pseudolefty Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 From a fantasy football perspective, I was wondering how the kneel down at the 3-minute mark was affecting people. Sometimes, those garbage yards and points make the difference. In my case, it was the only time I could let out a sigh of relief as my opponent had Reggie Bush and only needed one more score to beat me. In other cases, I could see where another score would've helped and potential garbage yards from Romo and WRs going back the other way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockerbraves Posted December 11, 2006 Author Share Posted December 11, 2006 You're wrong. You epitomize everyting that's wrong with football fans these days. You are the reason we have to put up with all the cross-promotion nonsense and pathetic announcers that real football fans constantly complain about. You don't care about football, you want to be "entertained". It's not about entertaining people, it's about winning championships. At that point in the game, running 30 seconds off the clock is far more important than scoring more points or "entertaining" the novice fan at home. Go watch "Desperate Housewives", go play Madden 2007, go beat off, whatever. Leave the football decisions to those who know what they're doing. So if I am kicking your ass you would prefer for me to let up? Did your dad let you win all the time too? Come on now be man. Sounds more like you are the one that watches Desperate Housewives while you beat off. By the way, are you a cat lover too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vet Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 That's exactly why you don't insult your opponent. To me that's bulletin board material for the Cowboys. I'm not saying the Saints should have tried to score. What I am saying is there are lots of other play calls that would have produced the same results as taking a knee without insulting the other team. Inside 2 minute perhaps but 3 minutes was abit to soon to do that to a coach of Parcell's status. Parcells is smart enough to know that when you're up by 24 with 3 minutes to play, your goal is not to increase your lead or to "entertain" the fans. Your goal at that point is very simply to get the clock to zero. The most efficient way to do that, without risking a turnover or injury to your players, is to have your QB take the snap and take a knee. It's just smart football. Payton probably learned that from Parcells and Parcells probably recognized it as the smartest play the Saints could run. Interesting how you've changed your argument from wanting to be "entertained" to now concern over "insulting" the other team. Seems to me like you just don't understand the basics of football. Are you really John Rocker? You seem about as intelligent as that dolt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 From a fantasy football perspective, I was wondering how the kneel down at the 3-minute mark was affecting people. Sometimes, those garbage yards and points make the difference. In my case, it was the only time I could let out a sigh of relief as my opponent had Reggie Bush and only needed one more score to beat me. In other cases, I could see where another score would've helped and potential garbage yards from Romo and WRs going back the other way. In one of my leagues, the -5 rushing yards for Brees made the difference to a result. The guy who was winning by 0.4 lost by 0.1 or thereabouts. I wonder why Payton didn't have his backup QB out there kneeling? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 (edited) That's exactly why you don't insult your opponent. To me that's bulletin board material for the Cowboys. I'm not saying the Saints should have tried to score. What I am saying is there are lots of other play calls that would have produced the same results as taking a knee without insulting the other team. Inside 2 minute perhaps but 3 minutes was abit to soon to do that to a coach of Parcell's status. Well, if they're not going to go for the endzone, that takes passing out of the equation. So, what you're going to see is a bunch of two-yard runs up the middle. And that's about as "entertaining" as taking a knee. You have this whole "insulting" thing backwards. Payton was absolutely kicking Parcells' ass throughout this matchup. Coaches get "insulted" when you run up the score, not when you lift your boot off of their throat with three minutes left in a blowout. Payton's decision to kneel down with three minutes left in the game was a sign of respect. Edited December 11, 2006 by Bill Swerski Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockerbraves Posted December 11, 2006 Author Share Posted December 11, 2006 Interesting how you've changed your argument from wanting to be "entertained" to now concern over "insulting" the other team. Seems to me like you just don't understand the basics of football. Are you really John Rocker? You seem about as intelligent as that dolt. Have never changed my concern for the right thing to do in regard to this situation. It's always been about not insulting your defeated opponent by laying down. Most good teams don't appreciate the pity kneel down especially in their house. Throw in the gatorade shower in week 13 and if I'm a Cowboy fan (which I'm not) I want a piece of those Saints. That's football 101. