Sgt. Ryan Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 (edited) I tend to think that the dynasty years were the exception, which is why I'm proud of the accomplishments, and don't worry about team payroll so much. It was a tremendous run, sparked by the core group of players that came through the Yankee system. More recently, they've been going back the 80's version of getting players from outside the system, trading away their talent, backloading contracts so that in years to come they'll be on the hook for a lot of cash for few players. If I wasn't a Yankee fan, I'd be extremely pleased at what the Yankees are doing, because they are going to be in for a lot of trouble when the bigger part of some of these contracts are coming due. The window is closing on this group, and I'd be very happy, the field couldn't be more level. I guess we aren't disagreeing that the payroll leads to an advantage. I guess the disagreement is based on how much of an advantage that is. I happen to think its tremendously overrated, and others don't. There seems to be enough facts on both sides to point to... 821098[/snapback] If there was a cap, The Yanks could have never afforded Arod, Sheffield, Unit or K Brown for that matter after they threw all their money at Giambi. Most teams cant sign players like this after they give Giambi 160 mil. If there was a cap, the Yanks still would have signed Giambi, but wouldnt have Arod, Sheff, Unit and this team would be in 3rd place in the division. Oh wait, their in 3rd place in the division with these guys. Personally I think the Yanks had a great farm system at one time, Rivera, Jeter, Bernie, Posada as the core in their prime are as good as any I can remember in a long long time. But that is a once in a(multiple generations) core that isnt repeated often. The Yanks were fortunate there, but George is turning the Yanks into a laughing stock even when they make the playoffs the payroll is so obscene thats all people talk about. If money wasnt a factor and their was a 100 mil Sal cap, Mussina would be in Balt, Giambi would be in Oak, Arod would be in Seattle, Matsui in Japan, Sheffield in Atl or Fla, Pavano in Fla, Unit in Arz, and K Brown in LA, not in NY as the new core of this team. So the cap, or lack there of is the only reason NY isnt the Royals or Pirates. Edited May 25, 2005 by Sgt. Ryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LegFuJohnson Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 And Beltran would be with the Royals, and Manny would be in Cleveland, Vlad would be in Washington, you can go on and on. But it sounds like you are agreeing with me. The Yankees didn't buy their titles. They won with their "once in a (multiple generations) core". Since then, they've added players and no titles. Doesn't seem that a cap is needed then, does it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balzac Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 And Beltran would be with the Royals, and Manny would be in Cleveland, Vlad would be in Washington, you can go on and on.But it sounds like you are agreeing with me. The Yankees didn't buy their titles. They won with their "once in a (multiple generations) core". Since then, they've added players and no titles. Doesn't seem that a cap is needed then, does it? 821606[/snapback] You're focusing solely on the titles again. The Yanks are at the top of the heap every year, in large part, because they spend so much money on their talent. That's why a cap is needed - well, not needed, but I would prefer it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LegFuJohnson Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 (edited) I'm focusing on the titles, because that's what seems to matter. The Braves won how many division crowns in a row? 13? 14? Their spending was at or near the top of the NL, wasn't it? But no one complained, because they only won the World Series once. Edited May 25, 2005 by LegFuJohnson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackshi17 Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 Farm system has produced two starters this year Robinson Cano and Chien-Ming Wang. The other players developed by the farm system, Jeter, Posada, Williams and Rivera, are still playing. I don't understand how you can state that the farm system isn't producing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balzac Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 I'm focusing on the titles, because that's what seems to matter. The Braves won how many division crowns in a row? 13? 14? Their spending was at or near the top of the NL, wasn't it? But no one complained, because they only won the World Series once. 822148[/snapback] If that's what seems to matter, why are people still complaining about the Yanks' payroll when they haven't won a title in 5 years? Braves have been in and out of the top 5 payrolls in baseball over the last 15 years, but never higher than 3rd. Quite a contrast from the highest (and by a huge margin of late) year in and year out. Don't hate on the Braves simply b/c they are truly "America's Team." But seriously, the Braves have simply managed their team and talent extremely well over that span - unlike the Yanks, they've let a huge amount of talent go b/c they couldn't afford to resign them . . . they've just been able to replace them from within and through smart deals. They haven't thrown money at every problem. Also, it doesn't hurt that they've played in the NL East. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LegFuJohnson Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 If that's what seems to matter, why are people still complaining about the Yanks' payroll when they haven't won a title in 5 years? 