Grits and Shins Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 One thing is clear ... there is NO scenario where Team A wins the tie-breaker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 Supposing Team A swept Team C, but due to a scheduling quirk, Team B never played either of Team A or Team C - would you advance Team A in that situation? Then H2H wouldn't apply, would it? Just because you don't think it is fair, or because you don't understand how to apply it, it doesn't make H2H an invalid tiebreaker. It's the first tiebreaker in our dynasty league, and it gets invoked every year, sometimes between 3 or 4 teams, because the league is so competitive. We've never had anyone whining about it, the league is a H2H league. If people don't like the H2H aspect, change the format of the league. If the rules say the competition is H2H, and the 1st tiebreaker is H2H, follow the rules. Simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 (edited) There's clearly support in the NFL rulebook to interpret it as requiring a clean sweep, especially as it relates to tiebreakers between teams not in the same division. You're wrong. link TO BREAK A TIE WITHIN A DIVISION If, at the end of the regular season, two or more clubs in the same division finish with identical won-lost-tied percentages, the following steps will be taken until a champion is determined. Two Clubs 1. Head-to-head (best won-lost-tied percentage in games between the clubs). Three or More Clubs (Note: If two clubs remain tied after third or other clubs are eliminated during any step, tie breaker reverts to step 1 of the two-club format). 1. Head-to-head (best won-lost-tied percentage in games among the clubs). TO BREAK A TIE FOR THE WILD-CARD TEAM If it is necessary to break ties to determine the two Wild-Card clubs from each conference, the following steps will be taken. 1. If the tied clubs are from the same division, apply division tie breaker. 2. If the tied clubs are from different divisions, apply the following steps. Two Clubs 1. Head-to-head, if applicable. Three or More Clubs (Note: If two clubs remain tied after third or other clubs are eliminated, tie breaker reverts to step 1 of applicable two-club format.) 1. Apply division tie breaker to eliminate all but the highest ranked club in each division prior to proceeding to step 2. The original seeding within a division upon application of the division tie breaker remains the same for all subsequent applications of the procedure that are necessary to identify the two Wild-Card participants. 2. Head-to-head sweep. (Applicable only if one club has defeated each of the others or if one club has lost to each of the others.) Since Team A has lost to each of the two other teams, by rule the three club tiebreaker point 2 is applied, making Team C the owner of the wildcard spot. Team C has defeated each of the other two teams. Clearly & incontrovertably. Edited December 12, 2006 by Bronco Billy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easy n Dirty Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 You're wrong. link Yeah, this is the same link I provided earlier, and also the link that I quoted in an earlier response - although it might be asking a bit too much for you to actually read other responses in the thread, or to even read the link that you are providing. here, I'll help you - per the link that you provided, in breaking ties for a wildcard between three or more teams, the H2H tiebreaker is applied as follows: "2. Head-to-head sweep. (Applicable only if one club has defeated each of the others or if one club has lost to each of the others.)" It would seem that I am not the one here who doesn't understand how to apply a H2H tiebreaker in this instance...your dynasty league notwithstanding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballjoe Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 One thing is clear ... there is NO scenario where Team A wins the tie-breaker. If this is true have the Commish flip a coin between B & C. Make an adjustment in the rules for next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 "2. Head-to-head sweep. (Applicable only if one club has defeated each of the others or if one club has lost to each of the others.)" The rule is plainly written, as I explained above. Team C has defeated each of the others, Team A has lost to each of the others. The rule applies. Why is this so difficult for you to understand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 (edited) You're wrong. link So to spell it out, if you want to adhere to how the NFL does it: TO BREAK A TIE FOR THE WILD-CARD TEAM If it is necessary to break ties to determine the two Wild-Card clubs from each conference, the following steps will be taken. 1. If the tied clubs are from the same division, apply division tie breaker. 2. If the tied clubs are from different divisions, apply the following steps. Three or More Clubs (Note: If two clubs remain tied after third or other clubs are eliminated, tie breaker reverts to step 1 of applicable two-club format.) 1. Apply division tie breaker to eliminate all but the highest ranked club in each division prior to proceeding to step 2. The original seeding within a division upon application of the division tie breaker remains the same for all subsequent applications of the procedure that are necessary to identify the two Wild-Card participants. 