So it's Vick's fault Price sucks?

[Bill Swerski]

I think Vick is a incredible athlete and could possibly be a good/great QB one day.  The fact of the matter is that he is not a very good QB right now. 

 

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Agreed. He does a good job of scrambling out of the pocket on broken plays and does a decent job of keeping (some) opposing defenses off balance... but he can't throw the ball for crap. If you can't effectively pass the ball, you're not an elite QB... hell, you're not even a good QB. I realize that Vick was in his first year of learning the WCO, but 2313 yds, a 56% completion percentage, 14 TDs, and 12 INTs are awful numbers for a #1 pick with four seasons of NFL experience. He may very well become the next Steve Young in a few years, but he's not even close at this point.

 

WaterBoy's "it's Price's fault" defense is ridiculous. Good QBs get production out of mediocre WRs. Trent Green got 1086 yds and 8 TDs out of Eddie Kennison last year. McNabb got 833 yds and 8 TDs out of James Thrash in '01. That same year, Favre got 918 yds and 9 TDs out of Bill Schroeder (and 1081 yds, 5 TDs in '99). Hell, Manning, in his rookie year, got 681 yds and 7 TDs out of Torrence Small (who ?). And I don't need to tell anyone what he got out of Stokley (who wasn't even good enough to play on the Ravens) this past season.

 

Peerless Price lead Atlanta's WRs with a measley 575 yds and 3 TDs last year. That's just pathetic. Price may not be a good #1 wideout, but his numbers in Buffalo while playing with Flutie/Johnson/VanPelt were much better. And they were flat-out studly after Bledsoe came to town. Hell, he had 19 more receptions and 263 more yards while playing with Doug Johnson and Kurt freakin' Kittner in '03.

 

Sorry, WaterBoy. It's Vick's fault that Vick sucks.

[Bill Swerski]

Let's not forget about all those little passes to the RB. Before Owens I am assuming a RB led the Iggles in receptions.  Much easier to complete a swing pass to a RB than any pass to a WR.

 

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It's also much easier to complete passes in climate-controlled dome than it is outdoors in November-January in Philly. I have yet to see Vick complete a playoff-game-saving 4th-and-26 pass in the Georgia Dome, much less in the conditions in which McNabb has done it.

 

BTW, Warrick Dunn was 2nd on the team in receptions (50, close to Finneran's 56) under Vick in '02. In '01, Duce Staley tied James Thrash for the team lead in receptions (63).

[Clubfoothead]

Amazing that a post can make it at least two pages when the first f'n reply is the correct answer. :

 

I honestly think it's a combination of the following three things;

 

#1) New offensive system last year.

 

#2) Price not being able to handle the Defensive attention that a #1 WR receives.

 

#3) Vick being an erratic passer.

 

Not necessarily in that order.

 

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Some people like Vick some don't. I don't but you change the above to:

 

#1) Vick being an erratic passer.

 

#2) Price not being able to handle the Defensive attention that a #1 WR receives.

 

#3) New offensive system last year.

 

and you've got my take.

[WaterMan]

So even before Owens, McNabb had a higher completion percentage then Vick.

 

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He should, being in the WCO his entire life.

[Bill Swerski]

He should, being in the WCO his entire life.

 

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Wow, the excuses never stop. Does Ron Mexico's genital herpes also inhibit his ability to throw to his WRs?

[alexgaddis]

I would think having a case of genital herpes WOULD inhibit a passers ability to throw the ball accurately...

 

also, maybe Price didn't wan't to catch the balls from Vick thinking he might inadvertantly get "the Herpes" from Vick touching the ball...

 

hmmmm....

[phenom]

I think everyone is missing the point is that Waterman stated it's not Vicks fault that Price sucks.

 

When your #1 (not #2 or #3 WR Swerski) is not capable of beating man coverage or double teams it affects the production of the offense. Price has evidently shown that he might not be a great or even average WR. Now with Jenkins possibly taking his job we'll see. I think this year Vick should improve more in the passing game and if he doesn't then he should get more criticism. But to expect Vick to be Steve Young after 1 year in the system is dumb. No other words for it.

 

 

The offensive line is average at best. When people say they had a potent rushing attack why don't you take out Vicks rushing totals and see how potent that attack really was. A 1/3 of their rushing totals was Vick taking off on bootlegs or busted plays not exactly indicative of a top notch O-line.

 

 

Also I see that a inordianate amount of Packer fans are haters of Vick. I wonder if it's because of that playoff victory in Lambeau. I can't think of one other team that appears to have more members challenging his abilities................