823497[/snapback] I wish I knew. I figure jealousy mostly. One time I was having a similar discussion with someone, and I said "The Yanks haven't won since 2000, it's not like they win every year". His response was "Sure seems like it". People have short memories when they want to. That's the whole point of (most of) my arguing. When I hear that the Yankees did nothing but "buy their titles", I assume people mean the World Series titles, not the division titles. Perhaps I'm mistaken in that assumption. Do you think the Angels will be accused of buying this years (and future) AL West titles, because they've outspent the division the last couple of years? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balzac Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 Do you think the Angels will be accused of buying this years (and future) AL West titles, because they've outspent the division the last couple of years? 823687[/snapback] Possibly, thought I think most of the anti-Yanks sentiment comes from the fact that they have been so grossly outspending the rest of MLB in recent years. I doubt anyone even really looks at the division-specific payrolls. The way I see it, the Angels are a big market team so they spend a good amount more than others - but the Yanks take it to a different level. Have any teams really been hit with the luxury tax other than the Yanks? I haven't looked into this at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LegFuJohnson Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 No, the Yankee tax (I mean luxury tax) was put in at a high enough level (the players union is too strong, can't argue that), that really no one else has been hit. The Sox and Mets might have been tagged for a little. But no one is really going to accuse the Angels of overspending. No one worries about division specific payrolls, because in the grand scheme (not year to year), division titles aren't specifically remembered. When you said the Yankees buy titles, were you really referring to the divisional titles? People worry about payroll because it's there. If the Yankees hadn't won those titles from 1996-2000, payroll would hardly be a talked about issue. If Jeter and A-Rod and Sheffield all had season ending injuries, the Yankees wouldn't be favored, yet they'd still have the highest payroll. And if they managed to win in spite of those injuries, people wouldn't give credit to the other players for stepping up, they'd say its a good thing the Yankees have the resources to overcome those injuries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balzac Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 When you said the Yankees buy titles, were you really referring to the divisional titles? 823987[/snapback] I don't think I ever said that. They buy success - I agree with that, but I don't recall ever saying that they bought titles. I noticed that you've been mentioning the "buying titles" phrase quite a bit, but I'm not sure where it came from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LegFuJohnson Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 (edited) That phrase has been thrown about a lot (by myself included) Lots of people think that the Yankees just bought their titles. I'm not searching the whole thread, its quite possible that you didn't put those two words together. You did say that while the players may deserve credit for the titles, the organization doesn't. You've also said that the fans perhaps shouldn't be proud of the accomplishments. One might infer that you think they bought their titles. But if you don't think the Yankees bought their titles, that's good to hear. Edited May 26, 2005 by LegFuJohnson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackshi17 Posted May 27, 2005 Share Posted May 27, 2005 Don't look now but the Yankees just passed the Sox and are 4 1/2 behind the O's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Sanchez Posted May 27, 2005 Share Posted May 27, 2005 Don't look now but the Yankees just passed the Sox and are 4 1/2 behind the O's. 824319[/snapback] We owe it all to Rovers!! Whenever he starts running smack on a team, they usually end up doing much better. Thanks Rov! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broncosn05 Posted May 27, 2005 Share Posted May 27, 2005 I traded RJ for nothing special this wil lbe interesting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balzac Posted May 27, 2005 Share Posted May 27, 2005 That phrase has been thrown about a lot (by myself included) Lots of people think that the Yankees just bought their titles. I'm not searching the whole thread, its quite possible that you didn't put those two words together. You did say that while the players may deserve credit for the titles, the organization doesn't. You've also said that the fans perhaps shouldn't be proud of the accomplishments. One might infer that you think they bought their titles. But if you don't think the Yankees bought their titles, that's good to hear. 824099[/snapback] You know what happens when you infer? You make an inf out of e and r. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicCEO Posted May 27, 2005 Share Posted May 27, 2005 Did anyone watch SNL last weekend? The episode sucked, but the only thing that made me laugh out loud was a sketch of a bunch of NYC mobsters, and one of their girlfriends started yelling a smashing stuff on the ground... "No, not the picture of Bobby Deniro!!" "No! Not the picture of Frank Sinatra! "Jason Giambi! well... ok... you can do that one..." