BrooklynCrew Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 Okay, so I'm in a 12 team local H2H league that's been running for almost a decade. About a month ago an owner submitted an illegal lineup (didn't start 3 wr's) because Sportsline lets you. In our league WR's and TE's are the same, but not in sportsline, so you can start from 0-5 of either postions (with 2 wildcards)... so you can not have 3 starting WR's and sportsline might still say it's okay... Anyway, we caught his illegal lineup, but he complained that the rules weren't written down (and they weren't) so he didn't get a zero, we swapped out his highest point guy for his lowest point wr on his bench... At that point the commish put all the league rules down in writing on the site. The written rules now do say an illegal lineup results in a zero.... ...okay, so the 4th seed with a team on a roll put in an illegal lineup this week. He only started 2 wr's and nobody noticed till I just did, moments ago. I'm the #1 seed and I'm gonna have to play him... But I just emailed everyone that he had an illegal lineup. If we go with the rules as written now, he gets a 0, and he'll miss the playoffs AND get blown out of the points race for money... essentially, he'll blow several hundred dollars of winnings. We let one owner slide for the same infraction a month ago, but now the rules are written down and very clear. It's a tough penalty... but it's also very clear. What would you lean towards doing? I know there's gonna be a league vote tomorrow... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauders11 Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 Okay, so I'm in a 12 team local H2H league that's been running for almost a decade. About a month ago an owner submitted an illegal lineup (didn't start 3 wr's) because Sportsline lets you. In our league WR's and TE's are the same, but not in sportsline, so you can start from 0-5 of either postions (with 2 wildcards)... so you can not have 3 starting WR's and sportsline might still say it's okay... Anyway, we caught his illegal lineup, but he complained that the rules weren't written down (and they weren't) so he didn't get a zero, we swapped out his highest point guy for his lowest point wr on his bench... At that point the commish put all the league rules down in writing on the site. The written rules now do say an illegal lineup results in a zero.... ...okay, so the 4th seed with a team on a roll put in an illegal lineup this week. He only started 2 wr's and nobody noticed till I just did, moments ago. I'm the #1 seed and I'm gonna have to play him... But I just emailed everyone that he had an illegal lineup. If we go with the rules as written now, he gets a 0, and he'll miss the playoffs AND get blown out of the points race for money... essentially, he'll blow several hundred dollars of winnings. We let one owner slide for the same infraction a month ago, but now the rules are written down and very clear. It's a tough penalty... but it's also very clear. What would you lean towards doing? I know there's gonna be a league vote tomorrow... 609643[/snapback] You should have never let that other guy slide, because now you really have no choice but to allow this one too. The precedent has been set.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 1. If you put in an illegal lineup on a purpose built FF web site, you're a royal dolt and should count yourself lucky mommy ever gives you any money in the first place. 2. The rules are written down - why go to all that trouble if, at the first infraction, you're not going to enforce them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooklynCrew Posted December 14, 2004 Author Share Posted December 14, 2004 You should have never let that other guy slide, because now you really have no choice but to allow this one too. The precedent has been set.... 609648[/snapback] yup, that's a point, but that guy's argument was 'the rules aren't written down'... (it's a league we've been playing for 10 years), EVERYBODY knows we have to start 3 wr's, he was using and out to avoid the punishment... anyway, the commish said fine, swapped players, and then emailed everyone that the rules had now been posted, and that there would be no more deviation... so now we got's a controversy... At the least the 4th seed owner MUST have his lineup altered cuz he scored big this week and he's in a tight points race for money... He can't win with an illegal lineup. At the worst he's f'd and out of both the playoffs and the points race. I literally don't know what I'd do as commish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooklynCrew Posted December 14, 2004 Author Share Posted December 14, 2004 (edited) 1. If you put in an illegal lineup on a purpose built FF web site, you're a royal dolt and should count yourself lucky mommy ever gives you any money in the first place. 2. The rules are written down - why go to all that trouble if, at the first infraction, you're not going to enforce them? 609651[/snapback] that's the problem, the rules were NOT written down a month ago, the commish hadn't posted them since we moved to sportsline (hence the first owner had a legitimate gripe, a technicality, but legitimate at the time)... but they are written down now SINCE that incident, and the commish emailed everyone when he posted them... Edited December 14, 2004 by BrooklynCrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 that's the problem, the rules were NOT written down a month ago, the commish hadn't posted them since we moved to sportsline... but they written down now SINCE that incident... 