Edited June 20, 2005 by phenom

[Men In Tights]

It's also much easier to complete passes in climate-controlled dome than it is outdoors in November-January in Philly.  I have yet to see Vick complete a playoff-game-saving 4th-and-26 pass in the Georgia Dome, much less in the conditions in which McNabb has done it.

 

BTW, Warrick Dunn was 2nd on the team in receptions (50, close to Finneran's 56) under Vick in '02.  In '01, Duce Staley tied James Thrash for the team lead in receptions (63).

 

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Very true about the dome. and the Falcons, or anyone else for that matter probably won't complete a 4th and 26 unless it is against the Packers. :doah: Yes we are still talking about that here in Wisconsin. For all you Vikings fans if you want to see what type of a Safety Sharper is really watch that replay and see how he is still backpedaling while the ball is in the air.

 

Sorry to go off on a tangent, but the west coast O does use the RB's and TE's and that will increase those QB's passer ratings.

[Bill Swerski]

I think everyone is missing the point is that Waterman stated it's not Vicks fault that Price sucks.

 

 

No, everyone is sick of WaterTool blaming Price for Vick's inability to throw to WRs. Price may not be a legitimate #1 wideout but, as I said before, good QBs get production out of WRs who have no business being #1 on the depth chart.

 

When your #1 (not #2 or #3 WR Swerski) is not capable of beating man coverage or double teams it affects the production of the offense.

 

So, how would you explain McNabb thriving in four of the first five years of his career without a legitimate #1 WR? How is it that James Thrash, Todd Pinkston, Freddie Mitchell, and Torrance Small all put up significantly better numbers at one point or another under McNabb than Price (who thrived for years as a #2 in Buffalo under several crappy QBs) did under Vick?

 

The offensive line is average at best. When people say they had a potent rushing attack why don't you take out Vicks rushing totals and see how potent that attack really was. A 1/3 of their rushing totals was Vick taking off on bootlegs or busted plays not exactly indicative of a top notch O-line.

 

Duckett and Dunn combined for over 1,600 yds rushing and 17 TDs, averaging 4.6 yds/carry. Average O-line, my ass. Also consider that Vick plays in a dome and opposing defenses usually take a LB out of coverage to "spy" him. Both factors worked in favor of Atlanta's passing game, yet Vick didn't deliver.

Edited June 20, 2005 by Bill Swerski

[Big Score 1]

Sorry to go off on a tangent, but the west coast O does use the RB's and TE's and that will increase those QB's passer ratings.

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You know Men In Tights, I thought the exact same thing about the RB's being heavily used in the passing game in the WCO. In one league I'm in I got Dunn in the 4th or 5th round last year, figuring on some decent receiving numbers from him.

 

For whatever reason, Mora Jr's WCO didn't call for the RB in the passing game all that much.

 

I was actually pretty surprised how little Dunn was utilized. Especially considering that he's got pretty decent hands for a RB and is great at getting YAC.

[Men In Tights]

I think part of the problem with Vick is how quickly he puts the ball down and starts running/scrambling. I believe CPep and McNabb did that early in their career as well. Once Vick learns how to 'feel' pressure and not be so quick to run and give up on his WR's you will see his passing numbers improve regardless of who he is throwing to.

[NAUgrad]

Duckett and Dunn combined for over 1,600 yds rushing and 17 TDs, averaging 4.6 yds/carry.  Average O-line, my ass.  Also consider that Vick plays in a dome and opposing defenses usually take a LB out of coverage to "spy" him.  Both factors worked in favor of Atlanta's passing game, yet Vick didn't deliver.

 

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No doubt that Vick is not the passer he could be. Has a cannon for an arm, but not that accurate. I think he'll get better over time.

 

I also think, however, that the running game did well last year in large part because of Vick. As you mentioned, a LB or even a safety is required to shadow him in case he runs out of the pocket. Because of this, LB's or safety's have to play in different positions just to keep track of him. This should actually help his passing numbers, which obviously it hasen't, but certainly helps the running game.

[Bill Swerski]

I also think, however, that the running game did well last year in large part because of Vick.  As you mentioned, a LB or even a safety is required to shadow him in case he runs out of the pocket.  Because of this, LB's or safety's have to play in different positions just to keep track of him.  This should actually help his passing numbers, which obviously it hasen't, but certainly helps the running game.

