Bring Back Pat!!! Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Joe Gibbs is the only head coach in the history of the NFL to go to and win the Super Bowl with three different quarterbacks. This was all pre-salary cap. He didn't produce a powerhouse team and get on a roll like Walsh with Montana and Knoll with Bradshaw, etc. He took three very different teams to the Bowl, an accomplishment that hasn't been duplicated yet. He's one of the three best Head Coaches ever, and better than Parcells, imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skins Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 (edited) Joe Gibbs is the only head coach in the history of the NFL to go to and win the Super Bowl with three different quarterbacks. This was all pre-salary cap. He didn't produce a powerhouse team and get on a roll like Walsh with Montana and Knoll with Bradshaw, etc. He took three very different teams to the Bowl, an accomplishment that hasn't been duplicated yet. He's one of the three best Head Coaches ever, and better than Parcells, imo. Â Â Bingo. And this is an interesting analysis of expected wins in the postseason versus actual wins. Look at Bellichick in comparison with guys like Gibbs and Noll. That is very impressive. Â And on the subject of Parcells. Sure, he turned some teams around (although I dont think he did much with Dallas), but he didnt even coach the best four year stretch at any of those teams. Historically, that means he wasnt really the historically best coach on any of those teams he coached (for the Giants and Jets that goes back a ways to pre-modern era coaches). Edited February 1, 2007 by skins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Vatican Hitsquad Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Bingo. And this is an interesting analysis of expected wins in the postseason versus actual wins. Look at Bellichick in comparison with guys like Gibbs and Noll. That is very impressive. Â That link provides even MORE proof that Tom Flores should be in the Hall of Fame! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kansas State 2000 Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Interesting! Â Â Coach Expected Actual DIFF==========================================Bill Belichick 8- 8 13- 3 +4.9Joe Gibbs 13-10 17- 6 +3.7Chuck Noll 12-12 16- 8 +3.9Jimmy Johnson 6- 7 9- 4 +2.8Bill Walsh 8- 6 10- 4 +2.1 Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skins Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 That link provides even MORE proof that Tom Flores should be in the Hall of Fame! Â Â Flores was a very good coach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forever in debt to mo lewis Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Parcells teaches them well before pushing the birds from the nest   yeah thats a nice try slick...i mean, i know you knew i was talkin about manboobs in new york....but i was unaware that bill parcells introduced sean payton into the world of pro football and brought him up through the ranks....please ellaborate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Vatican Hitsquad Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 yeah thats a nice try slick...i mean, i know you knew i was talkin about manboobs in new york....but i was unaware that bill parcells introduced sean payton into the world of pro football and brought him up through the ranks....please ellaborate  Was Sean Payton an assistant coach under Parcells? That's right.  I win again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pope Flick Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Was Sean Payton an assistant coach under Parcells? That's right. Â I win again. Â Â Â http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_Payton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forever in debt to mo lewis Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Was Sean Payton an assistant coach under Parcells? That's right. Â I win again. Â Â lol...like i said...did bill parcells give sean payton his first job in the nfl? nope...simply hired him away from another club... Â what exactly did you win? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Heres the problem: Parcells belongs in the HOF in my opinion, because he was a great coach who did a lot of things very well as you point out. But the initial comment I was responding to equated him to Gibbs. Gibbs is a better coach than Parcells by every statistical measure except one which you keep harping on--Parcells was successful at multiple teams. While significant, that doesnt mean much to me when looking at overall achievment and unprecedented success. Gibbs had an almost unprecedented first run in the NFL and Parcells has had a longer very good career at multiple teams. He belongs in the HOF, but he never achieved the stunning success Gibbs did in his first run. Look at Gibbs percentages of post season wins, overall