609660[/snapback] I thought you said they were written BEFORE the second incident? If so, the second incident needs to be enforced per the rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smithkt Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 I disagree with Marauders11 on this. You had to let the first team slide because the rules were not clearly written. At the time, the issue was addressed to the entire league and the rules were clarified for future application. Well, here you have your future application. Sucks for him, but rules are rules. How can someone make such a mistake after the issue had blown up once already. Just plain dumb. This should not even go to a vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooklynCrew Posted December 14, 2004 Author Share Posted December 14, 2004 I thought you said they were written BEFORE the second incident? If so, the second incident needs to be enforced per the rules. 609667[/snapback] yes, the rules are written down and clear now... which means the 4th seed gets screwed because he made a mistake... It's a tough pill to swallow for that guy, but I'm leaning that way on simple rule enforcement Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHook Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 Once the rules were written down, tough. He misses out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 I disagree with Marauders11 on this. You had to let the first team slide because the rules were not clearly written. At the time, the issue was addressed to the entire league and the rules were clarified for future application. Well, here you have your future application. Sucks for him, but rules are rules. How can someone make such a mistake after the issue had blown up once already. Just plain dumb. This should not even go to a vote. 609669[/snapback] Exactly - the rules were written precisely because of the first incident (which, IMO, the guy was lucky to get away with since the league is 10 years old), so the second incident is cut and dried. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 You should have never let that other guy slide, because now you really have no choice but to allow this one too. The precedent has been set.... 609648[/snapback] Interesting view, coming from you and the "intentions" that PAFFL seems to follow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgcoach Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 It's definitley a tough pill to swallow, and he's got a legit gripe. How do you change something 3/4 of the way through the season. Your commish didn't see fit to write the rules before just a few weeks ago. I think this guy has a legit gripe. Granted he's an idiot for doing what he did but, you've already let one team go; or switched out his high point total to low. So, that's exactly what this guy should get and move on to next year. Just make sure your rules are written AND ENFORCED next season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 I agree with the majority here -- the 4th seed should suffer for putting in an illegal lineup. Rules were posted. Commish notified everyone. Do this: 1. Enforce the rules as written, or someone else playing by the rules will get screwed. 2. Get off cbssportsline! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 2. Get off cbssportsline! 609684[/snapback] Amen to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunther Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 The first incident should have solidified this thought in the other owner's mind who didn't turn in a legal line up the second time. It was pointed out, rules were written and communicated. Now you need to go into Sportsline to set the active roster requirements. Setup -> League Rules -> click the Roster Limits link/tab. There is also an option to score zero points for any rosters that are illegal based on how you set this up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeachBum Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 It's definitley a tough pill to swallow, and he's got a legit gripe. How do you change something 3/4 of the way through the season. Your commish didn't see fit to write the rules before just a few weeks ago. I think this guy has a legit gripe. Granted he's an idiot for doing what he did but, you've already let one team go; or switched out his high point total to low. So, that's exactly what this guy should get and move on to next year. Just make sure your rules are written AND ENFORCED next season. 609679[/snapback] THIS is the correct approach. Do the same for this one as the last one, then NEXT YEAR make some serious rules! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgcoach Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 The first incident should have solidified this thought in the other owner's mind who didn't turn in a legal line up the second time. It was pointed out, rules were written and communicated. Now you need to go into Sportsline to set the active roster requirements. Setup -> League Rules -> click the Roster Limits link/tab. There is also an option to score zero points for any rosters that are illegal based on how you set this up. 609692[/snapback] I don't think it's a question of solidifying anything in anyones mind. This guy could have made a legit mistake and didn't notice it but, do you enforce a rule that came into question a couple weeks ago and rule one way, and now because there may or may not be a loophole rule the other way. It doesn't seem right to me, the punishment dealt out the first time should also be enforced the second. