nhoops Posted September 14, 2006 Share Posted September 14, 2006 And the situation just won't go away.. http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2586012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Posted September 14, 2006 Share Posted September 14, 2006 And the situation just won't go away.. http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2586012 What a classy oranization the Pats are. Let it go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Beatings Posted September 14, 2006 Share Posted September 14, 2006 Not too many people out there feeling sympathetic for the Patriots in this whole fisaco. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhoops Posted September 14, 2006 Author Share Posted September 14, 2006 What a classy oranization the Pats are. Let it go. Yeah the topic has been thoroughly discuss in many threads. My thoughts are that I'm sad to see him go, I thought he was a good reciever. But the Pats have a system and they didn't want to set a precedence for other players so I can see where they are coming from, but I don't really like the out come. We'll see how they come out of this....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hause62 Posted September 14, 2006 Share Posted September 14, 2006 Not too many people out there feeling sympathetic for the Patriots in this whole fisaco. I hope this is the beginning of there downward spiral!!! A Bills fan can only hope...Right?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Posted September 14, 2006 Share Posted September 14, 2006 I hope this is the beginning of there downward spiral!!! A Bills fan can only hope...Right?? They still have Tom Brady. Perhaps you could send him a bucket of "special" chicken wings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hause62 Posted September 14, 2006 Share Posted September 14, 2006 They still have Tom Brady. Perhaps you could send him a bucket of "special" chicken wings. Teddy B. would just wave his hand over them and they would not be so "special" any more. Then Brady would give each receiver a equal amount and they would all play like pro bowlers for the rest of the season. I wish the Bills would find what ever kool aid the Patriots drink and steal it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted September 14, 2006 Share Posted September 14, 2006 Seriously, what is wrong with NE? Is there something in the water coolers there? The team is sprialing downward both on & off the field. Did or did not NE give Branch explicit permission to seek a trade because they had no intentions of meeting his demands? Did or did not Branch & the Jets then communicate in good faith relying upon that permisssion from NE to create a trade (which would have benefited NE greatly, IMNSHO). Did or did not NE then reneg on its end of the deal & try to screw Branch royally while trying to gash the Jets at the same time? Looks like Craft/Belichek & friends are reading Al Davis' book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiskey Pimp Posted September 14, 2006 Share Posted September 14, 2006 Looks like Craft/Belichek & friends are reading Al Davis' book. With one difference, the Pats are putting a winning product on the field and the Raiders are horrible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bring Back Pat!!! Posted September 14, 2006 Share Posted September 14, 2006 Seriously, what is wrong with NE? Is there something in the water coolers there? The team is sprialing downward both on & off the field. Did or did not NE give Branch explicit permission to seek a trade because they had no intentions of meeting his demands? Did or did not Branch & the Jets then communicate in good faith relying upon that permisssion from NE to create a trade (which would have benefited NE greatly, IMNSHO). Did or did not NE then reneg on its end of the deal & try to screw Branch royally while trying to gash the Jets at the same time? Looks like Craft/Belichek & friends are reading Al Davis' book. Well, no, no, and no. They gave Branch's agent permision to find a trade partner that would send fair compensation. That compensation in the begining was 2 #1s. Now, the arguement can be made that the asking price was unfair, granted, but that was the price. Neither the Jets nor the SeaChickens met that asking price by the deadline the Pat's had set. So there was no deal, and Branch WAS STILL UNDER CONTRACT TO THE TEAM! The Pat's were under no obligation to deal him at any point, and were doing him a favor by letting him look for a trade partner. They could have ignored him the entire time and he'd still be at home acruing more fines for not reporting. It was reported last night locally that Seymour gave him advice that he should do what he thought was right, and do what was in his best interest. Wrong guy to get advice from because Seymour held out and the Pats eventually gave him that extension. Why? Because they thought Seymour was one of the best interior lineman in the league, which he is. They also gave Brady an extension for the same reason. I don't think there are too many people that think Branch is one of even the best 10 WRs in the league, so the pat's weren't going to screw up their future locking him into a long term deal for more than he was worth. They just drafted a 1st round talent WR this year so it may hurt a little this year, but they will be fine in the long run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charty