Furd Posted November 22, 2004 Share Posted November 22, 2004 I've seen it now many times. My opinions haven't really changed. 1) Artest had no justification for going into the stands. None. The self-defense argument is laughable, particularly when Artest didn't know who threw the beer on him. 2) I don't think that all of the fans that went onto the court had mischief in mind. If you were sitting courtside and wanted to get away from the brawl taking place in the stands above you, the court was the best avenue of escape. 3) Not everyone on the court was fair game. (see above) The fat boy who confronted the Pacer and gave him the head bob thing was fair game. The old guy getting up off of the floor when he was clocked by O' Neal wasn't. 4) Comparisons to our experiences in life are not much help. These are huge men who waded into the stands. Police were around. Security was around. If they don't go into the stands, they do not have any real risk of injury. This isn't a case in which they were just standing around and were threatened 5) Criminal charges should be brought against Artest and O'Neal and the fans that sucker punched the Pacers. I'm sure that there are others, but I'd have to look at the tape again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HADEPUDE Posted November 22, 2004 Share Posted November 22, 2004 I agree with you on that Hook. Throw something at a player & expect to get your A$$ kicked. ANYONE should be able to defend themselves period! Just because they have a uniform on doesn't take that right from them. Again, it would've been in Artest's best interest to not go in the stands. But, I don't see how anyone can blame him. 565625[/snapback] You must me an Indiana Slappy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rovers Posted November 22, 2004 Share Posted November 22, 2004 I've seen it now many times. My opinions haven't really changed. 1) Artest had no justification for going into the stands. None. The self-defense argument is laughable, particularly when Artest didn't know who threw the beer on him. 2) I don't think that all of the fans that went onto the court had mischief in mind. If you were sitting courtside and wanted to get away from the brawl taking place in the stands above you, the court was the best avenue of escape. 3) Not everyone on the court was fair game. (see above) The fat boy who confronted the Pacer and gave him the head bob thing was fair game. The old guy getting up off of the floor when he was clocked by O' Neal wasn't. 4) Comparisons to our experiences in life are not much help. These are huge men who waded into the stands. Police were around. Security was around. If they don't go into the stands, they do not have any real risk of injury. This isn't a case in which they were just standing around and were threatened 5) Criminal charges should be brought against Artest and O'Neal and the fans that sucker punched the Pacers. I'm sure that there are others, but I'd have to look at the tape again. 569835[/snapback] I am with furd, and so is David Stern, and he is the only one whose opinion really matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackshi17 Posted November 22, 2004 Share Posted November 22, 2004 go back and check. You said career long suspensions. You said the suspensions would be indefinite. They were. For a day. You also said that Jackson and O'Neal would get indefinite suspensions. Your definition (now) of indefinite, was season long. They didn't. I will admit to being surprised about Artest's penalty. But I'm sure you know, the NBAPA is challenging them. Oh, and here you go. . .lol. 569642[/snapback] Why don't you repost that one you deleted when you thought the suspensions were only for 30 days etc. Now that post was funny and wrong! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1stimer Posted November 22, 2004 Share Posted November 22, 2004 Does anyone have a website which shows the brawl? I haven't seen it ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHook Posted November 22, 2004 Share Posted November 22, 2004 (edited) Why don't you repost that one you deleted when you thought the suspensions were only for 30 days etc.Now that post was funny and wrong! 570260[/snapback] Local news was reporting on a crawl during the Colts game that Artest had been suspended 30 games. O'Neal 20. Jackson 20. Wallace 5. Supposedly it was from a Detroit television station. When I found out it was wrong, I deleted that info here, and put in a correction on the other thread. Edited November 22, 2004 by CaptainHook Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHook Posted November 22, 2004 Share Posted November 22, 2004 3) Not everyone on the court was fair game. (see above) The fat boy who confronted the Pacer and gave him the head bob thing was fair game. The old guy getting up off of the floor when he was clocked by O' Neal wasn't. 569835[/snapback] The "old guy getting up off the floor" was the fat boy's buddy. When Artest clocked fatty, his buddy pushed Artest and tried to tackle him. That is when Anthony Johnson steps in and starts in on him. As he's getting up, O'Neal clocks him. It looks like two seperate incidents because they switch cameras. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHook Posted November 22, 2004 Share Posted November 22, 2004 After a few days, I have to admit, Artest made the wrong decision. He should have just pointed out the guy. However, I think he reacted in a way a lot of people would have. Just as I don't feel Ben Wallace can be held accountable for the melee that resulted from his actions, I think too much is being blamed on Artest. He DID NOT PUNCH THE GUY he thought threw the full cup in his face. I've seen it a hundred times. He grabs him, pushes him, and they start to fall. At that point people start grabbing and punching Artest in the back of the head, and from then on, I don't think the riot is his fault. HE SHOULD NOT have gone into the stands, but his responsibility for what happens ends at that point. Fans/security/etc. are all to blame. His suspension is too harsh. Jackson's I can agree with. He went into the fans looking for a fight, and threw a punch at a guy who did nothing to him. O'Neal's suspension though, is ridiculous. He punched a guy he saw try to tackle Artest, and was currently fighting with Anthony Johnson. He was protecting his friends, and that fat tub should never have been on the court in the first place. Here's hoping the NBAPA can shorten those suspensions. . