Chavez

Let's talk about the Metal

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Odd how we can disagree so much on a subject we agree on.

 

 

You guys aren't disagreeing, you're quibbling.

 

I'm just disappointed there's no love for Killing is My Business... ; that smokes So Far, So Good, So What IMO. SFSGSW doesn't suck, by any means, but it lies in some nether region between the raw, in-your-face aggression of the first two albums and somewhat tamed but more musically proficient Rust In Peace.

 

One thing Megadeth has ALWAYS had over Metallica is the caliber of musicianship - Metallica may have had the continuity, but throughout the revolving door Mustaine had going, their guitarists and drummers have always been a cut above. And as much as I think Poland and Gar Samuelson were the bee's knees, the lineup with Nick Menza and Marty Friedman was pretty clearly their strongest on a musical basis.

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Yep, I saw Helmet open for Sepultura & Ministry in LA, Scott Ian came out for an encore on "Supernaut" with Jourgeson, incredible show.

 

I can top that - I saw Rick Neilsen from Cheap Trick play "Supernaut" with Ministry.

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Again, my opinion, but for the first 5 albums, Metallica was a far more consistant act than Megadeth. And when Ride the Lightning came out, there was NOTHING like it, it changed the face of Metal.

 

I am not the biggest Metallica guy out there either (actually, of the mid-80s speed metal "Big Four" of Anthrax, Megadeth, Metallica, and Slayer, I lean heavily towards Anthrax), but Bonehand is right - it's not a stretch to say that Metallica is arguably the 2nd most important band in heavy metal history.

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I am not the biggest Metallica guy out there either (actually, of the mid-80s speed metal "Big Four" of Anthrax, Megadeth, Metallica, and Slayer, I lean heavily towards Anthrax), but Bonehand is right - it's not a stretch to say that Metallica is arguably the 2nd most important band in heavy metal history.

 

 

I would agree with this

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I can top that - I saw Rick Neilsen from Cheap Trick play "Supernaut" with Ministry.

 

I had dinner with him in Ichiban's in Minneapolis.

 

Or, more correctly, we were both in the restaurant at the same time. :D

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Love Dave Mustaine, but Metallica was revolutionary and wrote metal master pieces.

 

...but would they have been as revolutionary without Mustaine's early influences? He was as integral a part of the band as anyone until his substance abuse problems caused him to get booted.

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...but would they have been as revolutionary without Mustaine's early influences? He was as integral a part of the band as anyone until his substance abuse problems caused him to get booted.

 

 

No way, but I think Burton had a lot to do with that too.

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No way, but I think Burton had a lot to do with that too.

 

True - Burton's influence led to at least two of the better Metallica songs - he got the guys into Lovecraft, which inspired "Call of the Ktulu" and "The Thing That Should Not Be". I find ...And Justice For All? to be a bit underwhelming, and I've usually figured that was 100% due to Burton's absence.

 

What's amazing is that it appears that Jason Newsted was shut out of Metallica's creative process - his post-Metallica career has been varied and interesting, unlike Metallica during the bulk of his stint there.

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One thing Megadeth has ALWAYS had over Metallica is the caliber of musicianship - Metallica may have had the continuity, but throughout the revolving door Mustaine had going, their guitarists and drummers have always been a cut above. And as much as I think Poland and Gar Samuelson were the bee's knees, the lineup with Nick Menza and Marty Friedman was pretty clearly their strongest on a musical basis.

 

 

I totally agree with that. Deth=Better musicians, Metallica=better songwriters. But I'm pretty biased on that count, as Creeping Death is probably my favorite Metal song of all time.

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I find that a totally odd statement. IMO, Megadeth was a great band about half the time, and subpar the rest.

every 'Deth album has loads of filler, & buckets of rinky dink lame riffs. Sure you can throw up Peace Sells, Rust, and Countdown to Extinction (which I love) as examples of great metal, but Metallica NEVER put up a bag of crap like So Far So Good So What in their heyday. THEY were saving that for Load thru St Anger. :D

 

Again, my opinion, but for the first 5 albums, Metallica was a far more consistant act than Megadeth. And when Ride the Lightning came out, there was NOTHING like it, it changed the face of Metal.

 

So Far So Good is a pretty damn good album, In My Darkest Hour is one of their best tracks and I always digged Hook In Mouth and Liar. And that is their weakest album, until after Youthanasia that is.

 

Metallica's black album is pretty bad, Enter Sandman & Nothiing Else Matters are crap along with Of Wolf and Man, Wherever I May Roam and others. Lame, sellout album. Total crap MTV pandering radio friendly crap. Bob Rock took them and nipped their balls off right there. Under him, an epic like Disposable Heroes would have been 3 shorter, simpler songs with a video featuring a creepy old man in each.

 

Also, 2 tracks on Ride the Lightening were co-written by Mustaine, including the title track.. .STILL... two albums after he was booted. And Megadeth's first album was out by then, so there certainly WAS somethign that sounded like it. Along with the entire Metal Blade catalog in fact, including Anthrax first 2 albums, Exodus and others.