wins, and Super Bowl wins and appearances in that first run and it is staggering. Â Nothing Parcells has done is staggering. Just very very good with multiple teams over a long period of time. Longevity and adaptibility are great assets and make for a great coach, but they dont compare to what Gibbs accomplished. Â I think only 1 or 2 coaches compare statistically to what Gibbs did during that stretch, if that. If he hadnt returned to coaching, I think it would go down as the greatest statistical stretch of coaching in the modern era. now we have to factor in his current term into his overall stats. Â Â Here's another way to look at it: Â Parcells was an excellent coach in the '80s and early '90s. Gibbs was a phenominal coach in the '80s and early '90s. Â Parcells was a very good coach from the mid-90's through the early '00s. Gibbs was sitting on his ass and doing nothing from the mid-90's through the early '00s. Â Parcells and Gibbs were both pretty average coaches in the mid-'90s. Â No doubt that Gibbs was an incredible coach during those first 12 years with the Redskins. But he then took a 12-year hiatus from the NFL and found that the game had passed him by when he returned. The combination of what Parcells did with the Giants (two SB rings, 77-49) AND the way that he took three additional franchises from the dumps back to the playoffs (and one to the SB) puts him on the same level as Gibbs. Â Your misuse of the word "unprecedented" to describe what Gibbs did is nothing short of homerism and is an insult to more accomplished coaches such as Walsh and Noll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 (edited) Joe Gibbs is the only head coach in the history of the NFL to go to and win the Super Bowl with three different quarterbacks.  Parcells won SBs with mediocre QBs like Phil Simms and Jeff Hostettler... and got to another one with Bledsoe. What's your point?  He didn't produce a powerhouse team and get on a roll like Walsh with Montana and Knoll with Bradshaw, etc. He took three very different teams to the Bowl  Bullcrap. Gibbs' teams WERE "powerhouse teams" that were able to hold onto key players in the pre-cap/pre-free agency era. Same goes for the 49ers, whose '81 championship team was also [not] "very different" from their '88 and '89 championship teams.  You're making too much of QBs here. Terry Bradshaw was a mediocre system player, and it's not like Noll leaned on him heavily for those chamionships. IMO, they would've been in more trouble without Swann or Stallworth. And while Montana was obviously a HUGE part of Walsh's pass-heavy WCO, the Walsh-assembled team that Siefer inherited was still able to win with Steve Young. Not to mention that Walsh was able to win two of SF's five SBs without the greatest WR to ever play the game. Edited February 1, 2007 by Bill Swerski Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skins Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Here's another way to look at it:  Parcells was an excellent coach in the '80s and early '90s. Gibbs was a phenominal coach in the '80s and early '90s.  Parcells was a very good coach from the mid-90's through the early '00s. Gibbs was sitting on his ass and doing nothing from the mid-90's through the early '00s.  Parcells and Gibbs were both pretty average coaches in the mid-'90s.  No doubt that Gibbs was an incredible coach during those first 12 years with the Redskins. But he then took a 12-year hiatus from the NFL and found that the game had passed him by when he returned. The combination of what Parcells did with the Giants (two SB rings, 77-49) AND the way that he took three additional franchises from the dumps back to the playoffs (and one to the SB) puts him on the same level as Gibbs.  Your misuse of the word "unprecedented" to describe what Gibbs did is nothing short of homerism and is an insult to more accomplished coaches such as Walsh and Noll.   He didnt take three franchises from the dumps and back to playoffs, and even if he did, that wouldnt put him on the same level as the "phenomenal" Gibbs. Very good will never equal phenomenal no matter how hard you wish it in yer pretty little heart.  I do give him credit for getting the 9-7 Patriots to the SB in 1996. But they were 9-7. Not great. Just playing real well when it counted. Credit to him.  And his first year with Dallas when they went 10-6? They beat one team with a winning record. Wow.  Doug Drinen on Parcells (granted he doesnt like him but he knows his stuff):  Let’s now examine the fraud known as Bill Parcells. He seems to get lots of credit for turning losers into winners. Most recently, he took over a Cowboy team that had been dreadful for several years prior to his arrival. Immediately, they were contenders in the NFC. There was a bump in the road the following year, but the Cowboys were once again in the playoff mix in 2005.  