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furd Posted November 22, 2004 Share Posted November 22, 2004 After a few days, I have to admit, Artest made the wrong decision. He should have just pointed out the guy. However, I think he reacted in a way a lot of people would have. Just as I don't feel Ben Wallace can be held accountable for the melee that resulted from his actions, I think too much is being blamed on Artest. He DID NOT PUNCH THE GUY he thought threw the full cup in his face. I've seen it a hundred times. He grabs him, pushes him, and they start to fall. At that point people start grabbing and punching Artest in the back of the head, and from then on, I don't think the riot is his fault. HE SHOULD NOT have gone into the stands, but his responsibility for what happens ends at that point. Fans/security/etc. are all to blame. His suspension is too harsh. Jackson's I can agree with. He went into the fans looking for a fight, and threw a punch at a guy who did nothing to him. O'Neal's suspension though, is ridiculous. He punched a guy he saw try to tackle Artest, and was currently fighting with Anthony Johnson. He was protecting his friends, and that fat tub should never have been on the court in the first place. Here's hoping the NBAPA can shorten those suspensions. . . 570565[/snapback] I don't follow you at all. Although he had no idea who dumped the beer on him, a 6'7" 240 pound Artest charges up into the stands, grabs a guy that he thought might have done something and throws him down into the stands. Apparently, since he didn't PUNCH THE GUY, something different should have happened. Did he deserve getting a cup of beer thrown at him? No. But Artest is responsible for the riot. He charges up into the stands to tackle a guy and you're surprised that the fans reacted the way he did? If Artest doesn't go into the stands, there is no riot. Period. He deserves every day of his suspension. Fans share much of the blame, but security? Are they supposed to anticipate that Artest is going to wig out and charge into the stands? I guess all NBA security will be beefed up now. I don't know how you can defend O'Neal. A 6"11" 240 pound man clocks a dumpy guy who is trying to get up off of the floor. Are you saying that he was afraid for his safety or protecting somebody? Give me a break. Very few of the punches were thrown in self-defense. Your boys were pissed and they were looking to bust somebody up. O' Neal, Artest and Jackson should face criminal charges, as should the fan that dumped the beer, as should most if not all of the fans that threw punches and the fan that threw the chair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHook Posted November 23, 2004 Share Posted November 23, 2004 I don't follow you at all. Although he had no idea who dumped the beer on him, a 6'7" 240 pound Artest charges up into the stands, grabs a guy that he thought might have done something and throws him down into the stands. Apparently, since he didn't PUNCH THE GUY, something different should have happened. Did he deserve getting a cup of beer thrown at him? No. But Artest is responsible for the riot. He charges up into the stands to tackle a guy and you're surprised that the fans reacted the way he did? If Artest doesn't go into the stands, there is no riot. Period. He deserves every day of his suspension. Fans share much of the blame, but security? Are they supposed to anticipate that Artest is going to wig out and charge into the stands? I guess all NBA security will be beefed up now. I don't know how you can defend O'Neal. A 6"11" 240 pound man clocks a dumpy guy who is trying to get up off of the floor. Are you saying that he was afraid for his safety or protecting somebody? Give me a break. Very few of the punches were thrown in self-defense. Your boys were pissed and they were looking to bust somebody up. O' Neal, Artest and Jackson should face criminal charges, as should the fan that dumped the beer, as should most if not all of the fans that threw punches and the fan that threw the chair. 570647[/snapback] No, you are misunderstanding me. Vernon Maxwell got 10 games for assaulting a fan. Artest DID assault the guy, no question. But he did not start hitting other people until he got popped in the back of the head a couple times by the real beer-chucker. I don't think you can blame the rest of the riot on Artest, once other fans got involved. His suspension should not be more than SEVEN TIMES what Maxwell's was. Security was lax in allowing fans onto the court. Eyewitnesses said security was NOWHERE to be found, except one cop threatening to use pepper spray. When I'm at a Colts game, if something is thrown, there are 4 cops there within minutes to arrest the guilty moron. No one was arrested at the Palace, and now they are having to use video to figure out who was throwing stuff. Give me a break. O'Neal is easily defended, I think. He sees a guy fighting Artest and Anthony Johson. A guy who should not be on the floor. I have no sympathy for that fat turd. Detroit prosecutor says the criminal charges for players and fans will all be misdemeanors, except for the fan that threw the chair. If they can find out who it was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puddy Posted November 23, 2004 Share Posted November 23, 2004 No, you are misunderstanding me. Vernon Maxwell got 10 games for assaulting a fan. Artest DID assault the guy, no question. But he did not start hitting other people until he got popped in the back of the head a couple times by the real beer-chucker. I don't think you can blame the rest of the riot on Artest, once other fans got involved. His suspension should not be more than SEVEN TIMES what Maxwell's was. Security was lax in allowing fans onto the court. Eyewitnesses said security was NOWHERE to be found, except one cop threatening to use pepper