Czarina Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 A child in a class of 10 year olds tend to be the sort of kid who talks out of turn and isn't always giving the teacher 100% attention. The class has been assigned projects that involve speaking in front of the class. At one point in the school day, this child is called out of the classroom for some unrelated reason. While the student is gone, the teacher instructs the class to fool around and not listen when the child comes back to do the presentation. The teacher gives them permission to talk to each other and be generally disruptive. The child returns and the class acts up as instructed. The child tries repeatedly to do his part but the class won't stop. The presenting child eventually dissolves into tears and then the teacher steps in to stop "the joke." What do you think the presenting child learned from this "exercise?" How about the class? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 What do you think the presenting child learned from this "exercise?" I think the child learned just how rude and frustrating it is when someone doesn't respect the fact that you are trying to speak. How about the class? That making people cry is fun. IF the teacher steps in when she sees the child is obviously frustrated but BEFORE the child ends up in tears, is this scenario still a problem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 (edited) From what I've read and/or been told by those who profess knowledge on the subject, that's not a very effective way to get your point across. If the kid is acting out, he's got other issues and also may not necc. connect the dots to his own behavior. All he'll take away from this is that his teacher is an a-hole and his classmates suck. It would seem to me that the best way to stop this behavior is discipline the kid when he exhibits this behavior and go from there. Kinda goes back to the dog training thing. Correct your dog when they're doing something wrong. Not at some later point because they were doing something wrong. Edited September 22, 2009 by detlef Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czarina Posted September 22, 2009 Author Share Posted September 22, 2009 Now, this scenario isn't really fair since I know a bit more about the crier than all of you do. What if I told you that this child just moved to town within the last year and has difficulty making friends? The teacher and the child in question are both male. I can see what the teacher intended, but I think he went way over the line here. I just don't love the public humiliation as a teaching tool schtick. I don't care how much of a PITA that kid is, you haven't done anything to make him better by making him feel like a piece of crap. And I do agree that if the teacher had stepped in after a minute or two, the scenario would have been different. As it is, I can't help but imagine him springing another stupid object lesson like this on other kids in the class and my child is in this class. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Now, this scenario isn't really fair since I know a bit more about the crier than all of you do. What if I told you that this child just moved to town within the last year and has difficulty making friends? The teacher and the child in question are both male. I can see what the teacher intended, but I think he went way over the line here. I just don't love the public humiliation as a teaching tool schtick. I don't care how much of a PITA that kid is, you haven't done anything to make him better by making him feel like a piece of crap. And I do agree that if the teacher had stepped in after a minute or two, the scenario would have been different. As it is, I can't help but imagine him springing another stupid object lesson like this on other kids in the class and my child is in this class. Great, so now this dumbass, while likely doing nothing to teach this kid what he was trying to, likely set him back even further in terms of making friends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Double Agent Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 I have a hard time living by this rule...but two wrongs don't make a right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czarina Posted September 22, 2009 Author Share Posted September 22, 2009 My son, who's a pretty thoughtful and kind kid, certainly didn't get the teacher's point. He didn't even mention it, I heard it through another child's parent. When we talked about it, even he said it seemed pretty mean and he felt uncomfortable doing it -- and of course, some of the kids were having a little too much fun with it. I encouraged him to have the strength to refuse to participate in something that he disagrees with even if it's his teacher who tells him to do it. It's pretty tough to do though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Before giving an opinion I'd have to know if the parents had been contacted about the student's poor behavior, and if they had done anything to try to rectify it? Obviously that should be the first thing the teacher should have done. Now if the parents didn't do anything to correct the behavior or the behavior had not at least improved, then I don't have a real problem with what the teacher did. Sure it would be nice if he stepped in before the kid was reduced to tears, but the kid will remember it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Before giving an opinion I'd have to know if the parents had been contacted about the student's poor behavior, and if they had done anything to try to rectify it? Obviously that should be the first thing the teacher should have done. Now if the parents didn't do anything to correct the behavior or the behavior had not at least improved, then I don't have a real problem with what the teacher did. Sure it would be nice if he stepped in before the kid was reduced to tears, but the kid will remember it. I'm sure he'll remember it, but will he put it together? It's not a matter of whether the kid should be punished for being a little prick, rather choosing a punishment that's actually effective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 But what does this have to do with the fact that swammi did not apologize? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
millerx Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 (edited) From what I've read and/or been told by those who profess knowledge on the subject, that's not a very effective way to get your point across. If the kid is acting out, he's got other issues and also may not necc. connect the dots to his own behavior. All he'll take away from this is that his teacher is an a-hole and his classmates suck. It would seem to me that the best way to stop this behavior is discipline the kid when he exhibits this behavior and go from there. Kinda goes back to the dog training thing. Correct your dog when they're doing something wrong. Not at some later point because they were doing something wrong. +100 Kids at that age are not going to connect the dots... it's a little advanced for 10 year olds to handle. Cognitive comprehension just has not developed yet. Sure they know right from wrong, but they aren't able to see things from an abstract perspective like this a-hole teacher is trying to create. Some teachers just aren't able to relate and can't see the bigger picture for themselves either... Or they are burnt out and want to strike back... or are just plain ignorant. This teacher is a big d o u c h e. Edited September 22, 2009 by millerx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteelBunz Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 The guy forgot he was teaching 10 yr olds. Czar.....if YOUR son didn't get the point of the exercise, you can bet most of the kids didn't either. That tells me more about the situation than anything. I'm thinking the kid isn't as much of a PITA as the teacher felt he was. The class seemed to be rolling with it while the teacher got bent out of shape. The kid could have trouble concentrating.....or a minor attention problem. Seeing as he just moved there, maybe he's