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The Vatican Hitsquad

Is Vick overrated?

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I say he is WAY overrated for all the fawning over him as the best athelete in the game, one of the best qb's , blah blah blah.

 

What has he done to deserve all this? Really, he has a great scrmabling style, but so have many other QBs before him. Remember "slash"? He was the NFL golden child for a while, magazine covers, game boxes, #1 overall pick suggestions from FFIndex... and now he's a joke.

 

In no way am I comparing him to Stewart, but PLEASE tell me what Vick has done to deserve all this? 1 good, not great, season... a predictable injury last year (considering his playing style)...

 

let's see him win a few more playoff games before we crown him teh next Favre or Cullpepper... hell, I'll take a few winning seasons.

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He won a playoff game at Lambeau Field..

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For where he's going in Drafts, I say he's overrated.

 

Oh, did you mean in REAL football?

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Yes, and that is all it takes these days for you to be crowned king of the NFL...

 

I know that he won a single playoff game over a hardly intimidating Packer team in GB.. big F'n deal. That stat alone hardly warrants the praise he has gotten, it's almost like mass market mentality... somebody said it to start, other people wanted to come across as knowledgabe as them so they agreed he was teh best and before we know it, it's wide spread and there's nothing in his career so far to warrant it.

 

I wanna believe, I do... help me obi won kenobi, you're my only hope...

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The Wappinger Raiders:

#1 overall pick suggestions from FFIndex...

Whoa, I'm almost positive Vick was never the #1 overall pick on FFIndex. Maybe their #1 QB--but a lot of FF ech-spurts ranked him that high last year, too.

 

On the other hand, I hear what you're saying about Vick, at least to a point. For a guy who has been hurt virtually every year of his playing career going back to high school, he does get hyped more than he deserves, though I think his injury rep has generally caught up with him. It's Catch-22 with this guy--if he runs a lot (and only if he runs a lot), he's a potential fantasy monster, but if he runs a lot, he'll inevitably break your heart when he goes down.

 

No matter how intriguing Vick's potential might be, he's being drafted too high to ever make it on any of my teams. I'd rather aim for a guy like Brooks or Bulger as my fantasy QB and let Vick be someone else's headache.

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I called the injury last season in August...maybe I didn't expect that many games to be missed...but it was a predictable injury...

 

not to mention the fact that he's trying to throw more than run...

 

he's going to start this season like McNabb started the last...trying to beat teams with his arm too much....too scared to get hurt

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Avernus:

....too scared to get hurt

Is he to scared too get hurt, or is the team management too scared he will get hurt? Big difference there. If it is team management, then I don't see him doing anything different after about the second regular season game. If it is him, well, he needs to find another day job because playing scared is not conducive to a healthy NFL career.

 

He was the number 3 QB in a lot of FF leagues his 2nd year in the league. IF he is healthy, and we will see if he is in a couple weeks, and is allowed to play his game, I can see him being in that position again. However, there are a lot of IF's, and I would just as well pass on him when it comes time for me to pick a QB.

 

I think the jury is still out on this one. He has been given a lot of tools to work with, is supposed to be healthy, and now it is time to put up or sit down.

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My league does not reward extra points for rushing TDs by a QB, ie they are all 6 points and 1 point for any 10 yards. Vick hardly ranks in the top 10 in my book.

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Trots:

My league does not reward extra points for rushing TDs by a QB, ie they are all 6 points and 1 point for any 10 yards.  Vick hardly ranks in the top 10 in my book.

Cheeze- I agree with you! If you get 1 point for every 10 yards passed, then that is insane. I'm thinking that had to be a typo or something.

 

As far as Vick is concerned, a buddy of mine just made a trade for him last night and he is way excited. I'm having a hard time understanding why he is going to pay so much to keep him this year. I guess you either really like Vick, or you don't. Personally, I think he has a lot to prove before I get him on my team. Yeah, it's nice to have a QB that can gain all the yardage on the ground, but it's also nice to not have him sitting on your bench for half the seaon because of injury.

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Swiss Cheezhead:

 

Trots:

1 point for any 10 yards.

Passing, rushing, and receiving yards all count for the same points? That's ridiculous. Why is that rediculous? It's all relative, QBs score more points than any other player, but it is true for all 12 teams - RBs are still the most important position.

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Vick: 178 yards passing, 86 yards rushing, 1 TD = 31 points

Favre: 302 yards passing and 2 TDs = 42 points

 

Jamal Lewis: 142 yards rushing, 2 TDs, 28 yards receiving = 28 points

 

Granted QBs score more points, but are not more valuable. In my original reply, the point was that QBs like Vick are not better in my scoring system.

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Swiss Cheezhead

Ask defensive coordinators if he's overrated. The answer is no.

Well, FF value and real game value are sometimes only tangentially related.

 

Personally, I agree Wappinger - he's had one good, not great season, and has put together a few darn impressive games (mostly with his feet). He might very well be the ultimate weapon talent-wise, but can he consistently harness it in terms of ff numbers and/or Falcons' wins? (note: I'm no Falcons fan, but I think we can all agree that the 2nd number is the truly important one) I think the jury is reasonably still out on that. Being excited because of his upside is completely understandable, but some people are really frothing at the mouth about it, IMO.

 

I remember watching the Packer playoff game, and my comment to my buddy when watching Vick was "man, now I know how those other fans have felt watching Favre all this time." The guy can be an incredible playmaker, but I'm not ready to put him in either the Pro Football or FF Hall of Fame yet.