Posted September 14, 2006 Share Posted September 14, 2006 (edited) There are 2 parts, first is the fine to Branch. When players hold out.........while holding out, the fine keeps adding up over training camp. If the team and player come to terms, the team usually let's the fine slide (part of coming to terms). Branch was under contract to play for the Patriots this year, he violated that contract by holding out. By deciding he'd sit until week 10 instead of playing for the Pat's, he put the Pat's in the spot of having already lost their #2 receiver via free agency and losing their #1 receiver via a hold out. They have every right to seek the training camp fine and the 20% of the original signing bonus (he only played in 4 out of the 5 years he signed to play). The argument with the Jets is that Branch had the permission to work out contract terms, and then the Pats would negiotiate with the Jets the compensation part of the trade. The Patriots contend that the Jets told Branch the terms (2nd round draft pick), and they shouldn't have shared that info. Basically, that if the Jets and Pats couldn't agree to the terms, the trade wouldn't happen, period. The Pats are saying that the Jets said to Branch "we offered a 2nd round pick, we think that's fair, you think that's fair, why don't you file a grievance", when they shouldn't have shared that info. Edited September 14, 2006 by charty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted September 14, 2006 Share Posted September 14, 2006 With one difference, the Pats are putting a winning product on the field and the Raiders are horrible. well, once upon a time, al davis put a winning product on the field as well. he got his comeuppance... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted September 14, 2006 Share Posted September 14, 2006 There are 2 parts, first is the fine to Branch. When players hold out.........while holding out, the fine keeps adding up over training camp. If the team and player come to terms, the team usually let's the fine slide (part of coming to terms). Branch was under contract to play for the Patriots this year, he violated that contract by holding out. By deciding he'd sit until week 10 instead of playing for the Pat's, he put the Pat's in the spot of having already lost their #2 receiver via free agency and losing their #1 receiver via a hold out. They have every right to seek the training camp fine and the 20% of the original signing bonus (he only played in 4 out of the 5 years he signed to play). The argument with the Jets is that Branch had the permission to work out contract terms, and then the Pats would negiotiate with the Jets the compensation part of the trade. The Patriots contend that the Jets told Branch the terms (2nd round draft pick), and they shouldn't have shared that info. Basically, that if the Jets and Pats couldn't agree to the terms, the trade wouldn't happen, period. The Pats are saying that the Jets said to Branch "we offered a 2nd round pick, we think that's fair, you think that's fair, why don't you file a grievance", when they shouldn't have shared that info. that is retarded. the pats give express permission to seek a trade, and then cry tampering when the jets and branch discuss what it's going to take to get the trade done? that is absolutely ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingfish247 Posted September 14, 2006 Share Posted September 14, 2006 the only thing i hate about the way the Pats do business is they ask players to take a pay cut 'for the team.' well don't players take pay cuts or restructure under the assumption the Pats can keep some other people around? Oh I don't know, like maybe their best WR over the last couple years and their most recent SB MVP? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duchess Jack Posted September 14, 2006 Share Posted September 14, 2006 (edited) They have every right to seek the training camp fine and the 20% of the original signing bonus (he only played in 4 out of the 5 years he signed to play). Eh... they had to agree to the trade for it to happen, Yes? And Branch would have played that last few games of the season, fulfilling his contract, had the Pats not agreed to the trade. So... why is he responsible for returning 20% of his signing bonus? Edited September 14, 2006 by Duchess Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charty Posted September 14, 2006 Share Posted September 14, 2006 (edited) Eh... they had to agree to the trade for it to happen, Yes? And Branch would have played that last few games of the season, fulfilling his contract, had the Pats not agreed to the trade. So... why is he responsible for returning 20% of his signing bonus? Because he had no intention of playing for the Pats this year, and if he returned, it would be to make him eligible for free agency next year. Here is an interesting article which touches on the increase in fines for holding out (agreed to by the player association with the last CBA) and McCardell's take. McCardell did the same thing, but instead of being traded in Week 1, he was traded later in the season. Holding out hurts more than ever Jeffri Chadiha, SI.com When I recently saw San Diego Chargers wide receiver Keenan McCardell sitting at his locker inside the team facility, I couldn't resist the opportunity. I wanted to know what he thought about the holdouts being staged by two other wideouts: New England's Deion Branch and Denver's