2. Head-to-head sweep. (Applicable only if one club has defeated each of the others or if one club has lost to each of the others.) 3. Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the conference. 4. Best won-lost-tied percentage in common games, minimum of four. 5. Strength of victory. 6. Strength of schedule. 7. Best combined ranking among conference teams in points scored and points allowed. 8. Best combined ranking among all teams in points scored and points allowed. 9. Best net points in conference games. 10. Best net points in all games. 11. Best net touchdowns in all games. 12. Coin toss So step 1: Apply division tie breaker to eliminate all but the highest rank club in each division prior to proceeding to step 2. This will result in 1 team from each division. So it appears that team A and C were in a division together having played each other twice. They split H2H, so the one with the best division record eliminates the other, if they are tied on division record, then best H2H PERCENTAGE amoung common opponents. After that tie-break has been applied either Team A or Team C, but not both, will be tied with Team B. At which point you revert H2H between 2 clubs. If Team A survives the division tie-breaker, Team B advances on H2H over Team A If Team C survives the division tie-breaker, Team C advances on H2H over Team B Again under no circumstances does Team A advance. Edited December 12, 2006 by Grits and Shins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 If this is true have the Commish flip a coin between B & C. Make an adjustment in the rules for next year. Why in the hell would you do that? Team C already beat Team B H2H. How does that rate Team C getting screwed into a coin flip? Guys! This isn't that difficult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easy n Dirty Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 (edited) The rule is plainly written, as I explained above. Team C has defeated each of the others, Team A has lost to each of the others. The rule applies. Why is this so difficult for you to understand? No no no. Team C has certainly not swept the other two teams H2H, and Team A has certainly not been swept by the others H2H. There is no instance of a H2H sweep here. NFL rules don't define "sweep", but I don't see how anyone could argue that a "sweep" took place here. Understand that per the NFL tiebreakers, you would never have a three team tiebreaker for the wildcard where two of the teams involved had played each other more than once. After applying step 1 of the NFL tiebreaker, you will by definition be left with teams from different divisions, who by definition have only played each other once (or not at all). alchico hasn't chipped in to tell us what the story is in his league, but I think it's safe to assume that Teams A and C are in the same division, since they played each other twice. If this is true, then the wildcard tiebreaker plays out as follows: Step 1 - apply divisional tiebreakers to eliminate all but one team from each division. Within the division that includes Teams A and C, this step would eliminate Team C based on total points (A and C split H2H). Step 2 - for remaining teams, apply the H2H tiebreaker only in instances of a clean sweep. Team B beat Team A in their only meeting and therefore advances to the wildcard. Blitz - I think you and I are on the same page by now. My only disagreement with your last post is with part of the edit (in blue?). alchico hasn't given us enough info here, but my approach would be to apply his league tiebreakers and only revert to NFL procedures to the extent his league rules are inadequate. So I would use NFL rules to interpret how the H2H tiebreaker is applied, but I don't think I'd go so far as to insert new tiebreakers like division record or H2H record against common opponents if they are not already in his rule book. I think if his league uses total points as the second tiebreaker, and if that's what is in his rules, then that's what they should go to after H2H. Seems to me the NFL rules are necessary only to resolve how H2H is applied in this instance. Two things are for certain - Team A should not advance, and this is not as simple and clear cut as BB would have us believe. LOL @ "clearly and incontrovertably (sic)". Edited December 12, 2006 by Easy n Dirty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballjoe Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 Why in the hell would you do that? Team C already beat Team B H2H. How does that rate Team C getting screwed into a coin flip? Guys! This isn't that difficult. Then why are we here discussing this? Apparently it is not clear to the Commish or he would have made that ruling. If I say, yes you are right will it make it happen? OK then, you are right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 don't know if this helps at all....but in these cases, the NFL applies cumulative head-to-head record among all tied teams....but this ONLY breaks the tie if one team is undefeated among the other tied teams. if one tied team does not have the head-to-head sweep, then it is on to the next tiebreaker. also, if there are multiple teams in the same division tied for a wildcard spot, the NFL eliminates the multiples using the divisional tiebreakers first, so that each division only ends up with one "nominee". i think if you use these two concepts you can come to a fairly reasonable