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 By the way, are you a cat lover too? Nothing wrong with cats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 In one of my leagues, the -5 rushing yards for Brees made the difference to a result. The guy who was winning by 0.4 lost by 0.1 or thereabouts. yeah that would be me. good thing i was already out of the playoffs, or i mighta busted my noggin doing this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockerbraves Posted December 11, 2006 Author Share Posted December 11, 2006 Well, if they're not going to go for the endzone, that takes passing out of the equation. So, what you're going to see is a bunch of two-yard runs up the middle. And that's about as "entertaining" as taking a knee. Payton simply demonstrated he's a rookie coach, so maybe we should give hime the benefit of the doubt this time. However by taking the knee he essentially took the ball out of the cowboys hands. No way could they have gone to a 2 minute offense like you see every team do regardless of the score each and every Sunday fighting to the end regardless of the score. Instead we saw the Cowboys humbled by having to kneel down themselves. It was just sad to see a proud team do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xMRogers Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 didn't see the end, but I'd think this had more to do with coach philosophy of "20+ pt deficit, 3 min to play - ok, TD, 2ptr, onside, TD, 2ptr, onside TD...and we're right back in it", so NO said - run out the clock to biggest extent possible, and avoid Turnover or injury / then Dallas did the same for injury sake once they realized it was over. Doubt respect/disrespect had much to do with it. EIther coach say anythign about it yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vet Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 ...if I'm a Cowboy fan (which I'm not) I want a piece of those Saints... That's the difference between being a fan and being a player or coach. If you're a Cowboy fan (which you're not), you're insulted and you want a piece of those Saints. If you're a Cowboy player or a coach, or even an educated football fan, you understand that the Saints are simply running the best play to meet their objective at that point in the game. I don't expect you to understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockerbraves Posted December 11, 2006 Author Share Posted December 11, 2006 (edited) didn't see the end, but I'd think this had more to do with coach philosophy of "20+ pt deficit, 3 min to play - ok, TD, 2ptr, onside, TD, 2ptr, onside TD...and we're right back in it", so NO said - run out the clock to biggest extent possible, and avoid Turnover or injury / then Dallas did the same for injury sake once they realized it was over. Doubt respect/disrespect had much to do with it. EIther coach say anythign about it yet? Only coach that mentioned it was Madden. Certainly can't see Parcell saying anything. That's for sure. Wasn't much conversation between the two coaches after the game. Let's put it this way there wasn't much eye contact or hugs after the game. Wouldn't surprise me at all if once Payton got back home if he didn't call Parcell to make sure he was OK with the way the game ended. Again, I don't think Parcell would say it bothered him and I think Parcell is done giving him anymore advice anyway. Edited December 11, 2006 by Rockerbraves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 yeah that would be me. good thing i was already out of the playoffs, or i mighta busted my noggin doing this Even more galling, a kneeldown is usually -1. Brees managed to have his add up to 5, from four kneeldowns. I'd like to see kneeldowns ignored for statistical purposes anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xMRogers Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 what would have been funny is if on the 4th one, he "fakes" the kneeldown and takes off up the middle for a touchdown then runs over to the star and starts jumpign up and down man, i'd have paid to see that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajncajn Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 Have never changed my concern for the right thing to do in regard to this situation. It's always been about not insulting your defeated opponent by laying down. Most good teams don't appreciate the pity kneel down especially in their house. Throw in the gatorade shower in week 13 and if I'm a Cowboy fan (which I'm not) I want a piece of those Saints. That's football 101. Honestly, how would you know how teams would feel in this situation? You're not a coach nor a player & I seriously doubt you've ever been in that situation. The Saints didn't "lay down", they thoroughly beat them. The only thing scoring again would do is add insult to injury. Payton likely did the kneel-down both out of respect and to prevent injury on a senseless play. If I were a Cowboys player or coach I'd be more relieved it was over than pissed that they knelt down. I would think they'd be more mad at themselves than mad at the Saints. Being pissed at teh Saints for beating them would only make them look like a bunch of sore losers. Only coach that mentioned it was Madden. Certainly can't see Parcell saying anything. That's for sure. Wasn't much conversation between the two coaches after the game. Let's put it this way there wasn't much eye contact or