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Is there anyone out there better than Tom Brady?


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Just seems to me that this kid is setting the standard for NFL qb's...3 out of 4 years Superbowl champ...2 time superbowl MVP..could have easily been 3 time superbowl MVP...Cool as a cucumber, tougher than 20 penny nails...This guy will go down as the greatest player of all time....Could there possibly be anyone better than the man named "Brady"

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Just seems to me that this kid is seeting the standard for NFL qb's...3 out of 4 years Superbowl champ...2 time superbowl MVP..could have easily been 3 time superbowl MVP...Cool as a cucumber, tougher than 20 penny nails...This guy will go down as the greatest player of all time....Could there possibly be anyone better than the man named "Brady"

 

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From a football stand point, not only a FF standpoint:

 

This year: Manning, CPep, and possibly McNabb.

 

In the recent past: Favre, Elway, Marino, Steve Young, Montana, Simms, and possibly even Aikman.

 

I'll leave the pre 1980's to some of the old timers.

 

Brady is a slightly above average QB on a great team. He is not a great QB. I'd rather have any of the QB's I mentioned above in their prime over Brady. Remember, it doesn't take a great QB to win a SB, just look at Dilfer.

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Just seems to me that this kid is setting the standard for NFL qb's...3 out of 4 years Superbowl champ...2 time superbowl MVP..could have easily been 3 time superbowl MVP...Cool as a cucumber, tougher than 20 penny nails...This guy will go down as the greatest player of all time....Could there possibly be anyone better than the man named "Brady"

 

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That this topic was even brought up speaks volumes on the dismal state of the QB position in today's NFL.

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Brady has been very successful on a very successful team. One thing that he has not proven he can do is bring his team back in the 4th quarter. The one time he tried last year against the Phins he looked like a rookie. He played like one too. Until he can show that he can pull a game out late in the 4th quarter, as far as I am concerned, just how good he really is remains an unanswered question.

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:D

 

Thats a tough question to answer especially when you consider how much the media loves Brady.

 

Listen, Brady is a solid QB and he's done some great things in clutch situations but I believe his success is a product of the team he is on rather than on his ability. I think if any other decent QB started for the Patriots over the last 4 years they would have put up similar numbers and would have enjoyed similar accomplishments. I've had the same problem with Troy Aikman being considered one of the top QB's of all-time. Aikman wasn't the reason for the Cowboys success, he certainly did enough not to lose the game, but he didn't lift his team to wins. Same thing can be said for Brady. He's had some fine moments, but this Patriots dynasty is the ultimate example of "team," and Brady has been no more important than Dillon last year, or Ty Law during their first SB run (Law should have won the Superbowl MVP over Brady for his performance against the Rams).

 

Anybody else feel the same way?

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Brady has been very successful on a very successful team. One thing that he has not proven he can do is bring his team back in the 4th quarter. The one time he tried last year against the Phins he looked like a rookie. He played like one too. Until he can show that he can pull a game out late in the 4th quarter, as far as I am concerned, just how good he really is remains an unanswered question.

 

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You mean like in Superbowl 36 after the Rams tied it up or in Superbowl 38 after the Panthers took the lead?? You mean those 4th qtr comebacks?? On the biggest stage in football?? I don't think you thought about this statement for very long before you typed it.

 

I'm not in any way saying Brady is the best ever, nor is he even in the Top 10, but this statement doesn't make much sense.

 

Peace.

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:D

 

Thats a tough question to answer especially when you consider how much the media loves Brady.

 

Listen, Brady is a solid QB and he's done some great things in clutch situations but I believe his success is a product of the team he is on rather than on his ability. I think if any other decent QB started for the Patriots over the last 4 years they would have put up similar numbers and would have enjoyed similar accomplishments. I've had the same problem with Troy Aikman being considered one of the top QB's of all-time. Aikman wasn't the reason for the Cowboys success, he certainly did enough not to lose the game, but he didn't lift his team to wins. Same thing can be said for Brady. He's had some fine moments, but this Patriots dynasty is the ultimate example of "team," and Brady has been no more important than Dillon last year, or Ty Law during their first SB run (Law should have won the Superbowl MVP over Brady for his performance against the Rams).

 

Anybody else feel the same way?

 

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This is pretty much the way I see it. An extreme example is when the Ravens won the Superbowl. All they needed was a QB who wasn't going to flat out lose games, just let the defense control the game and play on a short field all the time.

