isleseeya Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 Dont you have to completely deny logic in order for faith to work? I mean, it is illigocal and impossible to have a virgin birth, and yet, you believe it on faith. It is illogical and impossible for someone to rise from the dead, and yet, you believe it on faith. You never saw either of these things and neither has anyone else. Logically we know for a fact that they are impossible. How can logic and faith work as a tandem rather than having to completely disregard one in favor of the other? Here is one way to look at it ...jesus was a historical figure ..a man on earth many thousands of years ago ...christians believe that he performed miracles ( based on testimony of eye witnesses ) ...this ties in both logic (that jesus was a man on earth ) and faith ( miracles that were performed that none of us reading this ever saw first hand but we do beleive ) ....their is a realtionship there There have been other miracles of our time where modern day people have seen and reported which can not be explained , where there was no logical explanation or scientific explanation .....the two tie can tie together for sure ,imo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swampnuts Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 Anybody know which channel this news conference is going to be on tomorrow? I'd like to see this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spain Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 Here is one way to look at it ...jesus was a historical figure ..a man on earth many thousands of years ago ...christians believe that he performed miracles ( based on testimony of eye witnesses ) ...this ties in both logic (that jesus was a man on earth ) and faith ( miracles that were performed that none of us reading this ever saw first hand but we do beleive ) ....their is a realtionship there There have been other miracles of our time where modern day people have seen and reported which can not be explained , where there was no logical explanation or scientific explanation .....the two tie can tie together for sure ,imo I hear people see Mary in a grilled cheese sandwich and claim its a miracle. Thousands of others swear its a miracle. Now the grill cheese sandwich actually exists, but I have to throw all logic out the window to actually believed that some toasted bread is actually the face of a woman who may have lived 2000 years ago. The notion of logic being involved is absurd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmarc117 Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 Anybody know which channel this news conference is going to be on tomorrow? I'd like to see this. the scifi channel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isleseeya Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 I hear people see Mary in a grilled cheese sandwich and claim its a miracle. Thousands of others swear its a miracle. Now the grill cheese sandwich actually exists, but I have to throw all logic out the window to actually believed that some toasted bread is actually the face of a woman who may have lived 2000 years ago. The notion of logic being involved is absurd. I not putting the grilled chees sighting of mary in the miracle catergory either ....miracles I am referring to are more in line with Fatima , majorgoria , stigmata's , holy statues that cry blood of tears ....no science or logic has explained those but they are real occurrences You can be faithful and logical imo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 The notion of logic being involved is absurd. Thomas Aquinas and St Augustine were both great philosophers as well as Christian saints; and neither Jimmy nor Savage appear to be illogical fools, to bring it closer to home. Faith and logic can co-exist quite comfortably; the pity is that too many believers don't seem to allow them to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 You can be faithful and logical imo ...of course, to argue against my own point, part of the meaning of "faith" is that it involves a suspension of logic at times. But by the same token, a virgin birth and Jesus rising from the dead and ascending bodily to heaven aren't "logically impossible" - that is, they are events and/or concepts that can be conceived in the mind - something logically impossible would be along the lines of a square circle - or a contradiction in terms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Neutron Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 Dont you have to completely deny logic in order for faith to work? You can look at it that way. A logical person may have, at one time, said it was impossible for a man to walk on the moon. The body of knowledge we use to base logic on is growing. We can clone people now. We can bring people back from the dead, though only some of those very recently deceased. I understand where you're coming from. I have a love for empiricism myself. I've also seen enough really strange, unexplainable stuff to make be believe there are forces at work we don't yet understand. Religion is my way of pursuing things that science can not explain. It's really as simple as that. Because Jimmy and the rest are too afraid to believe you are on this Earth for around 70 years give or take and return to the carbon cycle so they worship some made up fiction? *lightening* Or I could be wron.......adggdffsssssscvxxxxxxxxxxxxxstsadfahh;krejklffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff Life would be pretty damn simple if I did believe that. Sundays off and a 15% raise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isleseeya Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 ...of course, to argue against my own point, part of the meaning of "faith" is that it involves a suspension of logic at times. But by the same token, a virgin birth and Jesus rising from the dead and ascending bodily to heaven aren't "logically impossible" - that is, they are events and/or concepts that can be conceived in the mind - something logically impossible would be along the lines of a square circle - or a contradiction in terms. Agreed and very well said I always knew I liked you for some reason chavez Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Neutron Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 Faith and logic can co-exist quite comfortably; the pity is that too many believers don't seem to allow them to do so. That's darn near scripture, there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 Agreed and very well said I always knew I liked you for some reason chavez Don't worry, I'm sure I'll have you pissed off at me in no time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 Maybe he can locate Santa's workshop next. Now that's a find I would be interested in. i already know were it is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spain Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 I think the entire thing is wholly illogical and I have no faith. Those of you that have faith think its perfectly logical. I am right of course. Check out this dude that defends Islam on another board I frequent from time to time. He seems as nutty in his religion as some of you do in yours to me. But it is interesting to read his reponses to peoples questions about Islam: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=329747 