spray. When I'm at a Colts game, if something is thrown, there are 4 cops there within minutes to arrest the guilty moron. No one was arrested at the Palace, and now they are having to use video to figure out who was throwing stuff. Give me a break. O'Neal is easily defended, I think. He sees a guy fighting Artest and Anthony Johson. A guy who should not be on the floor. I have no sympathy for that fat turd. Detroit prosecutor says the criminal charges for players and fans will all be misdemeanors, except for the fan that threw the chair. If they can find out who it was. 570810[/snapback] I heard what I thought was a pretty good take on the security level on local Detroit radio. There were 45 seconds left in a regular season basketball game. Most of the fans had cleared out by then. The majority of the officers would have been outside the arena for crowd control/traffic direction since that's where most of the people were. Seems like a logical place for them to be. Obviously in hindsight it wasn't, but I can understand why there seemed to be too little in the building. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackshi17 Posted November 23, 2004 Share Posted November 23, 2004 (edited) Too bad it wasn't in Texas...you know the expression one riot, one Ranger. AUBURN HILLS, Mich. (AP) - Investigators interviewed nine people injured in the brawl at the end of the Pistons-Pacers game, but no charges were imminent in the case, the county prosecutor said Monday. Police were also reviewing videotapes and interviewing witnesses from Friday night's melee, when Indiana forward Ron Artest charged into the stands after a fan threw a cup at him. If charges are filed, they probably would be for assault and battery, a misdemeanor that could bring a three-month jail sentence, said David Gorcyca, the Oakland County prosecutor. The only possible felony charge could be against the person who hurled a chair into the crowd. Police Chief Doreen Olko said none of the people involved was seriously injured. Asked if Artest could claim self-defense, Gorcyca said: "Even if someone did throw water, you don't have a license or a green light to punch them." John Green of West Bloomfield Township was the fan who threw the cup at Artest, Gorcyca said. The prosecutor identified Green - a former next-door neighbor - by repeatedly watching footage of the brawl. Green, however, told reporters he didn't throw the cup. "I wish the whole thing didn't happen," he said. "I'm sure the NBA players that got involved in it wish it never happened, the fans never wished that it had happened. I know I don't. It was awful, it was ugly." Pistons chief executive Tom Wilson said Green is a season-ticket holder and will be banned from The Palace. On Sunday, the NBA suspended Artest for the rest of the season. The league also suspended Indiana's Stephen Jackson for 30 games and teammate Jermaine O'Neal for 25. Detroit's Ben Wallace - whose shove of Artest after a foul led to the five-minute fracas - drew a six-game ban, while Pacers guard Anthony Johnson got five games. Four players - Indiana's Reggie Miller, and Detroit's Chauncey Billups, Elden Campbell and Derrick Coleman - were suspended one game apiece for leaving the bench during the initial fight. Edited November 23, 2004 by jackshi17 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puddy Posted November 23, 2004 Share Posted November 23, 2004 David Gorcyca, the Oakland County prosecutor. John Green of West Bloomfield Township was the fan who threw the cup at Artest, Gorcyca said. The prosecutor identified Green - a former next-door neighbor - by repeatedly watching footage of the brawl. 571109[/snapback] How funny is that. The idiot who threw the cup is a former next-door neighbor of the Oakland County prosecutor. Sure saves time trying to find people to identify him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skrappy1 Posted November 23, 2004 Share Posted November 23, 2004 (edited) Too bad it wasn't in Texas...you know the expression one riot, one Ranger. 571109[/snapback] That must be a local expression. The only one I've ever heard about Texas is that, "Ain't nothing there but steers and..." well I'm pretty sure you know the rest. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Edited November 24, 2004 by Skrappy1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bender Rodriguez Posted November 23, 2004 Author Share Posted November 23, 2004 Does anyone have a website which shows the brawl? I haven't seen it ... 570318[/snapback] Just turn on ESPN and watch for about 30 seconds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Like Soup Posted November 24, 2004 Share Posted November 24, 2004 I've seen it now many times. My opinions haven't really changed. 1) Artest had no justification for going into the stands. None. The self-defense argument is laughable, particularly when Artest didn't know who threw the beer on him. 2) I don't think that all of the fans that went onto the court had mischief in mind. If you were sitting courtside and wanted to get away from the brawl taking place in the stands above you, the court was the best avenue of escape. 3) Not everyone on the court was fair game. (see above) The fat boy who confronted the Pacer and gave him the head bob thing was fair game. The old guy getting up off of the floor when he was clocked by O' Neal wasn't. 4) Comparisons to our experiences in life are not much help. These are huge men who waded into the stands. Police were around. Security was around. If they don't go into the stands, they do not have any real risk of injury. This isn't a case in which they were just standing around and were threatened 5) Criminal charges should be brought against Artest and O'Neal and the fans that sucker punched the Pacers. I'm sure that there are others, but I'd have to look at the tape again. 569835[/snapback] After reading through much of this thread, I must say I agree with Furd. Although, I think Furd got one thing wrong...the self defense thing is not laughable, it is ludicrous. If I was in a bar and a beer was thrown at me....blah blah blah.....:oldrollingeyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.