 

Brady is very poised and he seems to play his best when the stage gets larger, so he's got a ton going for him. But, he has been within the shell of the best NFL team, top to bottom, and he's only asked to manage the game--not asked to take the game over. It's hard to label him the "best" when the surrounding cast has been so dominant.

 

I think he is a very fine QB, will most likely be a Hall of Famer when it's all said and done, but I can't label him the best QB out there.

 

By the way, this will be the FIRST of MANY "Tom Brady Rocks" threads in 05...responding to one will be enough for me. Glad I got it out of the way. :D

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You mean like in Superbowl 36 after the Rams tied it up or in Superbowl 38 after the Panthers took the lead??  You mean those 4th qtr comebacks??  On the biggest stage in football??  I don't think you thought about this statement for very long before you typed it.

 

I'm not in any way saying Brady is the best ever, nor is he even in the Top 10, but this statement doesn't make much sense.

 

Peace.

 

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In both of those games, what Brady did wasn't extrordinary. Yes, he moved the team, but didn't win the game, Vinatieri did, with FG's of 48 and 41 yards. Now, if the Pats needed 4 points, and Brady took them down the field to win, I'd say he proved himself. Maybe I didn't make that point clearly in my post. But, I repeat, he has been a successful QB on a very successful team. He hasn't yet proven he can do the kinds of things all of the great ones do, throwing TD passes to win games in the last possession. That was what he had to do in Miami last year against a pretty bad D, and he looked terrible. I never said he can't do this, or that he isn't good enough to do it. I'm saying he hasnt done it yet. If the Pats had another kicker, do they win both of those games? Hey, the guy has won, and I'm not trying to take that away from him, he's a good QB. Great? Not yet, in my book.

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Someone mentioned Aikman...I think the comparison is very good. Both the Cowboys and the Patriots can attribute their success to their QB. But there are other factors that are much more important. Running game, Defense, Home Field in January, etc. But very few people really consider either one of them franchise type QB's. Hey Marino NEVER won ONE. Elway wouldnt have either if not for Terrell Davis. I think Brady is a heck of a good QB. He doesnt beat his team, and that really IS important. As far as coming back in the forth quarter...if you dont have to very often its not that big a deal.

 

That said, to say about Brady "Has ANYONE ever been better?" seems like a simple question. Of course.

 

Quite honestly, he isnt the best QB in his Conference today, yesterday or tomorrow. Certainly titles figure into any equation. But Marino, among others was better yesterday, Manning is better today. Of course I could be wrong, I still think the Redskins are a viable professional franchise. :D

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In both of those games, what Brady did wasn't extrordinary. Yes, he moved the team, but didn't win the game, Vinatieri did, with FG's of 48 and 41 yards. Now, if the Pats needed 4 points, and Brady took them down the field to win, I'd say he proved himself. Maybe I didn't make that point clearly in my post. But, I repeat, he has been a successful QB on a very successful team. He hasn't yet proven he can do the kinds of things all of the great ones do, throwing TD passes to win games in the last possession. That was what he had to do in Miami last year against a pretty bad D, and he looked terrible. I never said he can't do this, or that he isn't good enough to do it. I'm saying he hasnt done it yet. If the Pats had another kicker, do they win both of those games? Hey, the guy has won, and I'm not trying to take that away from him, he's a good QB.  Great? Not yet, in my book.

 

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Don't you think saying that what he did in the 4th qtr of those two Superbowls wasn't extraordinary is a bit of an understatement?? We can agree to disagree I guess, but I really think you're way off base here.

 

Greatness can be achieved in many ways. Late game TD's is only one measure as far as I'm concerned. Brady shouldn't be punished because his team has only been behind a few times in the 4th qtr.

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:D

 

Thats a tough question to answer especially when you consider how much the media loves Brady.

 

Listen, Brady is a solid QB and he's done some great things in clutch situations but I believe his success is a product of the team he is on rather than on his ability. I think if any other decent QB started for the Patriots over the last 4 years they would have put up similar numbers and would have enjoyed similar accomplishments. I've had the same problem with Troy Aikman being considered one of the top QB's of all-time. Aikman wasn't the reason for the Cowboys success, he certainly did enough not to lose the game, but he didn't lift his team to wins. Same thing can be said for Brady. He's had some fine moments, but this Patriots dynasty is the ultimate example of "team," and Brady has been no more important than Dillon last year, or Ty Law during their first SB run (Law should have won the Superbowl MVP over Brady for his performance against the Rams).

 

Anybody else feel the same way?