 

All opinion, but that explains how i feel and where my statement comes from.

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I'm just disappointed there's no love for Killing is My Business... ; that smokes So Far, So Good, So What IMO. SFSGSW doesn't suck, by any means, but it lies in some nether region between the raw, in-your-face aggression of the first two albums and somewhat tamed but more musically proficient Rust In Peace.

 

One thing Megadeth has ALWAYS had over Metallica is the caliber of musicianship - Metallica may have had the continuity, but throughout the revolving door Mustaine had going, their guitarists and drummers have always been a cut above. And as much as I think Poland and Gar Samuelson were the bee's knees, the lineup with Nick Menza and Marty Friedman was pretty clearly their strongest on a musical basis.

 

+1

That is what I've loved about them as well, they were a band with 2 lead guitarists and Friedman was incredible. I loved Metallica as well, they had 3 smoking albums with that great Garage Days EP (I'm not that big a fan of Kill em All). But the Black album was SO disapointing to me, that i see them as a great band with a shorter run of quality.

 

Killin gIs My Business DOES smoke, I do agree. The title Track and These Boots... were standouts, but Peace Sells is so strong that it vastly overshadows it.

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Metallica's black album is pretty bad, Enter Sandman & Nothiing Else Matters are crap along with Of Wolf and Man, Wherever I May Roam and others. Lame, sellout album. Total crap MTV pandering radio friendly crap. Bob Rock took them and nipped their balls off right there. Under him, an epic like Disposable Heroes would have been 3 shorter, simpler songs with a video featuring a creepy old man in each.

 

 

 

I would say, that is spot on.

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Think about the hippy sound when they came out... what the hell were they thinking when they started writing music like that?

 

I want to clarify this, I meant what was SABBATH thinking when they started writign music like this while the rest of the industry was in a different direction.

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I want to clarify this, I meant what was SABBATH thinking when they started writign music like this while the rest of the industry was in a different direction.

Well, if you listen to it, it IS very blues-based, like the Stones and Yardbirds and John Mayall and such...but where the others went melodic, Sab slowed it down to a dirge. You can hear the roots, but I think through their fog of Josh Gordon and acid, the boys realized that nobody sounded like them or was doing what they were doing and they ran with it.

 

Actually, tangential to this, Trouble are playing in town on March 17th, hopefully I'll be making that show.

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Actually, tangential to this, Trouble are playing in town on March 17th, hopefully I'll be making that show.

I love that most metal bands from the 80's are now on the circuit again... kinda like back in the 80's, when you would see a band like Zebra show up at the Chance in Poughkeepsie.

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So Far So Good is a pretty damn good album, In My Darkest Hour is one of their best tracks and I always digged Hook In Mouth and Liar. And that is their weakest album, until after Youthanasia that is.

 

Metallica's black album is pretty bad, Enter Sandman & Nothiing Else Matters are crap along with Of Wolf and Man, Wherever I May Roam and others. Lame, sellout album. Total crap MTV pandering radio friendly crap. Bob Rock took them and nipped their balls off right there. Under him, an epic like Disposable Heroes would have been 3 shorter, simpler songs with a video featuring a creepy old man in each.

 

Also, 2 tracks on Ride the Lightening were co-written by Mustaine, including the title track.. .STILL... two albums after he was booted. And Megadeth's first album was out by then, so there certainly WAS somethign that sounded like it. Along with the entire Metal Blade catalog in fact, including Anthrax first 2 albums, Exodus and others.

 

All opinion, but that explains how i feel and where my statement comes from.

 

Hey VH, please take all of the following as friendly discussion between fellow metalheads:

 

Yeah, I Just don't agree with you there. I even put So Far on this afternoon just to make sure I was remembering right, since I hadn't listened to it in years, and I'm afraid I still think it sucks. 502 is awesome, but the cover of Anarchy is sorry, and the second half is totally weakafter 502, again IMO. And unless I'm mistaken, I'm pretty sure Mustaine himself has said that he was at the worst of his drug mania at that time, and that it's not his best.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like Megadeth & own most of their stuff (through Risk anyway). Peace Sells, Devil's Island, Symphony, Hanger 18, Holy Wars & quite a few more are amongst metal's best tunes. But I have never considered them as groundbreaking as Metallica. Sure there were a few riffs left in the bag that DM wrote that Metallica used on RTL, but the band tightened up tremendously after Dave's departure, IMO the brilliance of Ride the Lightning could not have been achieved with Mustaine.

 

And you are wrong on your timing: RTL came in 1984, BEFORE Armed & Dangerous & Spreading the Disease from Anthrax, & BEFORE Killing is..., all 1985. Fistful of Metal was out, but you can't even compare that to RTL. The above mentioned albums were ALL a result of listening to RTL, believe that.

 

I stand by by comment RTL changed the face of metal. It perfected the Chug Crunch that became the gold standard in Metal of all stripes. Fight Fire with Fire redefined the speed AND technicality of what would become speed metal. I still remember buying it the day it came out, and it cracked my head open. There truly was nothing else like it at that point, and I was listening to all of it.