Ashley Lelie. Specifically, I wanted McCardell's thoughts on the money both players were losing. Thanks to rules changes agreed upon by the NFL and the NFL Players Association during their latest negotiations to extend the CBA, Branch and Lelie are earning $14,000 in fines for every day of training camp they miss. McCardell can sympathize with their situations. The 15-year veteran held out for five months when he played for the Tampa Bay Buccaneers during the 2004 season. His headstrong move eventually forced a trade to San Diego, but McCardell also lost roughly $700,000 in wages and had to repay $1.5 million in bonus money after the Bucs won an arbitration hearing claiming he had violated his contract. So when McCardell talked about Branch and Lelie, he immediately offered his support. "I respect what those guys are going through," McCardell said. "People think these deals are just about the money, but that's only part of the issue. It's about a principle. It's about saying you're not going to let somebody treat you wrong." Actually, these holdouts are about the money, more than ever. The maximum fine for missing training camp was $6,000 when McCardell wanted the Bucs to give him a new deal. Now that it has more than doubled, there is no way most of the players in the league can afford to go the route Lelie and Branch have chosen. The whole point of holding out is to leverage a team into giving a player the money he believes he deserves. Under the current rules, which didn't receive much publicity when they were announced last month, the players don't have much power to force a team into doing anything. All they can do is hope they've saved enough to marshal a decent fight -- and that a team won't go after their bonus money if the fight wages on too long. When I asked McCardell why the players agreed to this, he said the owners were adamant about this concession being part of the finalized CBA deal. I can see their point. Once you look at the financial situations of Lelie and Branch, you see that they're both mired in a losing proposition. As of Tuesday, Branch had missed 20 days of camp, meaning he's already $280,000 in the hole in a season when he's scheduled to make $1.065 million -- although the team has not levied the penalty yet. Lelie's training camp fines now also total $280,000. The Broncos also fined him $11,000 for missing a three-day minicamp, and he lost a $100,000 workout bonus by not participating in Denver's offseason program. That's $391,000 for a player whose base salary is $600,000. The even bigger problem for both men is that they have a long way to go before their teams can even feel the impact of their absences. If Branch wants to see how badly the Patriots miss him -- he is their best receiver -- he'll have to hope Tom Brady can't develop any chemistry with his other targets during the season opener. Branch has simply been around long enough that the coaches realize he doesn't need as much work at this time of year. (They also know they can keep him around with a franchise designation once he becomes a free agent after this season). Lelie, on the other hand, faces an entirely different set of long odds. He has teammates who still care about him, but there aren't many people in the Denver locker room who think he's making a smart move with his timing. The Broncos already have Rod Smith and newly acquired Javon Walker and they're certain to find a third and fourth receiver from a handful of younger candidates. In other words, they don't need Lelie. And unlike Branch, who actually has been offered a contract, Lelie has no indication that the Broncos are interested in working with him. That said, both players appear willing to ride this path right into the regular season. This is the dilemma both men face now. Pride is on the line as well. Saving face becomes part of the decision-making process. Even if there's a chance that they won't lose all the money they've been fined -- some teams have been known to settle on a less painful punishment after a player reports -- they've each been holding out so long that giving in now just feels like a harder thing to do. When I asked McCardell how he handled such a drawn-out drama, he said he didn't regret it. He says the stance he took gave other players a reason to fight for what they believed they deserved. To this day, McCardell says younger veterans approach him and thank him for holding his ground. "I've had guys like Edgerrin James tell me how much that meant to them. They know that if you don't stand for something, then you probably stand for nothing." That will have to be the attitude that Lelie and Branch take as the regular season approaches. Let's face it: Their chances of winning out don't look good here, especially considering how other recent holdouts have fared. McCardell obviously took a big financial hit after forcing his way out of town. Javon Walker wound up returning to the Green Bay Packers after his holdout last summer. And just about every other veteran who balked about a bad contract last offseason wound up arriving to training camp on time. It's just the nature of the business. It's hard to handle losing all that money when the leverage is on the other side. That's why it's going to be interesting to watch how Branch and Lelie handle the coming weeks. They're reaching a point where they have to be questioning how much longer they can go, how much financial pain they can take. It's