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Cid Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 Religion is my way of pursuing things that science can not explain. It's really as simple as that. Jimmy, I'm sure your choice fo the word pursuing here is deliberate. But does that mean that you choose to frame your understanding of these unexplained phenomena solely through dogma and doctrine rather than to support scientific methodology in pursuit of an answer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Beatings Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 God is the Father of ALL truth... sometimes a particular truth is revealed and understood through reason, while other times a truth is revealed and understood through faith. The two (reason and faith) support each other in our comprehension of the complete picture of our existance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Cid Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 God is the Father of ALL truth... sometimes a particular truth is revealed and understood through reason, while other times a truth is revealed and understood through faith. The two (reason and faith) support each other in our comprehension of the complete picture of our existance. Even if logic, reason and empiracle evidence disagree with the truth revealed through faith? For example: evolution v creationism. Exactly how do the two support each other here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godtomsatan Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 Pbuh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spain Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 Pbuh. I saw that but dont know what it means... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Beatings Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 Even if logic, reason and empiracle evidence disagree with the truth revealed through faith? For example: evolution v creationism. Exactly how do the two support each other here? There is absolutely zero conflict between creationism and evolution... I believe that God created the universe AND I also believe that life on Earth developed through a process of evolution. Usually when there is a supposed conflict between the two (faith and reason), it is because one side or the other has shut itself off from the possibliites that the other side presents. Many educated Christians have come to see the beauty inherent in the marriage between faith and reason. The Rev. Dr. John Polkinghorne leads the way in a contemporary understanding this, and as others have pointed out the very foundations of Western Philosophy were built by Christians using logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGrunt Posted February 25, 2007 Author Share Posted February 25, 2007 I think the entire thing is wholly illogical and I have no faith. Those of you that have faith think its perfectly logical. I am right of course. Check out this dude that defends Islam on another board I frequent from time to time. He seems as nutty in his religion as some of you do in yours to me. But it is interesting to read his reponses to peoples questions about Islam: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=329747 I was reading some of his responses to these questions and that's a pretty interesting topic as well. It's also interesting that every religion out there has 'faith', and they all believe they are the correct religion. My assumption for where things went wrong with religion is the point where people considered many of the stories behind their religion as truth, when instead they should have been focusing on the morals and values behind religion. If indeed it was Jesus Christ that was found in the tomb, and I consider the very possible idea that it could be him, it shouldn't mean Christianity as we know it should dwindle and go away because of one exaggerated story that might be found to be false. The morals and values behind Christianity still remain, and in my opinion they have some great morals behind their religion (most of the ten commandments). But you do have to look past the typical exaggerated stories about "great miracles", and these stories are something every major religion uses. If Christians can remain strong and idealistic about the true fundamental's about their religion, than this finding shouldn't cause to much of an issue regarding the basis behind Christianity. It will, however, reveal the truth behind the exaggeration in many of their stories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Holy Roller Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 Quick now, song and performer(s): "...I believe in miracles, you sexy thing..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spain Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 "...I believe in miracles, you sexy thing..." I'll take, "Things a Priest might say to an alterboy" for $400 Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big John Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 Quick now, song and performer(s): "...I believe in miracles, you sexy thing..." You Sexy Thing - Hot Chocolate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whomper Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 I'll take, "Things a Priest might say to an alterboy" for $400 Alex I cant believe it took 72 posts for Spains priest altar boy joke..You're slippin espana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Cid Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 I was reading some of his responses to these questions and that's a pretty interesting topic as well. It's also interesting that every religion out there has 'faith', and they all believe they are the correct religion. My assumption for where things went wrong with religion is the point where people considered many of the stories behind their religion as truth, when instead they should have been focusing on the morals and values behind religion. There are three distincly different things being spoken about here and it's important to understand that. Spirituality is the belief or feeling that there's something bigger than humans in this world and that it deserves at least our acknowledgement if not our adulation. Faith is belief in a higher power without empiracle evidence to support this power's existence. Religion is the rules by which this higher power is worshiped. These are somwhat simplistic definitions, but they serve to illustrate the differences between the three concepts. Of the three, only spirituality comes from within an individual. Faith can come from within an individual, but when it is spoken about with a capital F, it mostly describes belief in something as defined by a religion. Therefore the impetuous is external to the individual. Religion is a man made construct and as such is subject to constant interpretation and evolution as the cultural baseline of the individuals that make up the ruling body of the religion change. That makes religion very suspect as an arbiter of what is right and wrong or as a moral compass. The problem as always, is not the thing (in this case religion) but the people. Whether it be the power brokers within the religion attempting to manipulate the masses or the individuals that seek other like minded people to stave off the fear of being alone, religion is a tool to achieve a purpose or desired result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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