But what has he done, really? In the three years prior to Parcells’ arrival, the Cowboys were 15-33. That’s pretty bad. In the three years since, they’ve been 25-23. Better. Is that Parcells, or is that just what bad teams naturally do in the NFL these days: get better? Since 1990, there have been 35 teams that won between 14 and 16 games over a three-year span. These teams, as a group, would have to be considered similar to the Cowboy team that Parcells inherited. Their performance during the next three years could serve as a yardstick against which to measure Parcells’ performance. During the next three years, the other comparably bad teams averaged 22 wins and 0.85 playoff appearances. Bill has notched 25 wins and one playoff appearance. Solid effort? Yes. Miraculous turnaround? No.  This is an interesting quote on Gibbs from a guy who did a statistical analysis of all NFL head coaches (it was 2004, so his comments on Cowher are out of date):  Joe Gibbs - Outside of Lombardi, and now Belichick, Gibbs is probably the finest Big Game coach ever. To put this in perspective, note that as of the end of 2004, Gibbs and Cowher have approximately the same regular season record. After that, well… Certainly Gibbs and Belichick have common traits of football intellect, hard work, preparation, and flexibility. Joe Gibbs is one of the true organizational wizards of his generation. It’s well documented that Gibbs won three Super Bowls with three different QB’s; but his first and last championship teams also have relatively few common players (9), compared to Lombardi, Noll, and Belichick, who won their checkered flags with many of the same stellar horses.  So yer argument is Parcells can do good work turning teams around--many would argue he left the Jets and Patriots in bad shape when he bolted--and won two Super Bowls. I agree with all of that, and think he should be in the HOF. But aint no Joe Gibbs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skins Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 (edited) Â Bullcrap. Gibbs' teams WERE "powerhouse teams" that were able to hold onto key players in the pre-cap/pre-free agency era. Same goes for the 49ers, whose '81 championship team was also [not] "very different" from their '88 and '89 championship teams. Â Â Â Thats bullAthena. The core players on the three Super Bowl winners for Gibbs were almost entirely different on both sides of the ball. Except for the amazing Darrell Green, of course. If you think Gibbs built a core team and rode it to those three SB wins, why dont you list the core players right here for us to see. Edited February 1, 2007 by skins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Thats bullAthena. The core players on the three Super Bowl winners for Gibbs were almost entirely different on both sides of the ball. Except for the amazing Darrell Green, of course. If you think Gibbs built a core team and rode it to those three SB wins, why dont you list the core players right here for us to see. Â Â I said that they were able to hold onto KEY players, moran. Like Darrell Green, Joe Jacoby, Jeff Bostic, Art Monk, Dexter Manley, Dave Butz, etc. Those were all high-quality players who, IIRC, each played on at least two of those championship teams. Â But if you want to think that there was no turnover in the 49ers from '81-'89, go right ahead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 He didnt take three franchises from the dumps and back to playoffs, and even if he did  Um, yes he did...  Patriots right before Parcells (1992): 2-14 Patriots in 1996: 11-5 and AFC Champion  Jets right before Parcells (1997): 1-15 Jets in 1998: 12-4, got to AFC Championship Game  Cowboys right before Parcells (2002): 5-11 Cowboys in 2003: 10-6, back to the playoffs  Oooh, snap! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caveman_Nick Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 I do give him credit for getting the 9-7 Patriots to the SB in 1996. But they were 9-7. Not great. Just playing real well when it counted. Credit to him. Â Â Â They were 11-5, dummy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caveman_Nick Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Um, yes he did...  Patriots right before Parcells (1992): 2-14 1993 with Parcells 5-11 1994 with Parcells 10-6, first playoff game in 8 years Patriots in 1996: 11-5 and AFC Champion  Jets right before Parcells (1997): 1-15 Jets in 1998: 12-4, got to AFC Championship Game  Cowboys right before Parcells (2002): 5-11 Cowboys in 2003: 10-6, back to the playoffs  Oooh, snap!    Just a little help there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skins Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 They were 11-5, dummy   Oh yeah. Got em confused.  Just a little help there...   