Menudo Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 Not everyone. See my above post. I couldn't agree with you more. Roethlisberger. Hands down. 625113[/snapback] Didn't see that before I posted. Good stuff. I certainly hope that your Colts have to play the Patriots first. The playoffs are tough no matter who you play, but I would love it if the Steelers could avoid the Colts and have the Pats and Colts battle it out and then play the Steelers at Heinz. Tough task to beat the Pats and Colts on the road in the cold, but Peyton is scary. No doubt about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crispirons Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 big clayton fan as i drafted him in the second round of a rookie draft. big roth fan as i am a steeler homer. roth is more deserving imo. both players were thrust into starting roles and thrived. give them both credit for that. yes, the steelers oline rocks, and the defense is one of the best in the league. rothy just seems so poised for a rook. uncanny. i can't see him not getting it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boat_hacked Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 Roethlisberger: 182/276; 2400 yards; 65.9%; 15 TD; 10 INT; 1 rushing TDClayton: 74 catches; 1041 yards; 4 TD Not bad for a rook. QB or WR but what gets me is some out there act like Roth is the second coming of god. Thrust Eli into that situation and a few Manning homers would be blubbering idiots. Pitt's avg for rushing plays- 63% NFL avg- 46.7% only 6 other teams avg. in the 50%. I feel too many overlook how Cowher & Co. minimize Roth's chances to give the game away by running it. IMO that doesn't take much QB leadership. If the play calling was reversed to 63% passing plays and Roth still had the 12-0 as a starter, then I'd fully endorse ROY to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menudo Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 Not bad for a rook. QB or WR but what gets me is some out there act like Roth is the second coming of god. Thrust Eli into that situation and a few Manning homers would be blubbering idiots. Pitt's avg for rushing plays- 63% NFL avg- 46.7% only 6 other teams avg. in the 50%. I feel too many overlook how Cowher & Co. minimize Roth's chances to give the game away by running it. IMO that doesn't take much QB leadership. If the play calling was reversed to 63% passing plays and Roth still had the 12-0 as a starter, then I'd fully endorse ROY to him. 625293[/snapback] But it works both ways. The fact that he hasn't had to step up and throw all the time makes many minimize his accomplishments. He had to throw this week and he threw for 315. He has had to win in the 4th Quarter 4 times now, and he did so each time, throwing a lot. He has the 2nd best 4th Quarter rating in the NFL. He comes through with the big plays when they are needed and he minimizes his mistakes. Fact is some are giving him too much credit, but just as many aren't giving him enough credit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squeegiebo Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 Ben is to the Steelers what Brady is to the Patriots - neither deserves the bulk of the credit for their teams' success, both are solid, do what they have to to win, and do not make errors that cause their respective teams to lose.* I don't think Ben deserves rookie of the year any more than Brady deserved the Superbowl MVPs. *Except Brady in the Miami game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patsfan04 Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 (edited) This is not MVP, if you want to push Ben for the MVP, that is fine, because he is very valuable to his team. Last year, the MVP went to Manning/McNair, and Brady was 3rd. Offensive Player of the year went to Jamal Lewis, with Ladainian 2nd, the rest were: 3rd Manning 4th P. Holmes 5th McNair 6th Duece M. 7th T. Holt Why no Brady? Because while he is very valuable to his team, he doesn't have the standout offensive/fantasy numbers to get recognition for the Offensive Player of the Year. Sound familiar? I think same applies here. If there was a MVR, a most valuable rookie award, it goes to Ben, hands down. But there isn't. Edited December 22, 2004 by Patsfan04 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msaint Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 Look, I'm obviously a Brady fan, but I've never claimed (a la Tuna) that's he's the second coming....BUT, I simply can no longer stand the uninformed, jealous, myopic, misdirected Brady-bashing that goes on around here. So, I tried a little experiment below with your earlier post, Menudo – not that you were bashing Brady, but just because the Big Ben praise sounded eeeeerily familiar – substituting "Brady" for "Rothlisberger" and swapping out other stat basics. This is just a little message to all the anti-Brady bashers from that other (successful) fishing expedition by keggerz.....and whaddya know! Seems like you could make the exact same arguments for why Brady deserves the accolades he gets as you could for Big Ben's accolades. In other words, I don't want to hear one more friggin' Steeler fan bashing Brady for possessing the exact same atrributes for which they praise their precious Rookie of the Year. The Rothlisberger stuff really cracks me up. It is as if no one wants to fully give him the credit that he deserves. I don't even think that it is a question that he is the rookie of the year. If you don't think that he is a HUGE, HUGE, HUGE reason that the Steelers are where they are then you just haven't been watching their games. They do have him in a safe situation. They run the ball well, the play good defense, but Roethlisberger has been amazing. His 4th Quarter passer rating is 2nd in the NFL and his 3rd down numbers are amazing. He doesn't force the ball often (He did twice last week though), he plays intelligently, and has shown poise 4 times in games that came down to the wire. The guy is 12-0 as a starter and it is as if everyone is reluctant to give him the credit that he deserves. Everyone talks about his pass yards not being impressive, his