Edited by Bonehand

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I stand by by comment RTL changed the face of metal. It perfected the Chug Crunch that became the gold standard in Metal of all stripes. Fight Fire with Fire redefined the speed AND technicality of what would become speed metal. I still remember buying it the day it came out, and it cracked my head open. There truly was nothing else like it at that point, and I was listening to all of it.

...well, aside from Kill 'Em All. Oh, and Slayer's Show No Mercy. And several albums by Venom.

 

I hear what you're saying, but I think that the template was really KEA, and RTL just built on the basics set down there - it was a step up in numerous ways - musical chops, more mature songwriting, etc - but it was only building on what Metallica had already established with their first album.

 

 

EDIT - actually, I had to edit the Slayer album, I had the wrong one - but I don't think anyone needs to state that the comments are made as "part of a friendly discussion"; I think the debate is fun and no one is arguing that anything or anyone sucks, it's just sort of a "here's my view and why" - which is always good. :D

Edited by Chavez

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Here's a neat little "Best of Metal" on a year-by-year basis.

 

Funny, I never realized that Budgie came out pretty much concurrently with Black Sabbath. But anyway, it looks like bands like Slayer, Metal Church, Mercyful Fate, Hellhammer, and Venom were all WELL established by the time RTL came out - now I'm not going to say it isn't an important album that opened things up, but I don't believe any of those extant bands changed their horses mid-stream, so to speak.

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...well, aside from Kill 'Em All. Oh, and Slayer's Show No Mercy. And several albums by Venom.

 

I hear what you're saying, but I think that the template was really KEA, and RTL just built on the basics set down there - it was a step up in numerous ways - musical chops, more mature songwriting, etc - but it was only building on what Metallica had already established with their first album.

EDIT - actually, I had to edit the Slayer album, I had the wrong one - but I don't think anyone needs to state that the comments are made as "part of a friendly discussion"; I think the debate is fun and no one is arguing that anything or anyone sucks, it's just sort of a "here's my view and why" - which is always good. :D

 

 

See again, I would argue that to my ears, Kill 'em all (Motorbreath rules), Show No Mercy (Evil has No Boundaries also a big favorite of mine), and even Venom if you must throw a band with no musical ability whatsoever into the discussion, while all containing elements that were to be combined and perfected by Metallica on Ride the Lightning, were strictly JV efforts compared to RTL's Varsity level Metal. We can agree to disagree if you like.

 

And you are wrong about one other thing, I AM arguing that SFSGSW sucks. :D

Edited by Bonehand

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And on the new acquisitions front, if you are looking for something COMPLETELY different, I just picked up a cd called Jakten's Tid (HuntingTime) By Fintroll. This CD is both ridiculous & awesome fun at the same time. The style is "Trollish Metal" of all things, which sounds like a cross between Children of Bodom & Danny Elfman's soundtrack music. The band's from Finland but the lyrics are in Swedish because it's sounds so much more "damn trollish", according to the bands first singer. Of course, the tunes are replete with cookie Monster vocals, since they ARE supposed to be freakin' trolls, so if that's a deal killer for you, steer clear. Otherwise, It's a blast, check it out.

Edited by Bonehand

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See again, I would argue that to my ears, Kill 'em all (Motorbreath rules), Show No Mercy (Evil has No Boundaries also a big favorite of mine), and even Venom if you must throw a band with no musical ability whatsoever into the discussion, while all containing elements that were to be combined and perfected by Metallica on Ride the Lightning, were strictly JV efforts compared to RTL's Varsity level Metal. We can agree to disagree if you like.

Nah, I don't think we're really disagreeing all that much. As I said, I think Ride the Lightning undeniably upped the ante; but the game was already well on it's way, if you get my drift.

And you are wrong about one other thing, I AM arguing that SFSGSW sucks. :D

 

:D...It's certainly Megadeth's weakest effort of their first 5-6 albums. "Anarchy" seems calculated, "Into the Lungs of Hell" and "Mary Jane" are pretty clearly filler, and "In My Darkest Hour" is solid but a bit overrated, and but the vitriol and intensity on "Set the World Afire", "502", "Liar", and "Hook in Mouth" pretty well redeem whatever sins Mustaine, Ellefson, and Co. committed on the album. Still, you're right that the tally of hits-to-misses is at about 50%.

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I had dinner with him in Ichiban's in Minneapolis.

 

Or, more correctly, we were both in the restaurant at the same time. :D

 

The closest I ever got to the great man is I bought some under-21 chicks who went to HS with his daughter some beer at a show.

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Venom if you must throw a band with no musical ability whatsoever into the discussion,

 

Granted, we could probably learn to play as well as Venom in about a week or two (if we don't already)...but would we be as much guilty fun? :D

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Hey VH, please take all of the following as friendly discussion between fellow metalheads:

before i read any further, i want to say i LOVE this thread... It's like having a conversation over beers, and don't take anything i say as being confrontational... it's just so great to debate this with you guys!! Ya can't do it unless ya loved it!

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