resolution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easy n Dirty Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 (edited) don't know if this helps at all....but in these cases, the NFL applies cumulative head-to-head record among all tied teams....but this ONLY breaks the tie if one team is undefeated among the other tied teams. if one tied team does not have the head-to-head sweep, then it is on to the next tiebreaker. also, if there are multiple teams in the same division tied for a wildcard spot, the NFL eliminates the multiples using the divisional tiebreakers first, so that each division only ends up with one "nominee". i think if you use these two concepts you can come to a fairly reasonable resolution. Well, yeah, that may be what the NFL does, but Bronco Billy does it differently, and what's more, so does his precious dynasty league. Makes perfect sense to me to completely ignore NFL procedures and just follow the wisdom of BB. Why is everyone else finding this to be so difficult? EDIT - one point of clarification (probably obvious...to most) - the NFL will only apply H2H in this instance if one team is undefeated AND if that team has played everyone else in the tiebreaker. Or if one team is winless and again has played every other team in the tiebreaker. Edited December 12, 2006 by Easy n Dirty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alchico Posted December 12, 2006 Author Share Posted December 12, 2006 I agree with that. Seems unfair to put Team C past Team B given that Team B had less H2H opportunities within the group. It's unfortunate obviously that your rules don't speak to this - in my league, H2H can only be used to advance a team that beat everyone else in the tiebreaker, or to eliminate a team that lost to everyone else in the tiebreaker. If neither applies, you go to the next tiebreaker, which is total points. Under this system, team B gets the nod. But since your rules don't specificially stipulate that, you're in a tough spot. One possible solution is to apply the H2H tiebreaker in the same manner that the NFL would do it - I'm not sure what that is, but I'm gonna' look it up right now and post back. We have a default rule in our league that unanticipated tiebreaking situations get resolved by following NFL procedures to the extent possible, it's not a bad catch-all sorta' rule to deal with situations just like this one. In any event, I'm very curious to see how the commissioner concluded that team A advances - that seems the most unlikely outcome. Please tell us that Team A is not his team. One more question - are any of these teams in the same division? I only ask because that would be very relevant under NFL tiebreaking procedures. Team A and Team C are in the same division. 3 divisions of 4 teams. We play 1 game against each team and and twice against division foes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 (edited) No no no. Step 2 - for remaining teams, apply the H2H tiebreaker only in instances of a clean sweep. Team B beat Team A in their only meeting and therefore advances to the wildcard. LOL @ "clearly and incontrovertably (sic)". Well, yeah, that may be what the NFL does, but Bronco Billy does it differently, and what's more, so does his precious dynasty league. Makes perfect sense to me to completely ignore NFL procedures and just follow the wisdom of BB. Why is everyone else finding this to be so difficult? You are the only person using the word "clean" in regard to sweep. In short, you've invented your own definition to support your own argument. The word "clean" appears nowhere in the NFL definition. The word "sweep" applies to one team either beating both of the other teams (as Team C has done in this example) or one team being swept (as Team A has lost to both other teams). It is even clearly defined in the example provided in the NFL definition. LOL @ you for not being capable of reading and interpretting what is there, and instead inserting other meaningless crap in an attempt to cloud a clear issue. Edited December 12, 2006 by Bronco Billy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Misfit Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 The rule is plainly written, as I explained above. Team C has defeated each of the others, Team A has lost to each of the others. The rule applies. Why is this so difficult for you to understand? You're correct that the rule is plainly written. You're incorrect in your explanation. The rule simply says "Head-to-Head" without qualification, right? (I'm assuming if it said more, this wouldn't be getting discussed right now.) Even the NFL rules explicitly state how to interpret that in a 3-way tie -- and it is interpreted differently based on the playoff spot involved. Absent such explanation, applying "head-to-head" among three teams is nonsensical without explaining how that is to be interpreted. Plain meaning of the rule. Head-to-head involves two teams, like marriage involves two people. Obviously, a three-way tie was never contemplated as part of the rule, or it would have been explicitly stated. As such, you throw out the inapplicable tiebreaker and go to the next tiebreaker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 You're correct that the rule is plainly written. You're incorrect in your explanation. Absent such explanation, applying "head-to-head" among three teams is nonsensical without explaining how that is to be