attempts not being impressive, but the fact is he hasn't had to have huge passing games. The only high scoring game he was in was this week and he threw for 315. I don't care if people want to admit it or not, this kid's got "it". He's got composure, physical ability, a strong and accurate arm, good running ability and athleticism, and a lot of class. Add to that the fact that he is 12-0 and 22 years old and regardless of what happens this year, this Steeler fan is thrilled that Big Ben is in Pittsburgh. Clayton is the "fantasy" rookie of the year, but Big Ben is EASILY the NFL rookie of the year. The Brady stuff really cracks me up. It is as if no one wants to fully give him the credit that he deserves. I don't even think that it is a question that he deserves all the praise he gets. If you don't think that he is a HUGE, HUGE, HUGE reason that the Pats are where they are then you just haven't been watching their games. They do have him in a safe situation. They run the ball well, the play good defense, but Brady has been amazing. He's the NFL’s all-time leader in overtime wins without a defeat, recording a perfect 7-0 mark in overtime in his career. Terry Bradshaw is the only other quarterback to be undefeated in at least five overtime games, posting a 5-0 record. Brady owns the Super Bowl record for pass completions in a game, connecting on 32 passes in Super Bowl XXXVIII. He has orchestrated 15 game-winning drives to break a tie or take the lead in the fourth quarter or overtime. Four of his game-winning efforts have come in the postseason, where he has played in just six games. He has recorded 16 passer ratings over 100.0 in his career, and the Patriots are a perfect 16-0 in those games. He has a career record of 28-4 (.875) in games played after November 1, and a perfect 11-0 mark after November 1 in the 2003 season. He doesn't force the ball often (He did twice last week though against Miami), he plays intelligently, and has shown poise countless times in games that came down to the wire. The guy is 52-14 as a starter and it is as if everyone is reluctant to give him the credit that he deserves. Everyone talks about his pass yards not being impressive, his attempts not being impressive, but the fact is he hasn't had to have huge passing games...I don't care if people want to admit it or not, this kid's got "it". He's got composure, physical ability, a strong and accurate arm, decent running ability and highly underratedathleticism, and a lot of class....regardless of what happens this year, this Patriot fan is thrilled that Brady is in NE. Peyton, Daunte, McNabb, hell, even Volek down the stretch is the "fantasy" MVP, but Brady is EASILY the NFL...well, I won't go so far as to say he's the MVP this season, but you get the idea by now... 625108[/snapback] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimm74 Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 Umm, we're talking Rookie of the Year. NOT Fantasy Rookie of the Year. Roethlisberger: 182/276; 2400 yards; 65.9%; 15 TD; 10 INT; 1 rushing TD Clayton: 74 catches; 1041 yards; 4 TD Roethlisberger helped the Steelers to a 12-0 record and #1 seed in the super tough AFC. I cannot believe that anyone would even consider Clayton. It is not even close. Remember this the next time people are blasting Manning. 625052[/snapback] I agree 100%. A rookie who is 12-0 and going does not deserve to be ROY??? One who has lead the Steelers to their longest winning streak in team history. The best team record in team history...I know if T Max was QB they would not be were they are....WHAT am I missing?? Ben has proved he can win in every situation. He is the one who beat the Giants not the Steel D Anyone with any football insight would vote Ben, and I will put down a pay check on this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh 0ne Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 This is just a little message to all the anti-Brady bashers from that other (successful) fishing expedition by keggerz.....and whaddya know! Seems like you could make the exact same arguments for why Brady deserves the accolades he gets as you could for Big Ben's accolades. In other words, I don't want to hear one more friggin' Steeler fan bashing Brady for possessing the exact same atrributes for which they praise their precious Rookie of the Year. 625415[/snapback] Wow, nice work msaint. You're taking this quite serious. A few points. If you Pats fans would stop (and I know you're one of the more level minded ones) literally calling Brady one of the best QB's ever, people like myself wouldn't constantly bash Brady when making counter arguments. Also, I don't think any sane person could argue with the point you make above regarding the comparison between Brady and Big Ben. IMO, they are extremely similar. You will obviously have to take what Steeler fans say about Big Ben with a grain of salt, as they are blinded by homerism when it comes to him just like Pats fans are when it comes to Brady. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1stimer Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 The Roethlisberger stuff really cracks me up. It is as if no one wants to fully give him the credit that he deserves. I don't even think that it is a question that he is the rookie of the year. If you don't think that he is a HUGE, HUGE, HUGE reason that the Steelers are where they are then you just haven't been watching their games. 