Grits and Shins Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 It's that time of year ... leagues are finalizing their playoff brackets ... and as is inevitable there are leagues out there that either do not have tie-breakers in place or do not understand how to apply their tie-breakers. Obviously ties between 2 teams are fairly straight forward and easy to handle. It's when you have ties between more than 2 teams that people seem to get confused. Almost everybody has a head-to-head tie-breaker (H2H). Yet there seem to be people out there that do not understand the H2H concept. You can win a H2H tie-breaker if you have won ALL your games against ALL the teams that are tied. You can also lose a H2H tie-breaker if you have lost ALL your games against ALL the teams that are tied. With 3 teams tied: Scenario 1 Team A split with team B Team A defeated team C Team B defeated team C In this case Team C is eliminated because they were defeated by both other teams. Scenario 2 Team A split with team B Team A defeated team C Team C defeated team B In this case NO team has the H2H advantage. If you attempt to say team A is 2-1 and team C is 1-1 and team B is 1-2 and thus the teams should be seed A, C and B then you are NO LONGER DOING A H2H TIE-BREAKER ... BUT A WINNING PERCENTAGE TIE-BREAKER. FOR A H2H TIE-BREAKER TO BE APPLIED A TEAM MUST HAVE WON ALL THEIR GAMES AGAINST ALL THE TIED TEAMS OR MUST HAVE LOST ALL THEIR GAMES AGAINST ALL THE TIED TEAMS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crispirons Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 i had trouble grasping this concept in a league i'm in here at the huddle. it is probably the best way to go about multi team ties. unless there is something written into the rules about winning percentage amongst tied teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itsnottatooma Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 OK, so call it whatever you like. "Winning percentage tiebreaker" sounds fine to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted December 9, 2004 Author Share Posted December 9, 2004 The other thing to consider is whether your rules allow for partial elimination or not. What does "partial elimination" mean, you ask? That means that when you have multiple teams tied you have 1 of 2 scenarios: 1) One of the teams "wins" the current tie-breaker being applied. This team advances and the remaining teams go back to the top of the tie-breakers. 2) One of the teams "loses" the current tie-breaker being applied. This team is eliminated and the remaining teams go back to the top of the tie-breakers. If your league does not allow partial eliminations then you will have to go all the way to a tie-breaker that will result in all teams being seeded ... like total points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted December 9, 2004 Author Share Posted December 9, 2004 OK, so call it whatever you like. "Winning percentage tiebreaker" sounds fine to me. 601866[/snapback] Ahh ... but if your rules say "Head to Head" then you can NOT apply use the "Winning Percentage" method that so many of you are trying to employ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 From the NFL.com tiebreak page: Three or More Clubs (Note: If two clubs remain tied after third or other clubs are eliminated during any step, tie breaker reverts to step 1 of the two-club format). 1. Head-to-head (best won-lost-tied percentage in games among the clubs). Head to head is DEFINED by the NFL as the best win percentage. They have a separate tiebreak category defined as Head to head sweep. 2. Head-to-head sweep. (Applicable only if one club has defeated each of the others or if one club has lost to each of the others.) So, unless your rules specifically state that head to head sweep is the tiebreak procedure, I would contend, as I did in the post that i believe brought up this thread, that what is meant in most rules when head to head is used as a tiebreaker is in fact the above pasted definition for head to head, as i stated ot that poster, not the clearly defined different rule of hea to head sweep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted December 9, 2004 Author Share Posted December 9, 2004 BC ... that is to break a tie WITHIN YOUR OWN DIVISION. If you are tied with teams outside your division then a sweep is required. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 BC ... that is to break a tie WITHIN YOUR OWN DIVISION. If you are tied with teams outside your division then a sweep is required. 601924[/snapback] Again, that is NFL rules. This is fantasy, so unless your fantasy league rules specifically state you are following the NFL rules, it does not matter how the NFL applies their rules, it is a matter of how your fantasy league rules are written. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loaf Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 I'm still confused Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted December 9, 2004 Author Share Posted December 9, 2004 I'm still confused 601934[/snapback] That never changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turf Boy Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 I don't know why people use head to head in fantasy football as the first tie breaker. Why not go with total points as the first tie breaker? This is fantasy football, not the NFL where you actually lined up on the field against the other team. It's random who you play every week in FF. Why not use the tie breaker to award the spot to the most deserving team? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 I'm still confused 601934[/snapback] blitz is confusing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