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Men In Tights Posted May 27, 2005 Share Posted May 27, 2005 I have read through this thread periodically and need to chime in on the payroll issue. I am a Milwaukee Brewer fan and am jealous of all the money Big Stein can throw around because my beloved Brewers can only dream of spending that type of money. Crap, A-Rod was almost the Brewers entire payroll a couple years back. I cannot stand A-Rod and want to see him drag teams down like he has in the past. With the above said, here is my issue with the payroll. Big Stein can afford to make mistakes other clubs cannot. He can go out and buy himself a super-sub/playoff run type of stud that smaller market teams cannot. He can make a mistake by overpaying for someone that other teams cannot. That is the big difference, someone goes on the DL Stein buys someone else, in that same situation in Milwaukee we are screwed and have to hope someone from the minors is ready for a major role. So, I am all for teams spending what they want, but then lets take it a step farther and set up divisions where like payroll teams play against like payroll teams. Just MHO. While I will agree the Yankees didn't buy a championship, like the Marlins did years back, their money has helped them make the playoffs year after year. That is what fans like me are tired of, the same old teams in the playoffs every year. I believe that is why teams like the Twins and A's get so much support because they are winning with a low payroll and everyone outside of Atlanta, NY, and Boston are rooting for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balzac Posted May 27, 2005 Share Posted May 27, 2005 I have read through this thread periodically and need to chime in on the payroll issue. I am a Milwaukee Brewer fan and am jealous of all the money Big Stein can throw around because my beloved Brewers can only dream of spending that type of money. Crap, A-Rod was almost the Brewers entire payroll a couple years back. I cannot stand A-Rod and want to see him drag teams down like he has in the past. With the above said, here is my issue with the payroll. Big Stein can afford to make mistakes other clubs cannot. He can go out and buy himself a super-sub/playoff run type of stud that smaller market teams cannot. He can make a mistake by overpaying for someone that other teams cannot. That is the big difference, someone goes on the DL Stein buys someone else, in that same situation in Milwaukee we are screwed and have to hope someone from the minors is ready for a major role. So, I am all for teams spending what they want, but then lets take it a step farther and set up divisions where like payroll teams play against like payroll teams. Just MHO. While I will agree the Yankees didn't buy a championship, like the Marlins did years back, their money has helped them make the playoffs year after year. That is what fans like me are tired of, the same old teams in the playoffs every year. I believe that is why teams like the Twins and A's get so much support because they are winning with a low payroll and everyone outside of Atlanta, NY, and Boston are rooting for them. 824660[/snapback] What he said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LegFuJohnson Posted May 28, 2005 Share Posted May 28, 2005 At least you've finally admitted that its jealousy. Where's all the extra revenue from the new ballpark? What do they do with the money that they get from the Yankees each year? Wasn't there a big fuss in Milwaukee that the taxpayers approved the new stadium, then the payroll got reduced? Wasn't there talks of a lawsuit? See, a team like Milwaukee... they don't have to worry about what the Yankees are doing, so what if the Yankees are in the playoffs every year, that doesn't affect the Brewers chances. And I don't think anyone has disagreed with the notion that the high payroll helps. I think the disagreement is with the how much. Do the Twins and A's get a lot of support? I don't know if they do. They absolutely should, they deserve it. I'm rooting for them. With every pennant race appearance they make, it helps the low side of "how much does payroll matter". And with tonights win, the Yankees winning percentage is now above .560, so Balzac can now be impressed. Hope everyone has a safe weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broncosn05 Posted May 28, 2005 Share Posted May 28, 2005 Man I can't believe Renteria is struggling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balzac Posted May 29, 2005 Share Posted May 29, 2005 If they continue winning and get up around .560-.570 ball for the rest of the year, I'll be impressed and will gladly eat my words on this. 817886[/snapback] It's barely June - there are lots of ups and downs to a season and the Yanks are about due for a down streak. Jealousy of a team and jealousy of the money that funds them are quite different. One can be jealous of the money that someone has, yet not at all jealous of the person overall (e.g. because of the way that they spend it, etc.). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackshi17 Posted May 30, 2005 Share Posted May 30, 2005 Going to Kansas City Kansas City here I come... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broncosn05 Posted May 30, 2005 Share Posted May 30, 2005 Wow that 17-1 game makes me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rovers Posted June 25, 2005 Author Share Posted June 25, 2005 Lost 3 out of 4 to the lowly Tampa Bay team.... and now dropped game 1 of the weekend series to the lowly Metsies! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicCEO Posted June 25, 2005 Share Posted June 25, 2005 5 in a row... and Schilling is not even back yet. Yankees only 5.5 back with 100 to go? I'm not counting the money just yet... but I must say, I like to watch the Sox win! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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