interpreted. Which the NFL clearly laid out in parentheses. It defined how to use H2H between 3 teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easy n Dirty Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 You are the only person using the word "clean" in regard to sweep. In short, you've invented your own definition to support your own argument. The word "clean" appears nowhere in the NFL definition. The word "sweep" applies to one team either beating both of the other teams (as Team C has done in this example) or one team being swept (as Team A has lost to both other teams). It is even clearly defined in the example provided in the NFL definition. LOL @ you for not being capable of reading and interpretting what is there, and instead inserting other meaningless crap in an attempt to cloud a clear issue. Now that alchico has responded and clarified that teams A and C are in the same division, confirming what was stated in this thread much earlier, even before your first post - how do you now feel that NFL tiebreakers should be applied here? NFL tiebreakers have no need to clarify the word "sweep" because as noted above, by the time you get to that step, you are left only with teams that have played each other once, if at all. When the Heat beat the Mavericks in the NBA Finals 4 games to 2 - was that a sweep? LOL @ me for thinking that you could be reasoned with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 You're correct that the rule is plainly written. You're incorrect in your explanation. The rule simply says "Head-to-Head" without qualification, right? (I'm assuming if it said more, this wouldn't be getting discussed right now.) Even the NFL rules explicitly state how to interpret that in a 3-way tie -- and it is interpreted differently based on the playoff spot involved. Absent such explanation, applying "head-to-head" among three teams is nonsensical without explaining how that is to be interpreted. Plain meaning of the rule. Head-to-head involves two teams, like marriage involves two people. Obviously, a three-way tie was never contemplated as part of the rule, or it would have been explicitly stated. As such, you throw out the inapplicable tiebreaker and go to the next tiebreaker. Exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easy n Dirty Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 You're correct that the rule is plainly written. You're incorrect in your explanation. The rule simply says "Head-to-Head" without qualification, right? (I'm assuming if it said more, this wouldn't be getting discussed right now.) Even the NFL rules explicitly state how to interpret that in a 3-way tie -- and it is interpreted differently based on the playoff spot involved. Absent such explanation, applying "head-to-head" among three teams is nonsensical without explaining how that is to be interpreted. Plain meaning of the rule. Head-to-head involves two teams, like marriage involves two people. Obviously, a three-way tie was never contemplated as part of the rule, or it would have been explicitly stated. As such, you throw out the inapplicable tiebreaker and go to the next tiebreaker. That's an option - I prefer going to NFL rules as a means of clarifying the H2H tiebreaker, but I can see your argument as well. Fortunately, in this situation, unless you completely misinterpret what the word "sweep" means, Team B prevails whether you do it your way or my way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 (edited) Now that alchico has responded and clarified that teams A and C are in the same division, confirming what was stated in this thread much earlier, even before your first post - how do you now feel that NFL tiebreakers should be applied here? NFL tiebreakers have no need to clarify the word "sweep" because as noted above, by the time you get to that step, you are left only with teams that have played each other once, if at all. When the Heat beat the Mavericks in the NBA Finals 4 games to 2 - was that a sweep? LOL @ me for thinking that you could be reasoned with. Okay, this is obviously incomprehensible to you. No where did it mention that this FF league was using NFL tiebreaking criteria, only that they were using H2H. The H2H results between the 3 teams are plain & clear. If you don't get it now, you never will. You are also obviously set in using your own definition for sweep for NFL tiebreakers, even though the NFL clearly spells out what it means by sweep, but which you refuse to accept. I'll catch you in another thread. Edited December 12, 2006 by Bronco Billy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 (edited) Blitz - I think you and I are on the same page by now. My only disagreement with your last post is with part of the edit (in blue?). alchico hasn't given us enough info here, but my approach would be to apply his league tiebreakers and only revert to NFL procedures to the extent his league rules are inadequate. So I would use NFL rules to interpret how the H2H tiebreaker is applied, but I don't think I'd go so far as to insert new tiebreakers like division record or H2H record against common opponents if they are not already in his rule book. I think if his league uses total points as the second tiebreaker, and if that's what is in his rules, then that's what they should go to after H2H. Seems to me the NFL rules are necessary only to resolve how H2H is applied in this instance. I believe you apply