georgemoe Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 MFL uses Blitz's example as a H2H /win% tiebreaker. That's fine with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whomper Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 What we do in our league is pretty similar to what you explained.We use the head to head system but if its a 3 way tie and there is no clear head to head winner we go to high points..If you use the winning %age theory than wouldnt you agree that the team that played the extra game would have an advanatge or disadvantage over the guy that just played the other 2 once?Going to high points seems to work out pretty good after head to head.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 (edited) What we do in our league is pretty similar to what you explained.We use the head to head system but if its a 3 way tie and there is no clear head to head winner we go to high points..If you use the winning %age theory than wouldnt you agree that the team that played the extra game would have an advanatge or disadvantage over the guy that just played the other 2 once?Going to high points seems to work out pretty good after head to head.. 603445[/snapback] I would argue he is just as likelt to have lost more games than to have won more games, so no, there is no advantage/disadvantage there. I also believe that head to head should be no higher than the #3 tiebreaker, behind overall record and total points scored, if used at all. I am only arguing that FF leagues are not the NFL, so unless league rules state that the NFL system is to be used for tiebreakers, the rules as defined by the league are the system to be used. And if NFL definitions of tiebreaker rules are the official source, then there is a clear distinction made my the NFL between "head to head" and "head to head sweep". So, if a leagues rules state that the NFL system is to be used, then I agree, "head to head sweep" is the correct application. If league rules state "head to head" is to be used, then the NFL defined rule of "head to head", which is win pct. of teams with the same overall record should be used, as it is the rule that matters, not the NFL's application of rules. The NFL's application of tienreaking rules are irrelevant to fantasy leagues that have defined their own tiebreaking procedures. Edited December 10, 2004 by Big Country Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whomper Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 (edited) I would argue he is just as likelt to have lost more games than to have won more games, so no, there is no advantage/disadvantage there. If the guy that is 1-1 loses out to the guy that is 2-1 based on winning percentage than its unfair to the 1-1 guy and if that same guy wins out over the other because the other was 1-2 then its unfair to the 1-2 guy..Its a really tough call .Thats why when its unclear after head to head first we go to points..I feel head to head is the best #1 tie breaker because it would really steam me up to lose out to a guy that I had the same record as and beat head to head because of a different tie breaker.. Edited December 10, 2004 by whomper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Like Soup Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 I don't know why people use head to head in fantasy football as the first tie breaker. Why not go with total points as the first tie breaker? This is fantasy football, not the NFL where you actually lined up on the field against the other team. It's random who you play every week in FF. Why not use the tie breaker to award the spot to the most deserving team? 601951[/snapback] The more I think about this, the more I like it. In FF, you have different players on byes, etc. and can't help who is off when you may play a person you are in a tiebreaker with. You are at the mercy of the schedule, not who you started. I would think total pts is a better reflection of your team's overall performance over the course of a season, not one game in week 6 that you played someone from another division and three of your studs were on a bye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted December 10, 2004 Author Share Posted December 10, 2004 I would argue he is just as likelt to have lost more games than to have won more games, so no, there is no advantage/disadvantage there. I also believe that head to head should be no higher than the #3 tiebreaker, behind overall record and total points scored, if used at all. I am only arguing that FF leagues are not the NFL, so unless league rules state that the NFL system is to be used for tiebreakers, the rules as defined by the league are the system to be used. And if NFL definitions of tiebreaker rules are the official source, then there is a clear distinction made my the NFL between "head to head" and "head to head sweep". So, if a leagues rules state that the NFL system is to be used, then I agree, "head to head sweep" is the correct application. If league rules state "head to head" is to be used, then the NFL defined rule of "head to head", which is win pct. of teams with the same overall record should be used, as it is the rule that matters, not the NFL's application of rules. The NFL's application of tienreaking rules are irrelevant to fantasy leagues that have defined their own tiebreaking procedures. 603523[/snapback] I disagree ... the distinction in H2H and H2H Sweep in the NFL is made when you are breaking ties with teams inside the divisino verse inside and outside the division. When you are breaking ties with teams in and out of a division clearly a H2H sweep of all your opponents is required ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted December 10, 2004 Author Share Posted December 10, 2004 The more I think about this, the more I like it. In FF, you have different players on byes, etc. and can't help who is off when you may play a person you are in a tiebreaker with. You are at the mercy of the schedule, not who you started. I would think total pts is a better reflection of your team's overall performance over the course of a season, not one game in week 6 that you played someone from another division and three of your studs were on a bye. 604042[/snapback] If you have three of your stud players on the same bye then that is a draft strategy you employed ... if you want to avoid issues like that then you should draft accordingly. When you play in a H2H league its all about H2H and it does not matter if you win by 1 point or 100 points ... you won. In a total points league two teams can score about the same points every week but one ... and in that one week the team that exploded wins based on that week. If you play H2H competition then H2H tie-breakers should be used when there is a clear H2H advantage or disadvantage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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