ahead of the class from his last school and was bored. Maybe he was talking out of turn because he's smart and trying to prove it or win some approval. Or was just seeking some attention. Regardless.......I'm inclined to think this was a bad teaching example. These are 10 yr olds. Subtlety is not exactly IN their repertoire......LOL. And...he made it harder for the kid to make friends. Never a good thing. What an ass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czarina Posted September 22, 2009 Author Share Posted September 22, 2009 Oddly enough, this guy is the "it" teacher that so many kids want to have. He's the only male teacher in the building, so that's one part. He's known for doing "fun" and unusual things. I think he thinks he's a maverick. He's 15 years into his career as a teacher, having done other things beforehand. He's very big into making the kids responsible for everything (code for he doesn't want to do a lot himself, IMO). IMO, this guy has a pretty significant case of ADD, which makes him fun to be around, an "out of the box" thinker, but someone who's always flying by the seat of his pants. He's already lost one of Alex's assignments and just wanted Alex to type it up from memory. Grrr. I still haven't decided whether I should talk to someone about this. I'm going to guess that the teacher hasn't spoken to the parents about the behavior, he just thought this would be a "fun" thing to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geeteebee Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Its an experience like this that, instead of causing the kid to change his behavior, will make him bring a gun to school and get his own revenge. I think you are well within your rights as a parent to talk with the teacher and tell him that although you understand the point he was trying to make, you believe he failed miserably and that you do not appreciate him instructing the kids to be discurteous as that is not a trait you are trying to instill in your son. I remember a kid in 4th grade who always acted up and the teacher finally had enough and physically threw him out of class. Nothing ever happened to the teacher but I'd imagine in today's world he'd be fired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_am_the_swammi Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 But what does this have to do with the fact that swammi did not apologize? +1 Wouldn't it have been equally effective if the teacher just hit him with a baseball and proceded to say "nanny-nanny boo-boo"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonorator Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 i really don't see this as such a big deal. 10 is old enough to put things together in terms of cause/impact. having him experience what he's causing is a great way to put him in the shoes of others. of course, the teacher needs to handle the follow-up in a caring way, in a teaching way, and not in some kind of a vindictive way. it would be great at the end if the entire class had a discussion about the experience and what was learned. go back to the blue eyes/brown eyes class experiment to teach kids about racism. that changed those kids FOR LIFE and the instructor was their hero. that was active discrimination over the course of weeks and i think the kids were younger. and teachers can't be afraid to take some risks in the event that a kid may bring in a gun and go off. if they fear this, they become robots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Neutron Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Probably the wrong approach for a 10-year-old, IMO. A lot of kids that age have not developed the abilty to empathize, so the lesson would be lost on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westvirginia Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 I can see both sides of this. On the one hand, a kid is not a dog in that it can be explained to him that "Hey - what you felt, that's what other people feel when YOU are disrupting class. You're being rude and disrespectful to them." On the other hand, someone above said that two wrongs don't make a right, and I absolutely believe that. Plus, you won't catch me humiliating my (or any other) kids in public. We don't teach the "seen and not heard". They are people, and are worthy of respect. That's not to say they aren't taught to defer to and honor their elders, but they don't get ridiculed for "dumb" questions, doing some "dumb kid" goof, or anything like that. I learned, and they will too. And that's probably where I would come down. I can tell you if a teacher did that to my child, I'd be glad it was a man because I'd cut his heart out and piss in the hole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cameltosis Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 I am having a hard time imagining a scenario where public humiliation will teach a valuable lesson to the kid or the class. Well, outside of the lesson Czar taught her kid when she talked to him about not always following instructions you are uncomfortable with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmarc117 Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 the kid needed to be taught a lesson. good for the teacher for having some balls and doing what had to be done. because the parents obviously have not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
millerx Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 the kid needed to be taught a lesson. good for the teacher for having some balls and doing what had to be done. because the parents obviously have not. naive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westvirginia Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 the kid needed to be taught a lesson. good for the teacher for having some balls and doing what had to be done. because the parents obviously have not. So it'd be OK for your boss to humiliate you for something publicly? You wouldn't mind that at all, huh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigMikeinNY Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 I teach 10 year olds, 4th grade. That "joke" was foolish and idiotic. That teacher was acting like a 10 year old him/her self. I would NEVER DREAM of doing something like that do one of my students, ever. That incident will be something that child will NEVER forget. There were SO MANY better ways to have taught that child the true value of being respectful to others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Kinda goes back to the dog training thing. Correct your dog when they're doing something wrong. Not at some later point because they were doing something wrong. umm, this is a rather poor illustration. a dog is limited in its capacity to understand cause and effect, which is why, if you want them to know what they're in trouble for, you kinda have to catch them doing it. a 10 year-old kid can put two and two together. as far as czar's scenario, it sounds a little harsh and unnecessary, BUT the story might sound a little different if we heard the teacher tell it rather than another kid's parent. I know you're trying to present it as factually as possible, czar, but another parent telling the story through 3rd and 4th party hearsay is rarely the most objective observer. I dunno, it sounds like the guy is an effective teacher. was this his greatest moment as an instructor? probably not. I suppose it's a fine line, but IMO you have to give teachers a certain amount of slack and freedom from parental haranguing if you want them to be effective. if it becomes a pattern and/or affects your kid more directly, then I think you'd be more firmly justified speaking to someone about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpwallace49 Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 the kid needed to be taught a lesson. good for the teacher for having some balls and doing what had to be done. because the parents obviously have not. Obviously you dont have kids. very short sighted and immature of you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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