 

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Perhaps I'm reading this incorrectly, but I don't see how taking a LB or safety out of coverage (i.e., keeping him in or near the box) helps the running game. If anything, I think that it would do the opposite.

 

Agreed that Vick will probably get better with time, but he's got a long way to go.

[780]

The Falcons were last in the NFC in passing attempts, so they can only go up.

[WaterMan]

I think part of the problem with Vick is how quickly he puts the ball down and starts running/scrambling.  I believe CPep and McNabb did that early in their career as well.  Once Vick learns how to 'feel' pressure and not be so quick to run and give up on his WR's you will see his passing numbers improve regardless of who he is throwing to.

 

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That and once Atlanta gets a line that can pass block.

[WaterMan]

I guess everyone missed the report of Peerless "once studly as #2 in Buffalo" Price getting challenged for the #1 spot.

[Jimmy Neutron]

 

It's that pesky left-hand twist Vick puts on the ball.

[Grits and Shins]

I think everyone is missing the point is that Waterman stated it's not Vicks fault that Price sucks.

 

When your #1 (not #2 or #3 WR Swerski) is not capable of beating man coverage or double teams it affects the production of the offense.  Price has evidently shown that he might not be a great or even average WR.  Now with Jenkins possibly taking his job we'll see.  I think this year Vick should improve more in the passing game and if he doesn't then he should get more criticism.  But to expect Vick to be Steve Young after 1 year in the system is dumb.  No other words for it.

The offensive line is average at best.  When people say they had a potent rushing attack why don't you take out Vicks rushing totals and see how potent that attack really was.  A 1/3 of their rushing totals was Vick taking off on bootlegs or busted plays not exactly indicative of a top notch O-line.

Also I see that a inordianate amount of Packer fans are haters of Vick.  I wonder if it's because of that playoff victory in Lambeau.  I can't think of one other team that appears to have more members challenging his abilities................

 

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How exactly do we even know that Price is or is not open? That fact that Price may or may not be open is irrelevant to Vick's decision to throw or not throw the ball. Vick is a run first, throw as an after thought QB.

[Hitman]

I don't care for watching McNabb play. I do like watching Vick play. But, McNabb is a far better QB than Vick. McNabb is pretty innaccurate himself, but Vick makes him look like Steve Young in that respect. It's taken McNabb a while to become a better pocket passer, and he has improved. Vick....well, the way his ball comes flinging out from that funky throwing motion, while he may have a strong arm....it's just not exactly getting it done.

Edited June 21, 2005 by Hitman

[WaterMan]

How exactly do we even know that Price is or is not open?  That fact that Price may or may not be open is irrelevant to Vick's decision to throw or not throw the ball.  Vick is a run first, throw as an after thought QB.

 

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There's a thing we use called eyes. Those eyes are very helpful when seeing if a wide receiver is open. They are even better to use when watching Price drop a ball.

[The Vatican Hitsquad]

Is there a stat on how many passes Price put on the ground? I know TO is notorious for it.

[Grits and Shins]

There's a thing we use called eyes. Those eyes are very helpful when seeing if a wide receiver is open. They are even better to use when watching Price drop a ball.

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Yeah I believe you watched Price all season and were able to percieve that he never got open I guess you are never open if the QB never throws the ball.

 

 

How many balls did Price drop?

Edited June 23, 2005 by Grits and Shins

[jgcoach]

The only way to know if Price is or isn't open is to be at the game, preferrably high enough to oversee the field. They don't usually show receivers that are covered on TV. They may show dropped passes though if the ball was ever thrown.

[Perchoutofwater]

I love Vick. There is always some idiot owner that will take him in the 3rd or 4th round ahead of much better QBs.

[Chavez]

Also I see that a inordianate amount of Packer fans are haters of Vick.  I wonder if it's because of that playoff victory in Lambeau.  I can't think of one other team that appears to have more members challenging his abilities................

 

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Just not going to let that delusion die, are you?

 

It might hold water if, in my case, I didn't:

 

- think Steve Young was better than Montana and consider Terrell Owens the most complete WR in the league (though I wish he wouldn't ever talk) (combined on td pass to knock GB out of the playoffs in '98)

 

- worship the ground Kurt Warner and Marshall Faulk walked on in part due to having them in my main league for 3 title runs (Rams debacle in '01)

 

- think Donovan McNabb is the bee's knees (4th and 26 in '03)

 

- find Daunte Culpepper to be almost underrated and the key to the Vikings success moreso than Moss (Vikes win at Lambeau in '04).