skins Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 (edited) so let's recap. gay marriage is not needed to for two people of the same sex to care for each other. gay marriage is not needed to promote stable, traditional families. gay marriage is not needed for health care coverage. that can be addressed separately, and is in place for many today (it is at my company). gay marriage is not needed for tax relief, we could just allow a SO to be claimed as a dependent. it is a good thing to give economic aid to any single, two, or combination of people who are helping to raise a child that is adopted. this is admirable to support. for those who want it again ... why is that exactly? can we provide some grounds vs. running around yelling discrimination! discrimination! I am starting to think you are sort of pathetic now. Besides the sheer meanness of wanting to legally exclude yer fellow Americans from a wonderful legal institution for no reason, you are clearly fine with discriminating against yer fellow Americans because of who they decide to marry. It is one thing to say that yer religion tells you to discriminate--which is what you have been saying until now. But you have moved into another area here, the area of blatant falsehood. Are you really claiming that marriage does not confer benefits? joint parenting; joint adoption; joint foster care, custody, and visitation (including non-biological parents); status as next-of-kin for hospital visits and medical decisions where one partner is too ill to be competent; joint insurance policies for home, auto and health; dissolution and divorce protections such as community property and child support; immigration and residency for partners from other countries; inheritance automatically in the absence of a will; joint leases with automatic renewal rights in the event one partner dies or leaves the house or apartment; inheritance of jointly-owned real and personal property through the right of survivorship (which avoids the time and expense and taxes in probate); benefits such as annuities, pension plans, Social Security, and Medicare; spousal exemptions to property tax increases upon the death of one partner who is a co-owner of the home; veterans' discounts on medical care, education, and home loans; joint filing of tax returns; joint filing of customs claims when traveling; wrongful death benefits for a surviving partner and children; bereavement or sick leave to care for a partner or child; decision-making power with respect to whether a deceased partner will be cremated or not and where to bury him or her; crime victims' recovery benefits; loss of consortium tort benefits; domestic violence protection orders; judicial protections and evidentiary immunity; and many many more... Now that is a quick list and there are many more legal benefits to marriage, including numerous tax benefits. There are over 1000 federal benefits alone. And guess what, tonormanondog? Most of those benefits cannot be privately contracted. Edited July 13, 2006 by skins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skins Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 civil arrangement is fine with me. If you agree with me that the government should let same sex partners marry, what is yer point here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiegie Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 Another benefit of marriage is that if you get married to a foreigner, they get a green card pretty much automatically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonorator Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 I am starting to think you are sort of pathetic now. Besides the sheer meanness of wanting to legally exclude yer fellow Americans from a wonderful legal institution for no reason, you are clearly fine with discriminating against yer fellow Americans because of who they decide to marry. It is one thing to say that yer religion tells you to discriminate--which is what you have been saying until now. But you have moved into another area here, the area of blatant falsehood. Are you really claiming that marriage does not confer benefits? joint parenting; joint adoption; joint foster care, custody, and visitation (including non-biological parents); status as next-of-kin for hospital visits and medical decisions where one partner is too ill to be competent; joint insurance policies for home, auto and health; dissolution and divorce protections such as community property and child support; immigration and residency for partners from other countries; inheritance automatically in the absence of a will; joint leases with automatic renewal rights in the event one partner dies or leaves the house or apartment; inheritance of jointly-owned real and personal property through the right of survivorship (which avoids the time and expense and taxes in probate); benefits such as annuities, pension plans, Social Security, and Medicare; spousal exemptions to property tax increases upon the death of one partner who is a co-owner of the home; veterans' discounts on medical care, education, and home loans; joint filing of tax returns; joint filing of customs claims when traveling; wrongful death benefits for a surviving partner and children; bereavement or sick leave to care for a partner or child; decision-making power with respect to whether a deceased partner will be cremated or not and where to bury him or her; crime victims' recovery benefits; loss of consortium tort benefits; domestic violence protection orders; judicial protections and evidentiary immunity; and many many more... Now that is a quick list and there are many more legal benefits to marriage, including numerous tax benefits. There are over 1000 federal benefits alone. And guess what, tonormanondog? Most of those benefits cannot be privately contracted. this is a hugh reach. i'm not going to go through them one by one, but these indeed can be handled via other means. i've already said that benefits pertaining to child rearing are acceptable to give to those becoming legal guardians. most companies today already provide for this with child care, leave, etc. and i'm in favor of requiring all companies to do this. outside of that, except for statistical anomolies - "crime benefit recovery benefits"?), all of these can be accomplished via different arrangements, most of them by just making a will/living will. i can't remember any homosexuals marching down the street picketing against their loss of consortium tort benefits ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonorator Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 If you agree with me that the government should let same sex partners marry, what is yer point here? that a civil arrangement does not a marriage make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 Another benefit of marriage is that if you get married to a foreigner, they get a green card pretty much automatically. You obviously hate America if you want more foreigners here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 this is a hugh reach. i'm not going to go through them one by one, but these indeed can be handled via other means. ...but most easily handled by a simple 15-minute ceremony. All the time I would have had to spend in a lawyer's office making sure that those rights were afforded my partner had we NOT married were fortunately freed up to spend doing more productive things. Like posting here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonorator Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 that a civil arrangement does not a marriage make. and in reality, it is not that necessary for any practical purposes ... green card? anyone can come over the the U.S. and become a citizen if they follow the process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaxfactor Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 To quote Andrew Dice Clay.. "Gay rights? I'll give ya gay rights! 