michaeljordan ca Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 Just broke a 4 way tie to determine playoff seedings and am now second guessing myself. The last 4 teams to qualify for the final 4 spots all had 6-7 records. 3 were from the same division and played each other twice, while the other team played the three only once. Team a goes 1-1 against team b but edges him in points. (beat him by more than he got beat) Team a goes 1-1 vs team c and they tie in points. (both got beat by same amount) I give team a the nod on the third tie-breaker total points for. Lastly team a loses to team d, which I figure to be a 2-1 record head to head amongst the four. Team b goes 1-1 against team c as well, yet they win on points. Then team b also beats team d so I give them a 2-1 record. Team c as above then beats team d, so I give them 1-2 record. Team d winds up 1-2 as well. So the top 2 are team a & B with team a getting the nod because they beat them as above head to head. Of the bottom two, team c gets the nod as per their matchup. So I seeded Team a-d, 1-4 accordingly. Now I am thinking perhaps I should have taken all their records even though they are un-even and ranked accordingly. So Team a actualy went 2-3, team b went 3-2, team c 3-2 and team d 1-2. So team b would get the first seed based on head to head with team c, and then team c followed by team a and team d. I am now thouroughly confused are you? Also here are the tie breakers rules as posted on our website: Tie Breaker System (teams with identical records): 1. Head to Head (wins then point spreads). 2. Total Points For (amount scored over year). 3. Coin Flip. Help!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roller Coasters Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 Ordinarily, head to head is only used to break a tie between two teams or if on team beat every other team. Other than that, you would go to the next tie-breaker, which in your case would be total points. Once you then get a top team, you start back at step one for the remaining teams that are tied. The head to head in your case would only come into play for the 3rd and 4th teams since they would be left and you start back at head to head. This is the way it is done in all of my leagues and I believe that is also the way the NFL procedure goes as far as head to head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 (edited) Add up all of their records against each other. Team with the highest win percentage is your #1 ranked team of that group per your league rules, second highest win pct is 2nd, 3rd highest is 3rd, 4th highest is 4th, and so on. If any have the same win pct., go on to your 3rd tiebreaker or start the process over for just the tied teams. I'm basing this on the way MFL handles head to head as a tiebreaker for multiple teams. Even the non-MFL run leagues I participate in with a different commish follow this procedure. Edited December 9, 2004 by Big Country Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrick35 Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 Start by determining the order of finish of the 3 Teams that are in the same division. Then check the head to head of the 1 Team from the other division against the 3 teams that are in the same division. As soon as the team from the other division wins a TB over 1 of the 3 teams from the same division, stop. That's where he would be seeded. I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 Do your rules allow for partial elimination on tie-breakers? Because no team has a superior H2H against all the other teams (ie he did not SWEEP all the others) and because no team has a clearly inferior H2H against all the other teams (ie he was swept by all the other teams) the H2H tie-breaker can not be used. So with partial eliminations you drop to tie-breaker 2 and the team with the most points is the top seed. Then you revert back to H2H if you can. Without partial eliminations they are seeded based on the YTD points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itsnottatooma Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 Here's how we do it in the league that I'm commish. I pretty much stole this from the NFL rule book. If more than two teams are involved in a tiebreaker, only one team may advance during any tie-breaking step. The remaining tied teams will then revert to first step of the tie-breaking scheme. As an example, Teams A, B and C are tied. The first tiebreaker, head to head, yields the following: A is 3-2, B is 3-2 and C is 2-4. C is thereby eliminated from this step and teams A and B are compared head-to-head. Between them, A is 2-1 and B is 1-2, therefore team A advances while B and C revert to the original scheme to determine who is second. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 Here's how we do it in the league that I'm commish. I pretty much stole this from the NFL rule book. If more than two teams are involved in a tiebreaker, only one team may advance during any tie-breaking step. The remaining tied teams will then revert to first step of the tie-breaking scheme. As an example, Teams A, B and C are tied. The first tiebreaker, head to head, yields the following: A is 3-2, B is 3-2 and C is 2-4. C is thereby eliminated from this step and teams A and B are compared head-to-head. Between them, A is 2-1 and B is 1-2, therefore team A advances while B and C revert to the original scheme to determine who is second. 