Ow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skins Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 I said that they were able to hold onto KEY players, moran. Like Darrell Green, Joe Jacoby, Jeff Bostic, Art Monk, Dexter Manley, Dave Butz, etc. Those were all high-quality players who, IIRC, each played on at least two of those championship teams. Â But if you want to think that there was no turnover in the 49ers from '81-'89, go right ahead. Â Â I didnt say anything about the niners. Â But there was a lot more turnover on the three Gibbs SB winners. Sure they had some KEY players play on 2 of the three teams. But almost all the main skill players on offense turned over on each team and most of the defense. You referenced a few lineman, one great receiver and one great db. That isnt much to build on. Â From 82 to 87, new QB, new RB, new main WR, etc. Â By 91, a new QB and RB, and all new OL and almost all new defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pope Flick Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Girls, girls you're both pretty. Â Let's boil it down to this: Gibbs is a lock, and Parcells is a virtual lock. Unless something crazy happens chances are extremely good they'll both have their busts in Canton. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skins Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Girls, girls you're both pretty. Â Let's boil it down to this: Gibbs is a lock, and Parcells is a virtual lock. Unless something crazy happens chances are extremely good they'll both have their busts in Canton. Â Â Gibbs went in his first year of eligibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 (edited) I didnt say anything about the niners.  But there was a lot more turnover on the three Gibbs SB winners. Sure they had some KEY players play on 2 of the three teams. But almost all the main skill players on offense turned over on each team and most of the defense. You referenced a few lineman, one great receiver and one great db. That isnt much to build on.  From 82 to 87, new QB, new RB, new main WR, etc.  By 91, a new QB and RB, and all new OL and almost all new defense.   '81 49ers starters: QB: Montana RB: Cooper, Patton, others WRs: Clark, Solomon TE: Young O-line: Quillan, Ayers, Cross , Audick, Fahnhorse (Keith) D-line: Board, Reese, Dean, Stuckley LB: Reynolds, Turner , Leopold CB: Lott , Wright S: Williamson, Hicks  '88 49ers starters (Walsh's last year): QB: Montana RB: Craig, Ratham WR: Rice, Taylor TE: Jones/Frank/Heller O-line: Cross , McIntyre, Sapolu, Barton, Wallace D-line (3-4 defense now): Carter, Fagan, Roberts LB: Hayley, Turner , Fahnhorst (Jim), Walter CB: Griffin, McKyer S: Lott , Fuller  Between the '81 and '88 teams, Montana, Lott, and Randy Cross (who retired after the '88 season, IIRC) were the only "superstars" left (Keena Turner was also very good, but not in the same class). In fact, the rest of these teams were completely different. So, unless I'm missing somebody, all but FOUR starters turned over. What was that you were saying about completely different players? Edited February 1, 2007 by Bill Swerski Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skins Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 (edited) '81 49ers starters: QB: Montana RB: Cooper, Patton, others WRs: Clark, Solomon TE: Young O-line: Quillan, Ayers, Cross , Audick, Fahnhorse (Keith) D-line: Board, Reese, Dean, Stuckley LB: Reynolds, Turner , Leopold CB: Lott , Wright S: Williamson, Hicks  '88 49ers starters (Walsh's last year): QB: Montana RB: Craig, Ratham WR: Rice, Taylor TE: Jones/Frank/Heller O-line: Cross , McIntyre, Sapolu, Barton, Wallace D-line (3-4 defense now): Carter, Fagan, Roberts LB: Hayley, Turner , Fahnhorst (Jim), Walter CB: Griffin, McKyer S: Lott , Fuller  Between the '81 and '88 teams, Montana, Lott, and Randy Cross (who retired after the '88 season, IIRC) were the only "superstars" left (Keena Turner was also very good, but not in the same class). In fact, the rest of these teams were completely different. So, unless I'm missing somebody, all but FOUR starters turned over. What was that you were saying about completely different players?   I said the Redskins had different players. I dont care if the 49ers did, because Parcells didnt coach em. Nor did Gibbs. Yer just proving Walsh is better than Parcells also.  Yer getting a little confused. Take some nappy time and check back in later. Edited February 2, 2007 by skins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caveman_Nick Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Oh yeah. Got em confused. Ow. Â Â Â It doesn't mean I love you less. You're just messing with my Tuna. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skins Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 It doesn't mean I love you less. You're just messing with my Tuna. Â Â Why do you have to bring our personal lives into a discussion of NFL coaches? Â Why cant you be more sensitive? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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