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NFL Rules question


myhousekey
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Question that came up yesterday as some friends of mine discussed the onsides kick by Dallas last Monday night...

 

If a team attempts an onsides kick that sails in the air about 15 yards (doesn't bounce off the ground) and the receiving team signals a fair catch can the kicking team jump in front of the receiver and catch the ball? If he does, is it the kicking teams ball? (ie a successful onsides kick)

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This exact situation came up in the MNF game last year, Indy at Tampa Bay. The Colts first onside kick was lobbed in the air off Vanderjagt's foot. It did NOT touch the ground first. However, since no TB players waived for a fair catch, the Colts jumped up and recovered.

 

However, the next day, the NFL ruled that it had been an illegal onsides. Since it did not touch the ground, the receiving team MUST be given a chance to catch the ball, even if they did not signal for the fair catch. The Colts should have been penalized for jumping up and catching the ball first.

Edited by CaptainHook
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:D

 

I don't know ... I'd say that signaling a fair catch on a onside kick is probably not legal

 

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You may signal for a fair catch on an onsides. However, most teams kick the ball off the ground first. A ball cannot be fair caught once it bounces off the turf.

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By definition, an onsides kick has to touch the ground - the ball must be kicked off the tee, into the ground, then bounce wherever.

 

This came up in the Monday night game last year with the Colts and Bucs. On one of the onside kicks, Vanderjagt "scooped" the ball into the air with his foot, which the Colts recoverd. Madden and Michaels commented that it should have been a redo or change of possession because it was an illegeal onside kick. This seems like something that Madden would know (outside of Turducken anatomy).

 

So to answer your question, I think it's impossible to fair catch an onside kick by definition. Unless Madden is a liar.

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It wasn't illegal because it didn't hit the ground first. It was illegal because the Colts did not give TB the opportunity to make the catch. Michaels and Madden had no idea it was "illegal" until the NFL announced it the next day. As a matter of fact, they were criticising the Colts for not trying the exact same onsides kick on their second (failed) onsides attempt.

Edited by CaptainHook
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It wasn't illegal because it didn't hit the ground first.  It was illegal because the Colts did not give TB the opportunity to make the catch.  Michaels and Madden had no idea it was "illegal" until the NFL announced it the next day.  As a matter of fact, they were criticising the Colts for not trying the exact same onsides kick on their second (failed) onsides attempt.

 

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Wow. Apparently I'm really good at revisionist history. :D

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It wasn't illegal because it didn't hit the ground first.  It was illegal because the Colts did not give TB the opportunity to make the catch.  Michaels and Madden had no idea it was "illegal" until the NFL announced it the next day.  As a matter of fact, they were criticising the Colts for not trying the exact same onsides kick on their second (failed) onsides attempt.

 

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The kick itself wouldn't be illegal then regardless of if it touched the ground or not- as long as it goes at least 10 yards it's a legal kick.

 

The covering team would possibly be subject to penalty for voilating the "halo" around the returner, no?

 

From the NFL Rules Digest on NFL.com:

 

4. A kickoff is illegal unless it travels 10 yards OR is touched by the receiving team. Once the ball is touched by the receiving team or has gone 10 yards, it is a free ball. Receivers may recover and advance. Kicking team may recover but NOT advance UNLESS receiver had possession and lost the ball.

 

LINK

Edited by Marauders11
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No halo in the NFL. You just can't hit him before the ball gets there. A fair catch would protect you in that situation. In the case with the Colts game, to have done the same thing according to the rules, the Colts would have had to allowed someone from Tampa to try and catch it, and then drill him as soon as he touches the ball. Of course, if TB had just signaled a fair catch they would have been protected from getting hit.

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http://www.nfl.com/fans/rulesschool120501.html

 

Consulting the NFL website, this cat has this to say:

 

"On the onside kick, a player can fair-catch that kick unless it has been kicked into the ground and then pops up in the air. Once a kicked ball touches the ground, the ability to make a fair catch is off."

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From the NFL Rules Digest on NFL.com:

 

4. A kickoff is illegal unless it travels 10 yards OR is touched by the receiving team. Once the ball is touched by the receiving team or has gone 10 yards, it is a free ball. Receivers may recover and advance. Kicking team may recover but NOT advance UNLESS receiver had possession and lost the ball.