601829[/snapback] You aren't following your rules. "Only one team may advance during any tie-breaking step" ... then in your first step you eliminated team C ... which means that TWO teams advanced out of the first step. In addition you applied a winning percentage tie-breaker NOT a H2H tie-breaker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itsnottatooma Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 (edited) You aren't following your rules. "Only one team may advance during any tie-breaking step" ... then in your first step you eliminated team C ... which means that TWO teams advanced out of the first step. In addition you applied a winning percentage tie-breaker NOT a H2H tie-breaker. 601846[/snapback] Good catch Grits! It should read "only one team may advance OR BE ELIMINATED in any step" Maybe I'll change the name to winning percentage tiebreaker too. I don't think anybody in my league is that much into semantics though. I'm pretty sure more than half of them have never even read this part of the rulebook. Edited to add: Maybe I should have you proofread all my league rules! Edited December 9, 2004 by Itsnottatooma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 Good catch Grits! It should read "only one team may advance OR BE ELIMINATED in any step" Maybe I'll change the name to winning percentage tiebreaker too. I don't think anybody in my league is that much into semantics though. I'm pretty sure more than half of them have never even read this part of the rulebook. Edited to add: Maybe I should have you proofread all my league rules! 601879[/snapback] It's not a semantics thing we are talking about ... H2H is different than Winning Percentage. If your rules say H2H then you must apply H2H and not Winning Percentage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 It's not a semantics thing we are talking about ... H2H is different than Winning Percentage. If your rules say H2H then you must apply H2H and not Winning Percentage. 601887[/snapback] Grits, see my reply to yor post, but per the NFL tiebreak page, h2h is indeed winning percentage and head to head sweep is a totally separate and differently defined tiebreak procedure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itsnottatooma Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 It's not a semantics thing we are talking about ... H2H is different than Winning Percentage. If your rules say H2H then you must apply H2H and not Winning Percentage. 601887[/snapback] The rules say "head to head" and then point to my definition of "head to head". I guess I could call it something else, like "jumping jacks" and that would be better for you? This is not worth arguing about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 Grits, see my reply to yor post, but per the NFL tiebreak page, h2h is indeed winning percentage and head to head sweep is a totally separate and differently defined tiebreak procedure. 601900[/snapback] H2H winning percentage is only applied when teams are in the same division. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itsnottatooma Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 It's not a semantics thing we are talking about ... H2H is different than Winning Percentage. If your rules say H2H then you must apply H2H and not Winning Percentage. 601887[/snapback] The rules say "head to head" and then point to my definition of "head to head". I guess I could call it something else, like "jumping jacks" and that would be better for you? This is not worth arguing about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 H2H winning percentage is only applied when teams are in the same division. 601909[/snapback] By the NFL, but, this is a fantasy league we are talking about, and so if we are to be anal about it, "head to head" and "head to head sweep" are two very different things, thus if a fantasy leagues rules only state "head to head" it has to be assumed based on established NFL definitions that "win percentage or tied teams" is the determining factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 The rules say "head to head" and then point to my definition of "head to head". I guess I could call it something else, like "jumping jacks" and that would be better for you? This is not worth arguing about. 601911[/snapback] If your rules say "Head to Head" but then go on to give a winning percentage definition then you are right it matters not what you call it as long as you are following the rules. If, however, your rules say "Head to Head" and you are intrepreting it to mean winning percentage then I'd have a problem with the way you run your league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 By the NFL, but, this is a fantasy league we are talking about, and so if we are to be anal about it, "head to head" and "head to head sweep" are two very different things, thus if a fantasy leagues rules only state "head to head" it has to be assumed based on established NFL definitions that "win percentage or tied teams" is the determining factor. 601914[/snapback] I disagree ... the only time winning percentage is used is inside your own division ... otherwise H2H requires a sweep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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