Easy n Dirty

Any Really Smart Christians Out There?

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I am surprised at this statement by Az. He knows his bible well.........Jesus is the word.....John 1:1. I think the bible is pretty clear that Jesus is the word given through men by God. I do agree that only the original language that it was written in would be accurate. You don't believe that the author's words could have been inspired by God? You don't think he could have played a role in the presentation of his word to everyone??

 

I do believe in the bible. I will not force my beliefs on anyone else. I want to know why people believe the way they do. I will be apologetic for my beliefs in the bible when asked. I did not write the bible or make the rules. Non believers need to stop blaming Christians for the rules God has made to protect us. If you don't believe, I am ok with that but don't call me holier than thou because I do believe in the promise and grace promised in the bible.

 

 

This is what I was just thinking earlier today.

 

 

Sorry Coyote, you sound just as kookoo as any Jihad extremist to me. Your dog and pony show just cements how silly organized religion can be.

 

I'll keep the faith and stay away from the whack jobs.

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I am surprised at this statement by Az. He knows his bible well.........Jesus is the word.....John 1:1. I think the bible is pretty clear that Jesus is the word given through men by God. I do agree that only the original language that it was written in would be accurate. You don't believe that the author's words could have been inspired by God? You don't think he could have played a role in the presentation of his word to everyone??

 

 

john 1:1 says jesus is "logos" -- which we translate as "the Word", but which really was a greek philosophical concept referring to the root of being, the order behind all things. john is specifically NOT talking about scripture. whenever the author of the fourth gospel refers to scripture (which to him, as a first century jew, would have been the old testament and more specifically, the septuagint), he uses the word "graphe", which means writing or scripture.

 

the gospel of john does NOT in ANY way equate the logos of god (incarnate in jesus) with the written word. to say otherwise (i.e., that jesus = the Word = the bible) is simply unequivocal error representative of intellectual laziness. according to john:

jesus = the Word (logos)

the Word (logos) ≠ scripture (graphe)

 

anyway, i believe a lot of things, both in and out of the bible, were "inspired by God". i don't believe god himself wrote any of them, and i certainly don't believe that a bunch of third century catholic bishops and late first century jewish rabbis managed to magically choose all of the books god wrote and eliminate all of the ones he didn't write -- and that the ones they chose magically fit together to constitute god's perfect handbook for mankind. i'm sorry, but that is one childish notion, and one that, ironically, finds almost no support in scripture itself. a few misquotations of "logos", a reference to the old testament being worthwhile for teaching and study in a second century treatise falsely attributed to peter -- that's about it. yet there are thousands of scriptural warnings against being bound to a bookish legalism, and against thinking god can be represented in human words and symbols. biblicism isn't even biblical.

 

none of the new testament writers thought they were writing god's words down. my favorite proof text of this fact is 1 corinthians 7:10-15, where paul is talking about divorce:

To the married I give this command—not I but the Lord—that the wife should not separate from her husband 11(but if she does separate, let her remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce his wife.

 

12 To the rest I say—I and not the Lord—that if any believer has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he should not divorce her.13 And if any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he consents to live with her, she should not divorce him. 14For the unbelieving husband is made holy through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy through her husband. Otherwise, your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy. 15But if the unbelieving partner separates, let it be so; in such a case the brother or sister is not bound. It is to peace that God has called you.

now if paul was essentially dictating a letter for God, writing down his perfect words (as the "bible-believing" viewpoint holds), then why would he be so unsure of himself? why would he be so careful to give more authority to what jesus said than to his own opinion about when divorce might be appropriate? if every word in the bible is equally perfect and inspired and not to be questioned, why is the very man writing the words down in this instance questioning the authority of his own words and drawing INequalities between his words and those of jesus?

 

like i said, the new testament writers didn't think they were writing down god's words. they thought they were telling the story -- in their own words, to the best of their ability, in the idiom of their own time and place -- of god's work in the world through jesus. and i submit that is the spirit in which we should read their words.

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Abuse of power in the name of religion is much more likely to be a big indictment against the person than the particular faith.

 

Yes, but it is a trait that is common to ALL faiths. And therein lies the rub. Religion is dangerous and has caused nothing but HUGH problems throughout history. Ergo, religions are inherently evil regardless of the people in them.

Edited by spain

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I am going to go ahead and say what alot of folks are thinking: You religious folks are nuttier than a shi@tehouse mouse and I for one do NOT want to spend eternity with you. Fry my ass in that Big Green Egg downstairs, but please dont make me hang out with these looney tunes bible thumpin freaks...