 

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Yeah, pretty much. I feel that he's very comparable to Troy Aikman: A very good QB with an accurate arm who can make the big plays from time to time and doesn't make mistakes very often. But once you take away that stellar defense, I don't see the evidence that he can get it done by himself. He did a good job of exploiting a mediocre Carolina secondary in SB 38, but he also threw a pick late in the game that resulted in a Carolina TD and got some serious help from Kasay's out-of-bounds kickoff and Vinatieri (again) on the last drive. Until Brady takes the Pats to the playoffs with a below-average defense, I can't put him in the same category as guys like Marino, Tarkenton, Fouts, etc.

 

Also agreed that Law was absolutely screwed out of the SB 36 MVP. When a defensive player equals his offense's TD output, I don't see how one CAN'T give him the MVP. Brady did deserve the SB 38 MVP, though.

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Don't you think saying that what he did in the 4th qtr of those two Superbowls wasn't extraordinary is a bit of an understatement??  We can agree to disagree I guess, but I really think you're way off base here.

 

Greatness can be achieved in many ways.  Late game TD's is only one measure as far as I'm concerned.  Brady shouldn't be punished because his team has only been behind a few times in the 4th qtr.

 

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Well, to beat a dead horse,

ex·traor·di·nar·y ( P ) Pronunciation Key (k-strôrdn-r, kstr-ôr-)

adj.

Beyond what is ordinary or usual: extraordinary authority.

Highly exceptional; remarkable: an extraordinary achievement.

 

What Brady did was what most QB's on a super bowl caliber team would do. He played very well, and did what he had to to win. In order to break into the extaordinary, moving a team 37 yards for a long field goal in one minute isn't enough. The Aikman comparison is a very good one. I don't consider Aikman an extraordinary QB either. Within the framework of thier teams, both did what was needed to win, and did that very well. Yes, Brady pays a price for playing on a team that rarely has to come from behind. Is that fair? Maybe not. That does NOT mean Brady isn't an extraordinary QB. He may well be. Truth be told, I'd rather have him over Pennington (that was REALLY hard to type) but, he has to wear this yolk until he can prove he can carry a team to paydirt (the end zone) with his back against the wall. Until he does, the jury is still out on just how good he really is, in my mind.

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I think Brady is great..Hes extremely cool and under control and he has those intangibles that are so important..We had this discussion last year though..We debated his rings over Mannings abilities..There is a grey area there..Sure the team concept is a big factor (Def,running game,Coaching staff etc) But the bottom line is that Brady is a winner. Do you think the Pats wouldve won all these superbowls without him? Before Bledsoe went down were they a contender that year? (Im really not sure of the answer to that question) Brady has the goods..Best ever remains to be seen but he is for real.

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In both of those games, what Brady did wasn't extrordinary. Yes, he moved the team, but didn't win the game, Vinatieri did, with FG's of 48 and 41 yards. Now, if the Pats needed 4 points, and Brady took them down the field to win, I'd say he proved himself. Maybe I didn't make that point clearly in my post. But, I repeat, he has been a successful QB on a very successful team. He hasn't yet proven he can do the kinds of things all of the great ones do, throwing TD passes to win games in the last possession. That was what he had to do in Miami last year against a pretty bad D, and he looked terrible. I never said he can't do this, or that he isn't good enough to do it. I'm saying he hasnt done it yet. If the Pats had another kicker, do they win both of those games? Hey, the guy has won, and I'm not trying to take that away from him, he's a good QB.  Great? Not yet, in my book.

 

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One example off the top of my head is the game in Denver in 2003.

Down by 3 with 2 minutes left, Brady hit Givens with 30 seconds left to win the game 30-26. He was 20 of 35 passing for 350 yards, 3 touchdowns and an interception.

 

The Pats have had a streak going of consecutive games (home or away) of scoring first, which ended on the final reg season game last year. While the defense gets some credit for the streak, a QB that constistantly puts the team in position to score first is putting that team in posistion to win.

 

And the anti-Brady people love to lump the RB into the equation. "Dillon this, Dillon that, Elway would never have won without Davis". People seem to forget that Antowain Smith was the running back in NE for Brady's first 3 years.

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How do you rank a QB?

 

Is it passer Rating?

1 KURT WARNER 97.2

2 Steve Young 96.8

3 Joe Montana 92.3

4 JEFF GARCIA 88.3

5 PEYTON MANNING 88.1

6 DAUNTE CULPEPPER 88.0

7 BRETT FAVRE 86.9

8 Otto Graham 86.6

9 Dan Marino 86.4

10 TRENT GREEN 86.1

11 TOM BRADY 85.9

 

Brady is currently at 87.5 which is only good enough to be 11th all time, which is pretty good but he still has a ways to go to become the highest rated Passer ever. Although 2004 was his best year so far at 92.6, but there are still 4 active players ahead of him.