H2H percentage because the league rules do not specify that a 100% advantage is required. You then attempted to use the NFL rules to back your position. I'm fine with the NFL rules but you can't apply them partially. Either you go the NFL way and settle out the divisions FIRST and then proceed. Or you follow the league written rules and appy H2H. Edited December 12, 2006 by Grits and Shins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easy n Dirty Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 You are the only person using the word "clean" in regard to sweep. In short, you've invented your own definition to support your own argument. The word "clean" appears nowhere in the NFL definition. The word "sweep" applies to one team either beating both of the other teams (as Team C has done in this example) or one team being swept (as Team A has lost to both other teams). It is even clearly defined in the example provided in the NFL definition. LOL @ you for not being capable of reading and interpretting what is there, and instead inserting other meaningless crap in an attempt to cloud a clear issue. sweep Seems Websters has already picked up on the definition I invented less than an hour ago (see definition 2e). Again - the NFL sees no need to clarify sweep here because when applied properly, you would never have teams left at that point who had played each other more than once. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alchico Posted December 12, 2006 Author Share Posted December 12, 2006 My first inclination was to throw out the HTH and go to total points(2nd tiebreaker) since no team won all the games against the others. But absent any specific rule we are in a tough spot. Going to how the NFL does it does it, make sense but i'm also torn for the best HTH percentage theory. We definately will have a rule in place for next year but for this year it's going to suck for somebody. The really bad thing is human emotion is now involved because we know who the players are and who will win depending on the scenario we pick. Also it probably won't really matter which team does get in since they will have to play the #1 seed who is on a tear and is by far (over 200 pts) the leading scorer in the league. It does however mean something in the $$$$$ department since this is a big money league and the 4 teams that make the playoffs all get paid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 umm, i'm sort of glazing over the responses....is bronco billy trying to argue that team C going 1-1 against another team qualifies as a "sweep"? yeesh, there really are three possible outcomes here. you could ignore the head-to-head "sweep" (which actually, in the real world, means no losses), and just say team C has the highest head-to-head(-to-head) winning percentage. team C gets in. but then you're comparing teams that played each other a different number of times, and that's just a hugh mess, not to mention unfair. the second option is you look at the 3-way h2h2h records and see that there is no sweep, so you toss out h2h and go to points. team A wins. the third, and IMO best, option is to apply the NFL methodology (because then you actually have some clear-cut precedent). first you apply the tiebreakers to the teams in the same division, teams A and C. they split head-to-head, but A had more points so C is eliminated. then, once you're down to one team in each division, you apply the tiebreakers between team A and team B. team B won head-to-head in their only meeting. team B gets the playoff spot. so...you can make up a scenario whereby any of the three teams gets the playoff spot. but if you apply the clearly reasoned, impartial methodology of the NFL tiebreaker rules, then team B unquestionably comes out with the playoff spot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 (edited) umm, i'm sort of glazing over the responses....is bronco billy trying to argue that team C going 1-1 against another team qualifies as a "sweep"? yeesh, there really are three possible outcomes here. you could ignore the head-to-head "sweep" (which actually, in the real world, means no losses), and just say team C has the highest head-to-head(-to-head) winning percentage. team C gets in. but then you're comparing teams that played each other a different number of times, and that's just a hugh mess, not to mention unfair. the second option is you look at the 3-way h2h2h records and see that there is no sweep, so you toss out h2h and go to points. team A wins. the third, and IMO best, option is to apply the NFL methodology (because then you actually have some clear-cut precedent). first you apply the tiebreakers to the teams in the same division, teams A and C. they split head-to-head, but A had more points so C is eliminated. then, once you're down to one team in each division, you apply the tiebreakers between team A and team B. team B won head-to-head in their only meeting. team B gets the playoff spot. so...you can make up a scenario whereby any of the three teams gets the playoff spot. but if you apply the clearly reasoned, impartial methodology of the NFL tiebreaker rules, then team B unquestionably comes out with the playoff spot. There is no scenario where Team A makes the playoffs. The original post said team B had total points (by less than a point, .3). Edited December 12, 2006 by Grits and Shins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.