a feeling McCardell knows well and he understands every man has to understand how much he can handle. But after Branch and Lelie, I doubt many other players will take such a hard stance. Once you add all the numbers up, the risk simply doesn't measure up to the potential reward. Simply put, holding out violates the terms of his contract, whether he returns week 1 or week 10, or gets traded. He is responsible for the fines during training camp, and the preceeding case of McCardell shows he is responsible for the prorated signing bonus of the year(s) he violated the terms of his contract. Edited September 14, 2006 by charty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bushey Posted September 14, 2006 Share Posted September 14, 2006 The Pats are done. They are cheap and it will cost them. They almost got beat by the Bills. This will be a long long long year for the patties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charty Posted September 14, 2006 Share Posted September 14, 2006 The Pats are done. They are cheap and it will cost them. They almost got beat by the Bills. This will be a long long long year for the patties. Good analysis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted September 14, 2006 Share Posted September 14, 2006 it seems like there's really no way for branch to get out of paying the daily fines. but what exactly does the CBA have to say about paying back the signing bonus? either way though, branch comes out ahead with the contract he signed in seattle versus what the pats were offering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duchess Jack Posted September 14, 2006 Share Posted September 14, 2006 The CBA says that if he plays the final games of the season, that it counts for a season. These are not branch's rules, but the leagues. His intentions to take advantage of the rules mean nothing. Maybe the league should close that loophole, but rules are rules. I agree with the above. Make him pay his fines. But I cannot see how they have any claim to his signing bonus when they agreed to trade him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bring Back Pat!!! Posted September 14, 2006 Share Posted September 14, 2006 The Pats are done. They are cheap and it will cost them. They almost got beat by the Bills. This will be a long long long year for the patties. Wow, the cheap team with two players that are the highest (or darn close) paid at their position? Interesting. You say cheap, I say smart. The Pats pay for the players they feel are worth it. They felt, in this instance, that the price was too high for a guy still under contract. When was the last time they gave a HUGH contract to a guy that was a bust? Gonna be hard to find one. Beisel is a bust, but they barely paid him anything. Other guys have busted as well, but they don't get left holding the bag for their contract when their gone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiskey Pimp Posted September 14, 2006 Share Posted September 14, 2006 either way though, branch comes out ahead with the contract he signed in seattle versus what the pats were offering. Everyone comes out fine I think. Branch gets his money and still gets to be on a SB contender. The Seahawks get a great WR to try to get back to the SB and the Pats get a 1st round pick for next year for a player they would have got nothing for otherwise. Win-win-win situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bushey Posted September 14, 2006 Share Posted September 14, 2006 Wow, the cheap team with two players that are the highest (or darn close) paid at their position? Interesting. You say cheap, I say smart. The Pats pay for the players they feel are worth it. They felt, in this instance, that the price was too high for a guy still under contract. When was the last time they gave a HUGH contract to a guy that was a bust? Gonna be hard to find one. Beisel is a bust, but they barely paid him anything. Other guys have busted as well, but they don't get left holding the bag for their contract when their gone. The Pats did not get better by letting Branch go. Listening to the comments by the highest paid players on the team tells me that they are less than happy with the hard line taken by management. The Pats are a very good franchise and won't be down too long, but this is going to be a long year in a very tough league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill2 Posted September 14, 2006 Share Posted September 14, 2006 that is retarded. the pats give express permission to seek a trade, and then cry tampering when the jets and branch discuss what it's going to take to get the trade done? that is absolutely ridiculous. [/quote have you read all of the above posts? the jets were not allowed to share with branch what they offered-ehich they did. doing so violated the rules. pats will win this grievance against the jets-just depends what they get for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted September 14, 2006 Share Posted September 14, 2006 have you read all of the above posts? the jets were not allowed to share with branch what they offered-ehich they did. doing so violated the rules. pats will win this grievance against the jets-just depends what they get for it. uhh, how the hell is branch supposed to seek a trade without discussing what the trade will be for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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