 

Or do you rank them on wins & losses?

(Regular Season Only)

No. Player W-L-T PCT.

1. John Elway 148-82-1 .643

2. Dan Marino 147-93-0 .613

3. Fran Tarkenton 125-109-6 .533

4. Warren Moon 102-97-0 .513

5. Dave Krieg 98-77-0 .560

 

At 48 - 14 Brady is on a pace to surpass even Elway in this category.

 

Or do you rate them on Super Bowl Wins?

At 3 Brady is all ready one of the greatest ever.

 

Or is it Super Bowl MVP awards?

Again with 2 Brady is one of the greatest ever.

 

I'm not sure if he is the best ever or even the best right now but he is and will be one of the winningest QB's in NFL History before he is done. And if it is true that NFL QB's don't reach their peak until 7 or 8 years into their careers he may end up being the best ever.

 

I do know this, he doesn't seem to get rattled, so he just might be the calmest QB ever.

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Do you think the Pats wouldve won all these superbowls without him? Before Bledsoe went down were they a contender that year?

 

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I don't know about Bledsoe, but I'd argue that Brad Johnson or Trent Dilfer may have sufficed.

 

Saying that "the bottom line is that Brady's a winner" is simplistic and not completely correct. Brady's team won three SBs and, not to discount what Brady has done, but they've ONLY won when that defense was dominant...

 

(Year, rank in points allowed, result)

 

2001, 6th, SB champs

2002, 17th, failed to make playoffs

2003, 1st, SB champs

2004, 2nd, SB champs

 

Not to discount what Brady has done, but NE's fate has seemed to be tied more closely to its defensive play than Brady's (who had a career season in 2002).

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How do you rank a QB?

 

Is it passer Rating?

1 KURT WARNER        97.2

2 Steve Young          96.8

3 Joe Montana            92.3

4 JEFF GARCIA          88.3

5 PEYTON MANNING    88.1

6 DAUNTE CULPEPPER 88.0

7 BRETT FAVRE          86.9

8 Otto Graham            86.6

9 Dan Marino              86.4

10 TRENT GREEN        86.1

11 TOM BRADY          85.9

 

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Well, since looking at passer ratings means that 3 of the top 4 QBs of all time would be 49ers, then: yes. I think that's how we should - nay, MUST - approach this issue.

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... Truth be told, I'd rather have him over Pennington (that was REALLY hard to type) but, he has to wear this yolk until he can prove he can carry a team to paydirt (the end zone) with his back against the wall. Until he does, the jury is still out on just how good he really is, in my mind.

 

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A QB's back is never as "against the wall" at any time in their career than when they are playing in a Superbowl. Their entire career is defined first by their ability to get to a Super Bowl and then by how they play once there. Marino is often referred to as one of the greatest QB's ever but anytime someone brings him up there is someone else there to remind us that he never won a Super Bowl. If it weren't for the arrival of Terrell Davis in Denver then John Elway would be suffering the same fate. And Neil O'Donnel will forever be remembered for how poorly he played in his Super Bowl Appearance.

 

Now Tom Brady has already been to and won 3 Super Bowls, twice being named the MVP of the game. And in those Games Brady has been no less than excellent.

 

In 3 Super Bowls he has completed over 65% his passes completing 71 of 108 for 735 yds, 6 TD's and only 1 INT.

 

I am the first to say that football is a team sport but in a sport where greatness in QB's is measured by Super Bowl success then one must admit that Tom Brady has already proven himself to be one of the best ever.

 

And just out of curiosity does anybody know how many times Brady has failed to rally his team from a 4th quarter deficit?

 

I'm betting not often, since they have only lost 14 games in 4 years since he has been named the starter. It's hard to be a leader in that stat if your team rarely trails in the 4th Quarter.

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Do you think the Pats wouldve won all these superbowls without him? Before Bledsoe went down were they a contender that year?

 

How quickly you guys forget, if it wasn't for Bledsoe's performance against the Steelers in the AFC championship game during that first magical playoff run the Patriots wouldn't have advanced. There was even talk of Bledsoe taking er for Brady for the Superbowl that year. Brady is one of the better QBs in the league, but he is overrated.

Edited by Trainer_Phil
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