Chavez Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 if you can bring sharpe into a discussion about WR, then i can bring in roger craig, who seemed to get about 700 yards receiving every year. 1398435[/snapback] Roger Craig was the rich man's Sammy Winder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 I agree with you to an extent on that one, but it can also be argued that Young and Montana helped Rice become the great WR he is known as today. Although, that is not to take away from the work and effort Rice put into perfecting his performance on the field. I think when you put the greatest QB and play him with the greatest WR you get the powerhouse 49ers we saw play in the 80's and 90's. 1398851[/snapback] The QB/WR theory is so chicken/egg at times that it's difficult to separate which of the two contributes more. I generally cite Sterling Sharpe as an example of both what a good WR can do with mediocre QBing (his 1990 season of 1100 yds catching balls from Anthony Dilweg and Blair Kiel for half the season is pretty remarkable when you think of it), how a go-to WR can elevate a decent QB (Majkowski-to-Sharpe in '89 was unstoppable, despite constant double teams), and what can happen when a great WR gets a first-rate QB talent (even with Favre being raw and a bit undisciplined, Sharpe managed to set the catch record in consecutive years, despite having literally NO second option in 92-93; his catches fell off in 94, but he only snagged 18 tds - 2nd highest total in league history). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 i don't disagree that he was reasonably impressive during his short stint in KC, given his age and the offensive talent around him. but when you say he "made a lot happen", let's keep in mind that he threw for 5400 yards over two seasons. not exactly lighting it up. when he was surrounded by average talent he put up average numbers. montana's legacy is what he did in san fran, running bill walsh's offense and throwing to three pro bowl receivers, including the greatest to ever play the game. to say he was surrounded by average talent is a bit silly. 1398694[/snapback] Again, part of what (slightly) diminishes Montana on the list IMO are the numerous exterior factors he had going for him - Walsh was a good 3-4 yrs ahead of the league and a legit football genius, he tended to have above-average RBs for a good chunk of his career - Wendell Tyler, Roger Craig - a GREAT OL coach in Bob McKittrick, who could turn chicken crap into chicken salad with the best of 'em, and let's not forget that as Walsh built, the defensive talent was absolutely phenomenal as well. Certainly his greatness is most evident with the 81 team where he wasn't surrounded by much at all, and the 88 Super Bowl (which, ironically, the 9ers wouldn't have even been in if not for Steve Young's gutty 40+ yd td run against the Vikes). But those 84 and 89 teams could've won the title with just about any competent QB at the helm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 Coaching makes a HUGH difference. Put Reeves in charge of the Montana-era 49ers and there's no way in hell that Joe Cool wins 4 SBs. 1398682[/snapback] Well, Reeves WAS the head man on 4 SB teams (albeit SB-losing teams). And for all the slings and arrows he endures for "holding Elway back," I tend to think a team's head coach has SOMETHING to do with a team making the SB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 (edited) Well, Reeves WAS the head man on 4 SB teams (albeit SB-losing teams). And for all the slings and arrows he endures for "holding Elway back," I tend to think a team's head coach has SOMETHING to do with a team making the SB. 1399118[/snapback] I wasn't trying to trash Reeves, who was certainly a good coach. But he was nowhere near the offensive genius that Walsh was. FWIW, I don't think that Montana would've won 4 SBs with Pracells, Gibbs, Landry, Ditka, etc. at the helm of the 49ers, either. Edited April 2, 2006 by Bill Swerski Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bier Meister Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 I wasn't trying to trash Reeves, who was certainly a good coach. But he was nowhere near the offensive genius that Walsh was. FWIW, I don't think that Montana would've won 4 SBs with Pracells, Gibbs, Landry, Ditka, etc. at the helm of the 49ers, either. 1399280[/snapback] now that's just crazy talk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 now that's just crazy talk. 1399289[/snapback] Not really - for all his superb intangibles, Montana didn't have the big arm needed (or at least desired) to succeed in a "conventional" offense. The Montana/Walsh/9ers dynasty was very much a perfect confluence of QB, coach, and team in the right place at the right time. Montana probably would have been a pretty good NFL QB without Walsh; Walsh probably would have won a Super Bowl or two without Montana; but they would not have been as successful apart as they were together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 Oh, and I'd also like to point out that Walsh was almost at good at personnell moves as coaching. He plucked Montana in the 3rd round (most reliable report I've heard about any other team was the Packers picking him in the 5th), "overdrafted" the "slowish" 1-AA WR Jerry Rice, traded for the productive Wendell Tyler, Fred Dean, and Hacksaw Reynolds, etc etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 as far as dan reeves...good coach. maybe almost a great coach. but NOT an offensive innovator, and NOT a guy condusive to statistical offensive prowess. a coach who comes to mind as being similar is the guy he beat in three AFC championships, schottenheimer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bier Meister Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 i'm sorry. if they could win with simms, hostetler, rypien, mcmahon... they could have gone further with joe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 i'm sorry. if they could win with simms, hostetler, rypien, mcmahon... they could have gone further with joe. 1399318[/snapback] as long as they paid his appearance fee... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bier Meister Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 as long as they paid his appearance fee... 1399322[/snapback] ah john...what's with the long face? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 as far as dan reeves...good coach. maybe almost a great coach. but NOT an offensive innovator, and NOT a guy condusive to statistical offensive prowess. a coach who comes to mind as being similar is the guy he beat in three AFC championships, schottenheimer. 