625108[/snapback] Agreed. If Maddox were in there the Steelers would have lost probably at least another 4 games so far maybe more. You can say well it is the team around him. How good would Brady have been behind a Browns OL or with a IND D??? You can't downplay a guy who is in the leadership position on offense just because he has some talent around him. As for the not passing more than 20 times in some games. Since when does the number of throws make someone a stud. Last time I checked, it is not always the QB who is making the play calls. So the Steelers know how to use the clock and work the ball ... why is that such a bad thing? And last but not least. Menudo hit it big when he said that Ben does not get "the credit he deserves". This whole year he has been playing and people have been saying things like ... He's a rookie, he will have his "rookie" type of game ... Never has a rookie QB beat a Bill B New England team ... They just beat the Pats last week so they can't beat McNabb and the Eagles this week ... people have constantly been saying he is going to screw up and cost the Steelers a game. Even when he threw a couple of picks last week he still was able to find a way to win. Done he have help on both sides of the ball, yes but I don't see why his good fortune should be used against him. Especially when he has been proving everybody wrong who was casting doubt on him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolv Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 Ben and Clayton should be the only considerations for ROY. I'll give the edge to Clayton - its harder to be consistent at the WR position than it is to be at the QB position. Just my opinion. Don't hate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menudo Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 Look, I'm obviously a Brady fan, but I've never claimed (a la Tuna) that's he's the second coming....BUT, I simply can no longer stand the uninformed, jealous, myopic, misdirected Brady-bashing that goes on around here. So, I tried a little experiment below with your earlier post, Menudo – not that you were bashing Brady, but just because the Big Ben praise sounded eeeeerily familiar – substituting "Brady" for "Rothlisberger" and swapping out other stat basics. This is just a little message to all the anti-Brady bashers from that other (successful) fishing expedition by keggerz.....and whaddya know! Seems like you could make the exact same arguments for why Brady deserves the accolades he gets as you could for Big Ben's accolades. In other words, I don't want to hear one more friggin' Steeler fan bashing Brady for possessing the exact same atrributes for which they praise their precious Rookie of the Year. 625415[/snapback] I know you weren't pointing your finger at me on this, but I just want to make clear that you will never find a post by me ripping Tom Brady, because I think he is a great QB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh 0ne Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 As for the not passing more than 20 times in some games. Since when does the number of throws make someone a stud. Last time I checked, it is not always the QB who is making the play calls.625429[/snapback] No, but can certainly be argued that plays are called to fit a QB's capability. Add to the fact that you have the number 1 ranked defense and number 3 ranked running game, it's quite obvious why Big Ben is not throwing 40 times a game. Even Bill Cowher is smart enough to figure that one out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vote Quimby2 Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 Lee Evans probably deserves a mention. Kid has been on fire for the second half of the season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msaint Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 I know you weren't pointing your finger at me on this, but I just want to make clear that you will never find a post by me ripping Tom Brady, because I think he is a great QB. 625489[/snapback] Oh, I know ...that's why I wanted to point that out, to make sure you knew I was only using your Ben-related quote to make a point about Brady, not as a rebuttal to any perceived Brady-bashing post on your part. And, Hugh, I know that most of the anti-Brady stuff has been flamed by the couple of (well, one...tuna) Pats fans who are a little too blinded by homerism 'round these parts. I've always stood by the fact that there may be more overall talented QBs in the league – peyton, donovan, daunte, vick, favre, etc – but there's simple no other QB I'd rather have for this Pats team, much in the way Big Ben is becoming the image for/embodiment of the Steelers, Favre for the Pack, etc. (though the player on the Steelers I've always admired most is Ward, and you gotta love the Bus). And, I also happen to think that Brady is vastly underrated as an athlete (he and, believe it or not, Tom Tupa were always the best hoops players on the Pats) and as a "skill player," despite having been stamped with the "he just manages the game w/in the Pats infallible system and does enough NOT to lose" tag, which is true to an extent, but not to the extent that many around here believe. So, I guess what I'm saying is, I'm a huuuge Brady fan and love what he's done for the Pats, and will never feel like we're out of a game even with no timeouts, down 3, 37 seconds left, starting on our own 5 yard line. But unlike some, I also don't believe he (or the Pats system, as proven in Miami) is infallible, and any failures oln his part deserve an excuse. It's just part of the NFL. These guys are all stellar pro athletes, and you can't win/succeed every time out...though it only seems like Brady does due to all the gaudy bling-bling on his fingers. (That last one was just to keep fannning the anti-Pats flames .....) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilwoman Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 Roeth, hands down I agree with Captain. If you took Roeth out of the Pits equation you would not have 11 wins in a row. Yeah Clayton had a great season, but you take him out of the equation in TB and nothing changes much. This guy has made this team gel...for whatever reason. And because he has not done anything to actually loose a game and has done everything to get his guys to believe and win, he has to be IMO ROY!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaterMan Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 I see Ben getting it only because he is a QB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squeegiebo Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 I am a Brady basher and a Steelers fan. As I indicated above, I think both Brady and Roethlisberger are overrated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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