50% off vaseline. Now get the f**k back in the closet!" What ever floats their boat. Just stay the hell away from me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skins Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 (edited) this is a hugh reach. i'm not going to go through them one by one, but these indeed can be handled via other means. i've already said that benefits pertaining to child rearing are acceptable to give to those becoming legal guardians. most companies today already provide for this with child care, leave, etc. and i'm in favor of requiring all companies to do this. outside of that, except for statistical anomolies - "crime benefit recovery benefits"?), all of these can be accomplished via different arrangements, most of them by just making a will/living will. i can't remember any homosexuals marching down the street picketing against their loss of consortium tort benefits ... BullAthena. Most of those cannot be addressed contractually. And please explain how to address tax benefits contractually. I used to think you were amusingly misguided, now I wonder if yer not a vile bigot. Yer spinning real real hard to make it seem like marriage is not beneficial and thus not something all Americans should have. Edited July 13, 2006 by skins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiegie Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 green card? anyone can come over the the U.S. and become a citizen if they follow the process. you are out of your f'ing mind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonorator Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 you are out of your f'ing mind we stopped all of our immigration practices? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyalboyd Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 To quote Andrew Dice Clay.. "Gay rights? I'll give ya gay rights! 50% off vaseline. Now get the f**k back in the closet!" What ever floats their boat. Just stay the hell away from me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonorator Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 Yer spinning real real hard to make it seem like marriage is not beneficial and thus not something all Americans should have. marriage is not meant for just anyone to have. that has been my point all along. it means much more than a set of legal and tax benefits. it means much more to us as a people. you don't see that. the laws and arrangements we have stem from why we believe the marriage between a man and a woman is fundamental to our society. marriage came first, benefits followed. if you don't meet the prereqs, you don't play, sorry. i'm not going to go into the spiritual meaning and importance of marriage, we've been down that road. you apparently don't adhere to any spiritual beliefs, so it is not of importance to you anyway. it is for these reasons, however, that it started and became a supported institution in the first place. call me another name now and assert your intellectual superiority ... we can agree to disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiegie Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 (edited) we stopped all of our immigration practices? what immigration practice lets "anyone come over to the U.S. and become a citizen if they follow the process" Edited July 13, 2006 by wiegie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PantherDave Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 marriage is not meant for just anyone to have. that has been my point all along. it means much more than a set of legal and tax benefits. it means much more to us as a people. you don't see that. the laws and arrangements we have stem from why we believe the marriage between a man and a woman is fundamental to our society. marriage came first, benefits followed. if you don't meet the prereqs, you don't play, sorry. i'm not going to go into the spiritual meaning and importance of marriage, we've been down that road. you apparently don't adhere to any spiritual beliefs, so it is not of importance to you anyway. it is for these reasons, however, that it started and became a supported institution in the first place. call me another name now and assert your intellectual superiority ... we can agree to disagree. Well said, this has become a train wreck, and actually both have some solid points, and you two have worn me out ..ah, have...have made me tired Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonorator Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 what immigration practice lets "anyone come over to the U.S. and become a citizen if they follow the process" sorry, i'm no immigration expert, but the statement was pretty clear. if you follow the process to become an american citizen, then you become a citizen. am i missing something? you know, there is legal immigration and then there is illegal immigration .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonorator Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 Well said, this has become a train wreck, and actually both have some solid points, and you two have worn me out ..ah, have...have made me tired i didn't think anyone was following! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonorator Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 what immigration practice lets "anyone come over to the U.S. and become a citizen if they follow the process" these people did it ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiegie Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 sorry, i'm no immigration expert, but the statement was pretty clear. if you follow the process to become an american citizen, then you become a citizen. am i missing something? you know, there is legal immigration and then there is illegal immigration .... Your statement was perfectly clear and almost perfectly incorrect. What you are missing is the fact that it is pretty much impossible for most people to legally come over to the United States to live here. Hence your notion that anyone can just legally follow the process and eventually they will get to become a US citizen (or even legal US resident) is just plain wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 marriage is not meant for just anyone to have. it means much more to us as a people. you don't see that. the laws and arrangements we have stem from why we believe the marriage between a man and a woman is fundamental to our society. marriage came first, benefits followed. if you don't meet the prereqs, you don't play, sorry. i'm not going to go into the spiritual meaning and importance of marriage, we've been down that road. you apparently don't adhere to any spiritual beliefs, so it is not of importance to you anyway. it is for these reasons, however, that it started and became a supported institution in the first place. Accusing others of asserting intellectual superiority while you wield "moral superiority" like a club...nice. As far as prereqs - call me silly, but I think two adults who are willing to stand up in front of friends, family, and whatever supernatural entities may or may not exist and declare "we're in this together until death" pretty much covers the whole ball of wax. Personally, I know quite a few same-sex couples who are as solid and committed as any breeders; maybe moreso than most. I have a hard time denying them the opportunity (and benefits) granted opposite-sex couples because the physiology doesn't quite match the norm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Peanut Guy Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 PEANUTS...GET YOUR FRESH ROASTED PEANUTS HERE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
splotchman Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 PEANUTS...GET YOUR FRESH ROASTED PEANUTS HERE Big John - Quick. What huddler signed in here under this new avy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonorator Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 Your statement was perfectly clear and almost perfectly incorrect. What you are missing is the fact that it is pretty much impossible for most people to legally come over to the United States to live here. Hence your notion that anyone can just legally follow the process and eventually they will get to become a US citizen (or even legal US resident) is just plain wrong. from that document: "During fiscal year 2005, more than 600,000 new Americans were sworn-in as U.S. citizens in ceremonies around the nation." i'm no expert here, i'm just saying that people are finding ways to do it. this was under the context of we need gay marriage so people can become U.S. immigrants, so it is all a bit . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonorator Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 here's how the brits say to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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