hugs after the game. Wouldn't surprise me at all if once Payton got back home if he didn't call Parcell to make sure he was OK with the way the game ended. Again, I don't think Parcell would say it bothered him and I think Parcell is done giving him anymore advice anyway. That's bull, after the game was over Parcells & Payton met on the field & you could see Parcells looking Payton in the eye and telling him he did a good job as they shook hands. If you didn't see it you can watch the highlight film on NFL.com, it's shown at the very end. what would have been funny is if on the 4th one, he "fakes" the kneeldown and takes off up the middle for a touchdown then runs over to the star and starts jumpign up and down man, i'd have paid to see that I was thinking the exact same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Waterboy Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 Perhaps because you don't want any of your players (even the second-stringers) to suffer an injuries in a game that's already been decided? Nice, but that clearly wasn't Payton's motive. Brees was still in the game. And I'm normally not one to hang around here and pretend I know what's up, but being afraid of bench players getting hurt? Man, that's soft. Garbage time is a great time to play reserves and get them sharp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ziachild007 Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 You have this whole "insulting" thing backwards. Payton was absolutely kicking Parcells' ass throughout this matchup. Coaches get "insulted" when you run up the score, not when you lift your boot off of their throat with three minutes left in a blowout. Payton's decision to kneel down with three minutes left in the game was a sign of respect. The score had already been ran up at that point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 (edited) Payton simply demonstrated he's a rookie coach, so maybe we should give hime the benefit of the doubt this time. Yeah, he "demonstrated he's a rookie coach" by beating the hottest (and arguably the best) team in the NFC and schooling a future HOF coach. However by taking the knee he essentially took the ball out of the cowboys hands. No way could they have gone to a 2 minute offense like you see every team do regardless of the score each and every Sunday fighting to the end regardless of the score. And that was their objective. They were up by 25 points with 3 minutes left in the game, so they wanted to run time off of the clock. Payton also didn't want to disrespect his mentor by running up the score. You're beginning to catch on... Instead we saw the Cowboys humbled by having to kneel down themselves. It was just sad to see a proud team do that. What did you expect them to do? Try to put up 25 points in two minutes? You've been playing too much X-Box. What happens when Romo gets tackled awkwardly and tears his ACL while trying to score 3 TDs, a two-point conversion, and a FG in two minutes? As Vet said, you need to realize that Parcells coaches his team to win games. He doesn't care about entertaining you or appeasing fantasy owners. If he needs to score 25 points in two minutes to win a game, he'd rather take a knee, protect his players from further injury, and let them fight another day. If you have a problem with that, you need to switch over to WWE, Survivor, or any of the other entertainment-based trash on TV. Edited December 11, 2006 by Bill Swerski Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 (edited) Nice, but that clearly wasn't Payton's motive. Brees was still in the game. Yeah, he was in the game to take a snap and kneel down, rather than drop back and risk injury. Thanks for proving my point. And I'm normally not one to hang around here and pretend I know what's up, but being afraid of bench players getting hurt? Man, that's soft. Man, you know crap about football. Garbage time is a great time to play reserves and get them sharp. There was THREE MINUTES left in the game. How much "practice" do you suppose they'd get in that time? Edited December 11, 2006 by Bill Swerski Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockerbraves Posted December 11, 2006 Author Share Posted December 11, 2006 (edited) Honestly, how would you know how teams would feel in this situation? You're not a coach nor a player & I seriously doubt you've ever been in that situation. The Saints didn't "lay down", they thoroughly beat them. The only thing scoring again would do is add insult to injury. Payton likely did the kneel-down both out of respect and to prevent injury on a senseless play. If I were a Cowboys player or coach I'd be more relieved it was over than pissed that they knelt down. I would think they'd be more mad at themselves than mad at the Saints. Being pissed at teh Saints for beating them would only make them look like a bunch of sore losers. That's bull, after the game was over Parcells & Payton met on the field & you could see Parcells looking Payton in the eye and telling him he did a good job as they shook hands. If you didn't see it you can watch the highlight film on NFL.com, it's shown at the very end. I was thinking the exact same thing. Sorry that you never had the experience to play or coach competitively for a proud team. I can tell you from my experience the last thing you want is your opponent showing pity on you especially if they are sincere. Again, no