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Chavez:

 

Swiss Cheezhead

Ask defensive coordinators if he's overrated. The answer is no.

Well, FF value and real game value are sometimes only tangentially related. The tone of the original post was not in FF terms, so I was simply commenting in NFL terms.

 

I think it goes without saying that Vick hasn't turned his immense talent into incredible FF value. It's kind of ridiculous to argue that he's "overrated" in fantasy terms, since it's almost impossible to argue about "upside".

 

People who have Vick rated highly as a fantasy QB are obviously doing so based on his potential. Can anyone say that the potential doesn't exist? Unless you believe injuries will be his ultimate downfall, I think it's pretty clear that once he masters the art of throwing the ball, there isn't much of a ceiling to the numbers he could put up.

 

The only real argument about Vick in the fantasy world is WHEN he will play to his potential.

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Trots:

Vick: 178 yards passing, 86 yards rushing, 1 TD = 31 points

Favre: 302 yards passing and 2 TDs = 42 points

 

Jamal Lewis: 142 yards rushing, 2 TDs, 28 yards receiving = 28 points

This is a pretty good illustration of why your scoring system is ridiculous.

 

Why would a very marginal game for a QB score more than an awesome game from a RB?

 

With that scoring system, I shudder to think about the lousy QBs having one good game in the fantasy playoffs and knocking out another squad with good performances from their RBs and WRs. thumbs_d

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Swiss Cheezhead

I think it goes without saying that Vick hasn't turned his immense talent into incredible FF value. It's kind of ridiculous to argue that he's "overrated" in fantasy terms, since it's almost impossible to argue about "upside".

 

People who have Vick rated highly as a fantasy QB are obviously doing so based on his potential. Can anyone say that the potential doesn't exist? Unless you believe injuries will be his ultimate downfall, I think it's pretty clear that once he masters the art of throwing the ball, there isn't much of a ceiling to the numbers he could put up.

 

The only real argument about Vick in the fantasy world is WHEN he will play to his potential.

Can't disagree with your post, but being a pessimist, I'd probably phrase the last sentence as "the question is IF/WHEN he will play to his potential."

 

I might be completely missing something, but I just don't feel compelled to roll the dice on Vick. Figure everyone who has so far has gotten about 20 games out of him, and I'd hazard only half of those were above average ff-wise.

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My league rewards points for Yards Per Carry if they get over 5 carries in the game. If he happens to bust a 75 yarder, and gets 4 more rushes for 25 yards. he gets 10 pts for 100 yds, PLUS 20 POINTS for YPC. I traded Culpepper, Zereoue and Hambrick for him in my keeper league last year and most in my league consider it a darn good move.

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Swiss Cheezhead:

 

Trots:

Vick: 178 yards passing, 86 yards rushing, 1 TD = 31 points

Favre: 302 yards passing and 2 TDs = 42 points

 

Jamal Lewis: 142 yards rushing, 2 TDs, 28 yards receiving = 28 points

This is a pretty good illustration of why your scoring system is ridiculous.

 

Why would a very marginal game for a QB score more than an awesome game from a RB?

 

With that scoring system, I shudder to think about the lousy QBs having one good game in the fantasy playoffs and knocking out another squad with good performances from their RBs and WRs. thumbs_d

Hmm... Now that I look at it and your reasoning, I think it does need some tweaking. I seem to remember getting knocked out of the playoffs 2 years ago by Brad F'ing Johnson's 51 points. I had the far superior team. Thanks for the insight. computer Now, time to fire off some e-mails...

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In regards to Vick, look at this way.

 

What kind of success and general season did the Falcan'ts have with Vick as their QB all year?

 

What kind of success and general season did the Falcan'ts have without Vick as their QB all year?

 

There's your answer.

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The caveat to that could always be that in terms of Falcon success, Vick is no Jamal Anderson.

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I was talking about NFL value initially, but that caries straight into Fantasy as well- both are equally rediculously overrated.

 

The man hasn't even done much for the Falcons yet, as Chavez has pointed out (Chandler and Anderson brought them an NFC Championship), let alone really do anything in the NFL that would warrant all the praise he gets.

 

Upside? Sure. Potential? You bet. Deliverables? Not really, if you want to count a single playoff win in GB as a reason why his game is unmatched, then you best stick with your Madden 2004. Every once in a while a QB or a RB screws up a defensive coordinators world-- until they figure out how to squash it. I don't think Vick is any different, he's too fragile to be effective for long and I still don't believehe's proven a thing yet.

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For those of us who had him on their fantasy teams in 2002, Vick was unbelievable. I traded for him mid-season and he led my team to the title. I think that is why so many are high on him.

While I agree he is a risk (you should always get a backup a little earlier), when he plays, he puts up monster fantasy numbers. Therein lies the risk. Huge reward, but also a possibility he might get hurt. You might say the same about Culpepper. Every year he puts up monster numbers, but every year he sprains an ankle at the end of the year, or hurts his back and misses 4 games. Personally, I'm keeping Vick in my dynasty league over Marc Bulger, just because Vick is so explosive. You cannot blindly refuse to draft a guy 'cause he missed one game in '02, and broke his leg in '03. Injuries are part of the game, and can happen to anyone at anytime. Do not believe the crap about him staying in the pocket this year. It ain't gonna happen when he's got a 290 lb. DE about to take his head off.

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