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHook Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 If everyone was aware of the previous owner's mistake, knew that the rules had been written down, then it is there fault. If you wrote down the rules and didn't give everyone a copy, then you'd have to let it slide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rellen13 Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 I disagree with most of the posts so far in this thread, and agree with jgcoach. If you didn't enforce the rules the first time this came up, and try to enforce them now, you are, in effect, changing the rules well after the season is under way. I've got two questions and the first may clear this up for me. 1: When the rules were written down, did every team acknowledge them and agree to play by the 'new' rules? 2: How much money are we talking about here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rock Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 I don't think it's a question of solidifying anything in anyones mind. This guy could have made a legit mistake and didn't notice it but, do you enforce a rule that came into question a couple weeks ago and rule one way, and now because there may or may not be a loophole rule the other way. It doesn't seem right to me, the punishment dealt out the first time should also be enforced the second. 609704[/snapback] I disagree. If you don't enforce the rule here, then you are all but stating that illegal lineups are okay. You could submit just about any lineup you want (why not start 6 QBs this week!) and say "oh, well the rules weren't written down, so I didn't know, and the other guy got away with it." BC, you'd be opening an entirely new can of worms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgcoach Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 I disagree. If you don't enforce the rule here, then you are all but stating that illegal lineups are okay. You could submit just about any lineup you want (why not start 6 QBs this week!) and say "oh, well the rules weren't written down, so I didn't know, and the other guy got away with it." BC, you'd be opening an entirely new can of worms. 609720[/snapback] I'm not disagreeing it shouldn't be enforced, it's the punishment I don't agree with. The same punishment that was dealt out the first time should be dealt out the second, reguardless of the rules being written down or not. You can't change something that far into the season and end someone's playoff run because of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cunning Runt Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 I am a commish and here's my 2 cents. First off - a zero is WAAAAY to harsh a penalty for an illegal lineup in any event. To me giving a zero implies intent where in most cases it's far more likely that a mistake was made - not a purposeful attempt to circumvent the rules. As such, we manually adjust the score after the fact to score the worst possible lineup at the position in question that the owner could have played anyway - but definitely do not penalize as severely as your league. In any event, I think you did set a precedent and that the owner should get the same benefit of the doubt as the first. It's pretty much a no-brainer to me. Next year is a different question entirely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunther Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 I don't think it's a question of solidifying anything in anyones mind. This guy could have made a legit mistake and didn't notice it but, do you enforce a rule that came into question a couple weeks ago and rule one way, and now because there may or may not be a loophole rule the other way. It doesn't seem right to me, the punishment dealt out the first time should also be enforced the second. 609704[/snapback] We have not changed rules mid-season in the league I'm in. Tough to say what our league would have done in this situation, but I would like to think we would chalk it up as "lesson learned" and waited until the next season to clarify and added it to the league rules. The only issue I have with all of this is that, in the OP's league, the rules were clarified and written in response to the first time it was broken. Taking the steps to avoid this the rest of this season. Please do not get me wrong, jgcoach, you bring up a solid argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgcoach Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 I'm just putting myself in the other guys shoes but, hopefully I don't ever get that stupid. Just writting what I think would be right IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chester Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 Sometimes rules need to be changed mid-season to be ennacted immediately. It appears so in this case. The rule was changed and applied to THIS SEASON. The second team understood the rule and broke it. That team should pay the penalty. Some of you are suggesting that the most recent infraction should not incur the same penalty as the first one (before the rules were put in place). Would you have the same opinion if the team involved was the same team as the first time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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