one is saying the Saints needed to score, but don't be so obvious about it. Yes maybe in the last 1:30 but not with 3 minutes left. I'll have to look at it again, but I made a point to look last night to see them meet at the end of the game and in my opinion it didn't look to friends chit chatting. Maybe it was the gatorade that prevented Parcell from giving Payton a more friendly firm hand shake. It may look like I'm trying to make a big deal about this, however I have been in that situation a couple of times both as a player and a coach and I'm just telling you if Parcell still has any competitive blood still flowing thru those veins, it was high blood pressure those last 3 minutes watching his pupil telling his teacher how much he respects him by taking a knee way before the approriate time. Edited December 11, 2006 by Rockerbraves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajncajn Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 Sorry that you never had the experience to play or coach competitively for a proud team. I can tell you from my experience the last thing you want is your opponent showing pity on you especially if they are sincere. Again, no one is saying the Saints needed to score, but don't be so obvious about it. Yes maybe in the last 1:30 but not with 3 minutes left. I'll have to look at it again, but I made a point to look last night to see them meet at the end of the game and in my opinion it didn't look to friends chit chatting. Maybe it was the gatorade that prevented Parcell from giving Payton a more friendly firm hand shake. It may look like I'm trying to make a big deal about this, however I have been in that situation a couple of times both as a player and a coach and I'm just telling you if Parcell still has any competitive blood still flowing thru those veins, it was high blood pressure those last 3 minutes watching his pupil telling his teacher how much he respects him by taking a knee way before the approriate time. Maybe not everyone is as sore a loser as you. Obviously you're the only one here, or anywhere else for that matter, that thought the Cowboys should be offended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 (edited) Sorry that you never had the experience to play or coach competitively for a proud team. I can tell you from my experience the last thing you want is your opponent showing pity on you especially if they are sincere. And apparently the teams that you've played/coached on never utilized the concepts of "sportsmanship" and "common sense." I have been in that situation a couple of times both as a player and a coach and I'm just telling you if Parcell still has any competitive blood still flowing thru those veins, it was high blood pressure those last 3 minutes watching his pupil telling his teacher how much he respects him by taking a knee way before the approriate time. If Payton or Parcells makes a serious attempt to score in the last three minutes of a 25-point blowout, they either have one of their offensive players on their fantasy teams or care more about "entertaining" you than playing the game the right way. Either way, they would not be doing their jobs. Edited December 11, 2006 by Bill Swerski Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockerbraves Posted December 11, 2006 Author Share Posted December 11, 2006 Yeah, he "demonstrated he's a rookie coach" by beating the hottest (and arguably the best) team in the NFC and schooling a future HOF coach. Last time I checked he's still considered a rookie coach which means he still has alot to learn about how the game is suppose to be played in the NFL much like Sabin last season. Hopefully Payton will teach his players to at least act like they have been there before instead of dumping gatorade on him in the 13th game of the NFL season. If I were Parcell given the same situation maybe he should start taking a knee in the middle of the 4th quarter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunther Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 Honestly, how would you know how teams would feel in this situation? You're not a coach nor a player & I seriously doubt you've ever been in that situation. The Saints didn't "lay down", they thoroughly beat them. The only thing scoring again would do is add insult to injury. Payton likely did the kneel-down both out of respect and to prevent injury on a senseless play. If I were a Cowboys player or coach I'd be more relieved it was over than pissed that they knelt down. I would think they'd be more mad at themselves than mad at the Saints. Being pissed at teh Saints for beating them would only make them look like a bunch of sore losers. I agree with this, I didn't find it unnerving that they chose to take the knee. I will admit that I was actually surprised the Saints did that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockerbraves Posted December 11, 2006 Author Share Posted December 11, 2006 And apparently the teams that you've played/coached on never utilized the concepts of "sportsmanship" and "common sense." Hey if they want me to I'll show mercy, but please don't show mercy or pity for my team. In other words don't give me that 25 foot putt on the 18th hole after kicking my ass all round. I'll be the one to pick up or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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