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There are many evangelicals that believe that Catholicism isn't true Christianity. Ephesians 2:8,9 pretty much discount the works based Catholic doctrine. Anything that allows people and not God the power to get to heaven pretty much ends it for me. If its not divine guidance, why would anyone bother?

 

And James 2:14-26 pretty much discounts the faith alone saves Protestant doctrine.

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Yes, but it is a trait that is common to ALL faiths. And therein lies the rub. Religion is dangerous and has caused nothing but HUGH problems throughout history. Ergo, religions are inherently evil regardless of the people in them.

 

As far as I know, it isn't a trait that has manifested itself in Buddhism, though I am open to correction on this. In large measure, though, you are right.

 

Religion was in fact a driver of progress at one time, being essential to the development of writing, literacy, philosophy, engineering and architecture amongst other things. Then the Age of Reason came along and since then, religion has essentially acted as an anchor on forward progress. It is the Great Divider.

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this discussions goes deeper than just to have or have not...... we are talking about man condemning man for difference in practice. we are are talking about damnation of morally good people because they don't follow the teaching or specific beliefs of christ or the christ.... we are talking about a faux moral superiority. there is a lack acknowledgement that other pathes could be righteous

 

well said

 

Live a good life. Be a good person. Do good things. Help where you can. After that, I let the chips fall where they may.

 

:D:D

 

isn't that the jist of it all....

faith is faith.. i have faith the sun will rise and set, galatica will find earth and when all looks bad my kids will make me smile...

 

until christianity evolves away from "we good you bad" it will hold less sway on humans..

 

and spain not all faiths say " we good you bad" but they almost all reacquire some kind of leap of faith.

 

kinda like looking for a gut shot striate...

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As far as I know, it isn't a trait that has manifested itself in Buddhism, though I am open to correction on this. In large measure, though, you are right.

 

Religion was in fact a driver of progress at one time, being essential to the development of writing, literacy, philosophy, engineering and architecture amongst other things. Then the Age of Reason came along and since then, religion has essentially acted as an anchor on forward progress. It is the Great Divider.

 

yup i can agree with this....

 

there are a myriad of other religions( many native american, tribal etc) that dont condone u if u dont believe..

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My definition of truth is more scientific than philosophical.

 

I want you to know that I respect your ridiculous illogical point of view though. :D

 

 

 

Like the scientific truth of how tiny your pee pee is?

 

Score! :D

Edited by Savage Beatings

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Like the scientific truth of how tiny your pee pee is?

 

Score! :D

 

 

:D

 

I have been pwnd.

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Faith in the existence of a higher power is no more or less absurd than faith in the absence of one.

 

 

But why do we cast that higher power in our own image, and castigate those that do not suscribe to it? Why would such omnipotence as necessary to create a universe be bound within our own human concepts of reality and emotion? Why must God love or hate?

 

EDIT: Not specifically coming at YOU with that Yo, I read the remainder of your posts. Just a question in general to the believers in the group.

Edited by cre8tiff

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What defies explanation?

 

 

 

My little ape brain goes TILT at the concept that the universe has an end... or it doesn't. :D

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My little ape brain goes TILT at the concept that the universe has an end... or it doesn't. :D

 

 

You explained it. Your brain can't comprehend it.

 

Assigning some arbitrary explanation to it is silly whether you use science or "faith".

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You explained it. Your brain can't comprehend it.

 

Assigning some arbitrary explanation to it is silly whether you use science or "faith".

 

Yes, assigning arbitrary explanations to things our brains cannot comprehend is little more than folklore and fable. But faith isn't so much about the aribrary explanation: it's the more general belief that an explanation does exist, even if we can't comprehend it. That fundamental part of faith is perfectly logical.

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That fundamental part of faith is perfectly logical.

 

 

You'd have to convince me of that, because I don't see it. I think you guys are assigning an arbitrary explanation to it. A "god" who nobody's ever seen is responsible? That's as logical to me as the flying spaghetti monster.

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You'd have to convince me of that, because I don't see it. I think you guys are assigning an arbitrary explanation to it. A "god" who nobody's ever seen is responsible? That's as logical to me as the flying spaghetti monster.

 

You seem unwilling or incapable of distinguishing between the dogma of a specific religion or faith and the more general proposition that all things that exist came into being "because" of something. Whether that something is a god, scientific principles, or merely Loaf is both subsequent and irrelevant to that preliminary, general point.

