threw a very costly INT in the red zone late to seal the game), and was pretty much terrible yesterday.  That is, until CHI basically went into prevent mode (up 16-0 late), at which point Cousins completed about a dozen passes in a row.  Basically, he's pretty good (accurate) when he has time to throw, but I'd say he's one of the worst in the league when it comes to handling pressure.  Doesn't make good decisions, and is not very mobile.  

 

That said, I'm not sure Keenum would have been any better.  He was SLIGHTLY more mobile (at least it felt that way, from what I recall), but he didn't do so well under pressure either.  Case in point, the 2018 NFC Championship game.  That was a disaster.  And, in hindsight, the 2017/2018 season was basically a "waiting for the ball to drop" as a Vikings fan.... Keenum survived a lot of "throw it up for grabs and hope" plays that season, and most of them landed in his favor.  But I do remember cringing a lot as I watched him handle defensive pressure, thinking that he "got away with one" on several occasions.  

 

And, let's be real.  Other than that late INT against Green Bay, Cousins played pretty well in that game.  Minnesota dominated Green Bay on both sides of the ball for a good chunk of the game, after falling behind 21-0.  A couple of things (besides the INT) killed them.... The offensive PI call on the 2-yard Diggs touchdown to end the first half (which was overturned on a very weak pick call on the other side of the field, causing MIN to settle for a FG), and Diggs taking his helmet off after his long TD catch (which forced Bailey to attempt a 47-yard PAT, which was missed).  As bad as Cousins has looked at times, those types of plays (inexcusable penalties when EVERY point matters) are a real kick to the teeth.  

 

I'm not sure what the answer is.  Ironically, people are complaining about the same thing as last year (offense and play-calling), even though the formula in terms of run versus pass has been very different.  I still maintain that the defense let them down a lot last year.  Couldn't stop the Bills at home, for example.  This year, the defense has been pretty stout, overall.  They're going to have to become a lot less predictable on offense (you show your cards when you line up with three TE's on 1st down), and cut down on the stupid mistakes.  

 

Good analysis Gopher, appreciated. 

[purplemonster]

The thing is Thielen and Diggs are very good at 50/50 balls so throwing it up (both were top 5 in the league in contested catch rate) are not bad strategies and it worked for Keenum.  Also he had way better pocket presence and scrambling than Cousins.  I don't know if he's a better QB but for this team with a questionable OL I think he is/was.  And a lot cheaper.  Much rather have Bridgewater too.  Same or better performance for much less money.  Although BW doesn't look totally the same to me as he was early on.  

Edited October 1, 2019 by purplemonster

[stethant]

Run-first offenses in the modern era are simply death. They cannot compete. 

 

1. It doesn't help that Cousins isn't very good but overreacting to being pass-happy last year isn't a solution either. The Kubiak-style offense is passe now.

 

The Vikings WRs are too talented to be criminally underutilized this year, which was entirely predictable based on the OC and Kubiak.

[League_Champion]

9 hours ago, stethant said:

Run-first offenses in the modern era are simply death. They cannot compete. 

 

1. It doesn't help that Cousins isn't very good but overreacting to being pass-happy last year isn't a solution either. The Kubiak-style offense is passe now.

 

The Vikings WRs are too talented to be criminally underutilized this year, which was entirely predictable based on the OC and Kubiak.

 

Agree. They have the weapons, do they have the QB? 

[1fastdoc]

15 hours ago, stethant said:

Run-first offenses in the modern era are simply death. They cannot compete. 

 

Someone please tell the Titans this.  

 

Watching a run first offense also sucks.  If I wanted to see a team move 3 yards forward at a time I'd watch... well, no sports do that because it's boring.

[stevegrab]

6 minutes ago, 1fastdoc said:

 

Someone please tell the Titans this.  

 

Watching a run first offense also sucks.  If I wanted to see a team move 3 yards forward at a time I'd watch... well, no sports do that because it's boring.

 

Baseball, soccer, golf, NASCAR, all more boring