1399314[/snapback] That's a fair assessment - what I find unfair is the perception that somehow Elway's success in the 80s is in SPITE of Reeves. I think Reeves proved his ability turning around a rudderless Giants org and making the perennially sad-sack Falcons competitive in most years and dominant in one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bier Meister Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 (edited) That's a fair assessment - what I find unfair is the perception that somehow Elway's success in the 80s is in SPITE of Reeves. I think Reeves proved his ability turning around a rudderless Giants org and making the perennially sad-sack Falcons competitive in most years and dominant in one. 1399326[/snapback] agree edit: still think he handcuffed elway a bit though. Edited April 2, 2006 by Bier Meister Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 That's a fair assessment - what I find unfair is the perception that somehow Elway's success in the 80s is in SPITE of Reeves. I think Reeves proved his ability turning around a rudderless Giants org and making the perennially sad-sack Falcons competitive in most years and dominant in one. 1399326[/snapback] yeah, i'd agree with that. as far as winning games, i don't have any doubt that reeves and elway helped each other. to me, the "reeves holding elway back" argument really only comes in with elways stats. yards, completetion percentage, stuff like that. sometimes people try and hold that against elway, and then the point about reeves holding him back is a valid one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 yeah, i'd agree with that. as far as winning games, i don't have any doubt that reeves and elway helped each other. to me, the "reeves holding elway back" argument really only comes in with elways stats. yards, completetion percentage, stuff like that. sometimes people try and hold that against elway, and then the point about reeves holding him back is a valid one. 1399339[/snapback] Actually, I was just took a look at the numbers, and they are at the very least interesting as to Reeves "holding Elway back". During the Reeves/Elway years in Den, they OFTEN ranked much higher in pass atts than in rush atts - from 85-90, they finished 2nd, 8th, 2nd, 4th, 22nd, and 9th in pass atts while finishing 12th, 21st, 7th, 19th, 3rd, and 12th in rushing atts. That's an average of 8th in pass atts and 12th in rush atts as compared to the rest of the league. As a matter of fact, Elway had finishes of 1st, 4th (twice), 5th, and 6th in pass attempts form 85-90; post-Reeves, he finished first in pass attempts in 94 but never came in higher than 7th after that. So while you can certainly criticize Reeves' offensive design or playcalling, it appears difficult to contend that he kept Elway completely under wraps in favor of the run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 (edited) i'm sorry. if they could win with simms, hostetler, rypien, mcmahon... they could have gone further with joe. 1399318[/snapback] They wouldn't have won 4 SBs. And they sure as hell wouldn't have out-smarted opposing defensive coordinators with Walsh's WCO. I'm not sure that those guys would've even drafted Montana. Didn't the Giants pass up on Montana for Simms? Edited April 2, 2006 by Bill Swerski Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big John Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 Didn't the Giants pass up on Montana for Simms? 1399398[/snapback] As did every other team Simms drafted 1.7 in 1979, Montana drafted 3.28 (last pick in the 3rd round) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGrunt Posted April 3, 2006 Author Share Posted April 3, 2006 As did every other team Simms drafted 1.7 in 1979, Montana drafted 3.28 (last pick in the 3rd round) 1399431[/snapback] The 49ers gave all the teams not just one chance but three to redeem themselves! That's funny stuff. I guess the great part of the NFL draft is that you really don't know what type of talant you're drafting until many years down the road, although sometimes there is the instant all-star player born right out of college and into the NFL. I love football Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGrunt Posted April 3, 2006 Author Share Posted April 3, 2006 (edited) I do, however, wonder if any team other than the Niners have ever drafted back-to-back Hall of Fame QB's or were they just extremely lucky to have been blessed with this kind of talant for so many years? Edited April 3, 2006 by TheGrunt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retrograde assault Posted April 3, 2006 Share Posted April 3, 2006 (edited) In some polls around here I try to be as objective and impartial as I can be, but other times, I just vote for what makes me feel good. And this time I vote for Captain America! Edited April 3, 2006 by Retrograde assault Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted April 3, 2006 Share Posted April 3, 2006 I do, however, wonder if any team other than the Niners have ever drafted back-to-back Hall of Fame QB's or were they just extremely lucky to have been blessed with this kind of talant for so many years? 1399931[/snapback] I checked this out once upon a time - a good/great QB following a great QB isn't exactly unheard of: - Tom Brady coming after the very productive Drew Bledsoe - from 64-85, the Redskins had Sonny Jurgensen, Billy Kilmer, and Joe Theismann in succession - Dallas replaced Don Meredith with Roger Staubach, who was then followed by the solid Danny White - Neil Lomax supplanted Jim Hart for the Cards - Kenny Anderson was immediately followed by Boomer Esiason in Cincy - Oakland went Daryle Lamonica-Ken Stabler-Jim Plunkett - the highly productive John Hadl was immediately replaced by a young Dan Fouts in SD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGrunt Posted April 3, 2006 Author Share Posted April 3, 2006 In some polls around here I try to be as objective and impartial as I can be, but other times, I just vote for what makes me feel good. And this time I vote for Captain America! 1399992[/snapback] But could he have been the great American Hero is was without his side-kick Bucky? After Bucky was replaced by Captain Americas girlfriend in 1948 it seemed his popularity disappeared within a year of that. Kind of reminds me of Elways stats post-Reeves. Only Elway had the skill to keep things moving well enough to win another Superbowl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGrunt Posted April 3, 2006 Author Share Posted April 3, 2006 - Tom Brady coming after the very productive Drew Bledsoe 1400008[/snapback] This one kind of makes me wonder if Drew Bledsoe could have done the same 3 Superbowl dynasty like Tom Brady did with the Patriots. Tom Brady seems to stay cool under pressure a little better but I agree that Bledsoe is an above average QB who's lasted in the NFL as a starting QB despite being dropped by the Patriots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bier Meister Posted April 3, 2006 Share Posted April 3, 2006 49ers traded for young (got him from tampa) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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