 

The fact that different brands of faiths later assign arbitrary explanations to things they can't comprehend does not change the base, core truth that all that is has a reason for being so.

Edited by yo mama

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You'd have to convince me of that, because I don't see it. I think you guys are assigning an arbitrary explanation to it. A "god" who nobody's ever seen is responsible? That's as logical to me as the flying spaghetti monster.

 

 

 

I think his point is an unproven hypothesis is of no greater value than an opinion based on faith. A pretty compelling statement.

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IMO, different religions = different Political parties.

 

All of them claim to be the 1 and only and all of them claim each other to be false. saying you are not judging anyone else's religion and believing in your own(whichever religion it may be) means you are a hypocrite. because each religion tells/teaches you that other religions are wrong. it forces you to judge other religions.

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merely Loaf

 

:D

 

Merely? Merely? How can you describe the Exalted Loaf in such a fashion? Heretic! Burn the witch! :D:bash:

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And James 2:14-26 pretty much discounts the faith alone saves Protestant doctrine.

 

 

Important scripture here, but it is not saying that works "saves" you. It says there should be works in a believers life, not that those works get you "saved". Most people calling themselves Christians need to use this scripture to check themselves.........are you walking the walk? It definitely does not disprove the Protestant take on Christianity.

 

Az said it very well in his post. The only difference between Az's position and mine is that I do believe that they were spirit led men telling the story for a purpose. I don't worship the bible.....its just a training manual that works.

 

Sorry about the bump.....should of just let this thread pass away.....but its Christmas. Merry Christmas!

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Important scripture here, but it is not saying that works "saves" you. It says there should be works in a believers life, not that those works get you "saved". Most people calling themselves Christians need to use this scripture to check themselves.........are you walking the walk? It definitely does not disprove the Protestant take on Christianity.

So "faith alone saves" but if you don't do works you still aren't saved? :D

 

(And the Catholic position is not that works alone will save you--you must have faith to be saved, but without works to go along with it, your salvation will not happen.)

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This is what I was just thinking earlier today.

Sorry Coyote, you sound just as kookoo as any Jihad extremist to me. Your dog and pony show just cements how silly organized religion can be.

 

I'll keep the faith and stay away from the whack jobs.

 

 

There is a big difference between organized religion and what I would consider my beliefs. I believe living biblically will lead to a fulfilling life. I do not believe you can attain this just by going to church or being involved in religion. I also think that having a "personal relationship" with Jesus or any God is impossible. I would never say that I know Jesus, some Christian circles would consider me unsaved. I will also say that I do not know exactly what it means when Jesus says he is the only way to father. Is it baptism? Is it asking him to come into your heart? Is it going to church once a week? I don't know anymore than you do but I can say I understand it and trust it because I have seen it impact a lot of lives. I also understand the skepticism, I used to be one.

 

Science is the crutch that people use to not accept something they do not understand. The fact that no doctor can tell you why your heart beats and the fact that we can't explain it should allow for the idea of a force outside of our own existence could be at work. It may not be God, it may be another species, it may be aliens........... I don't know, but I know we are not half as smart as we think we are. I think its illogical to say "because our science can't prove its there, it must not be there". That to me is being closed minded to any possibility that happens to be outside our capability of measurement. This has been proven over and over....the world is flat...the sun revolves around the earth...and so on and so on. Logically, I can deduce that God may be that other force that affects our world. It hasn't been proven he's not there and the odds are less than the "it all just happened theory", talk about faith!

 

I am not sure what you mean about dog and pony show, again its not my show and not my pony, I just ride on the bandwagon. I am admittedly a bandwagon jumper when it comes to these things so as soon as us humans figure it all out, I can stop giving my money to the church. That would be a plus for the family.

 

I have defended the war in Iraq on these pages and I still believe we need to support our troops. I will say that I do not think that Jesus would have gone to war in this situation and there has to be a better way. Love is a better weapon than force. My thoughts on immigration have changed, would Jesus send them back? God really has blessed America. We just don't use our blessings enough to bless others. We could feed this world. We could stop poverty. We could ease a lot of suffering on this earth. I do think a lot of Christians have it wrong. It is about saving humanity, that really was the purpose of what Jesus did on the cross. It would be unbelievable if we could truly take this message and apply it with our actions to the rest of the world. Merry Christmas

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BTW, Pascal had a lot more to offer as a philosopher than his lame wager.

 

 

I busted a Christian who was proselytizing me for offering up Pascal's Wager. :D

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