 

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My friends and I had this same discussion last year. The kick-off rule says once the ball goes 10 yards it is a free ball. However, somewhere else in the rule book there is something about allowing a catch to be made. There was a lot of talk about it last year after the NFL said the kick was illegal. I've forgotten where the rule was though.

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Did the Dallas onsides kick at the end of last weeks MNF game ever touch the ground? I missed the end of the game and only saw one quick replay of the kick, but I thought it looked like they kicked it up and Witten caught it without the ball ever hitting the ground.

 

I tend to agree you can't interfere with the other teams ability to catch the ball if he signals fair catch but what happens if the kicking team jumps up and catches the ball without touching the guy calling fair catch? Seems like that that would be a legal play.

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Did the Dallas onsides kick at the end of last weeks MNF game ever touch the ground?  I missed the end of the game and only saw one quick replay of the kick, but I thought it looked like they kicked it up and Witten caught it without the ball ever hitting the ground.

 

I tend to agree you can't interfere with the other teams ability to catch the ball if he signals fair catch but what happens if the kicking team jumps up and catches the ball without touching the guy calling fair catch?  Seems like that that would be a legal play.

 

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I don't think it touched the ground. Which is probably why Michaels and Madden inanely discussed the fair catch thing for a painful 2 minutes.

 

If Urban or whoever it was on Seattle, did call for a fair catch, he would have had the right to the ball. Because he did not, and because the ball had travelled the requisite 10 yards, therefore it became a free ball for Witten to grab.

 

It was a heckuva athletic play for Witten to make.

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Did the Dallas onsides kick at the end of last weeks MNF game ever touch the ground?

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Yes. It DID hit the ground last week. Michaels was just wrong. You CAN'T call fair catch once it's hit the ground. I rewound it on my TiVo after Michaels said that. He kicked the ball straight down, so it took an immediate high bounce.

 

but what happens if the kicking team jumps up and catches the ball without touching the guy calling fair catch?

 

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If it DIDN'T hit the ground, it would STILL be illegal to jump up and catch it. That was what the NFL said after the Colts/Tampa game, you must give them the opportunity to catch a ball in flight.

 

Think of it this way, imagine, if the kickoff went 60 yards and you had a super fast guy who beat it downfield. He could not level the guy before he catches it, or intercept the ball. That would be illegal. The same applies after 10 yards. That's why teams always kick it off the turf first, then it is live. . .

Edited by CaptainHook
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All right. It took me a while, but I found it:

 

link

 

 

TAMPA -- The NFL admitted that game officials made a critical error late in the Oct. 6 Monday night game between the Tampa Bay Buccaneers and the Indianapolis Colts, the St. Petersburg Times reported Thursday.

 

With 3:37 left in the fourth quarter and the Bucs leading 35-21, Colts placekicker Mike Vanderjagt's onside kick sailed airborne and was caught by Colts safety Idrees Bashir at the Indianapolis 42.

 

The Colts took advantage, driving 58 yards for a touchdown and eventually became the first team in league history to rally from 21 points behind in the final four minutes of regulation. They won 38-35 in overtime.

 

The league told the paper on Thursday that the error was not a mistake in judgement but the result of a lack of knowledge of the rule book.

 

Mike Pereira, the NFL's director of officiating, told the paper that the game's officials did not know Rule 10, Section 1, Article 4, which says that on that type of an onside kick, the receiving team must be given the chance to catch the ball if the ball does not touch the ground.

 

A kicking team is allowed to recover an onside kick providing the ball has traveled 10 yards and has hit the ground.

 

Vanderjagt's kick did not hit the ground, and so the Colts should have been penalized 15 yards from the spot of the foul for interfering with the Buc's right to catch the ball, the NFL told the paper.

 

That penalty would have given Tampa Bay the ball at the Indianapolis 27 yard line, the paper reported.

 

Pereira told the paper the play was not subject to review under the instant-replay rule.

 

Bucs coach Jon Gruden told the paper the team can't afford to look back whether an error was made or not.

 

"I don't know what you can do," Gruden told the paper. "There was a lot of screaming down there, and in the play that involved (defensive end) Simeon (Rice). (We were) trying to get them to look at the instant replay up there. Again, that game is over, I'm ready to get it out of here. I don't want to talk about it anymore."

 

"At the same time, with the officials, you understand that they have a very hard job to do," Gruden said. "Sometimes you wish there was no such thing as instant replay. All it does is prolong the agony."

Edited by CaptainHook
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