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TheGrunt

James Cameron: maker of the movie 'The Titanic'

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Jimmy,

 

I'm sure your choice fo the word pursuing here is deliberate. But does that mean that you choose to frame your understanding of these unexplained phenomena solely through dogma and doctrine rather than to support scientific methodology in pursuit of an answer?

 

 

Of course not, I merely leave that avenue open as an option. When I come across something I don't understand, I put it on the top shelf of my mind - so to speak. As I learn new things, through any type of study, I try to go back and apply these new things to those items I could not reconcile. I know this sounds like gobbledygook, but this works for me. I've gained insight on temporal matters through spiritual study and vice versa. It's not an either/or deal for me - it's an and/both.

 

Good discussion. :D I appreciate the courtesy even if it's out of respect for DMDs thread gun rather than respect for others' beliefs. :D

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Of course not, I merely leave that avenue open as an option. When I come across something I don't understand, I put it on the top shelf of my mind - so to speak. As I learn new things, through any type of study, I try to go back and apply these new things to those items I could not reconcile. I know this sounds like gobbledygook, but this works for me. I've gained insight on temporal matters through spiritual study and vice versa. It's not an either/or deal for me - it's an and/both.

 

Good discussion. :D I appreciate the courtesy even if it's out of respect for DMDs thread gun rather than respect for others' beliefs. :D

 

Nah, I tend to only bash people like moneymakers who are incapable of having a discussion on issues of spirituality and religion. Although I have been guilty of shooting first and asking questions later at times. My biggest problem is with those that toe the "party line" so to speak. Unwilling to at least entertain the idea that things can be questioned, even the dogma that is being spread from on high. My questions and answers have led me resolutely away from any and all organized religions. But that doesn't mean I have all the answers either. It just means that for me, the religions don't have any.

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I appreciate the courtesy even if it's out of respect for DMDs thread gun rather than respect for others' beliefs. :D

 

Screw the thread gun. I am courteous in these discussions until someone proves unworthy of the courtesy.

 

wiegie, another man of faith AND logic, should be able to vouch for me on that count.

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Unwilling to at least entertain the idea that things can be questioned, even the dogma that is being spread from on high. My questions and answers have led me resolutely away from any and all organized religions. But that doesn't mean I have all the answers either. It just means that for me, the religions don't have any.

 

Spirituality and faith are beautiful things; organized religion, somewhat less so.

 

But as I describe my agnosticism to those willing to engage - we're all smart people, I just find a different conclusion than you do from looking at an admittedly thin amount of evidence.

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Screw the thread gun. I am courteous in these discussions until someone proves unworthy of the courtesy.

 

wiegie, another man of faith AND logic, should be able to vouch for me on that count.

 

Its people like chavez that ruin this darn board....

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You Sexy Thing - Hot Chocolate. :D

 

 

Was there any doubt who would win? None. I had faith in the logic that Big John would know the answer. Just like I have faith that my Heavenly Father uses His logic to accomplish His will.

Edited by The Holy Roller

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My biggest problem is with those that toe the "party line" so to speak. Unwilling to at least entertain the idea that things can be questioned, even the dogma that is being spread from on high. My questions and answers have led me resolutely away from any and all organized religions. But that doesn't mean I have all the answers either. It just means that for me, the religions don't have any.

 

 

I agree that way too many religious folks don't like to hash ideas out. I really enjoy it as long as it's done civily. Some of the best conversations I've had in life have been with ministers of other faiths. Some of the worst ones too - before I realized how hypocritical it is to claim to be a follower of Christ and revel in contentious argument. :D

 

I understand your sentiment about organized religion, lots of people feel that way.

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It's somewhat true that some religious folks don't like to hash out ideas that differ from theirs. I for one, find it difficult to turn people from non-believers into believers. How do you ask people to believe in miracles?

 

My folks went to church every Sunday but if I ever asked them why, they would say because we're supposed to. Life without God is a sad existence, imo.

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It's somewhat true that some religious folks don't like to hash out ideas that differ from theirs. I for one, find it difficult to turn people from non-believers into believers. How do you ask people to believe in miracles?

 

 

That's exactly the problem. The general perception among many non-religious people is that religious folks are always trying to convert them. Do lots of people really experience this, or do some people just have a strong aversion to talking about religion period?

 

It does blow me away that some people get so :D or :tup: about a couple of guys in white shirts knocking on thier door. Is it really hard to say, "No thanks, guys?" I usually invite the 7th Day people in for a glass of lemonade. What the heck does it hurt to talk? :D

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It's somewhat true that some religious folks don't like to hash out ideas that differ from theirs. I for one, find it difficult to turn people from non-believers into believers. How do you ask people to believe in miracles?

 

So are you saying that it's more important to believe in the "history" as detailed in the bible than it is to believe in the underlying philosophies/ethics/morals? That's the great failing of most religions in that they put more stock in the written word than in the message that's supposed to be sent.

 

My folks went to church every Sunday but if I ever asked them why, they would say because we're supposed to.

 

That's like when saking your parents why you had to do something they say "because I told you to." Neither are acceptable answers IMO. It just means that they don't know either.

 

Life without God is a sad existence, imo.

 

 

Why? Because there has to be a purpose to life and this god provides that? Because I can't feel fulfilled without this notion of god? This sounds to me like your projecting your world and understanding onto others without a basis for doing so. Projecting on faith, so to speak. How do you know my existence is sad? We're both born, we both die. We both take advantage of the technological innovations our society has to offer us. Personally, I'm pretty happy with my life. I live life to the fullest and take advantage of the opportunities that present themselves.

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How do you know my existence is sad? We're both born, we both die. We both take advantage of the technological innovations our society has to offer us. Personally, I'm pretty happy with my life. I live life to the fullest and take advantage of the opportunities that present themselves.

 

 

I'm not saying that you should walk around feeling sad that you don't believe in God. I'm saying that there would be an emptyness in myself if I lived that way but you may not feel the same way for yourself.

 

As far as Holy Rollers or anyother religion that feel like they have to pass out leaflets to try to convert people to their ways, I don't feel that way.

 

Not saying anything bad about Mormons, since I have friends that are Mormon and my wife's nephew married a Mormon. But one time they were standing out on the street corner passing out materials. It was 20 degrees below zero that day, so wouldn't that be a bad day to be asking people to stop and talk to them?

Edited by MikesVikes

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So when does the new blockbuster Cameron film titled EASTER SUNDAY start production? :D

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I'm not saying that you should walk around feeling sad that you don't believe in God. I'm saying that there would be an emptyness in myself if I lived that way but you may not feel the same way for yourself.

 

 

This is stated much better than the way you said it previously. This is a statement about yourself of which you have first hand knowledge. The previous statement was about other of which you have no knowledge. You weren't trying to antagonize others, but the way it came out others could certainly be put off.

 

That's not a statement about religion per se, that's a statement about communication. Say exactly what you mean don't expect others to interpret things in the way that you would. Only be ambiguous when you want others to think about the alternatives.

 

Ok, I've had a bad day and I'm getting preachy. I'll give it a rest now. :D

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That's exactly the problem. The general perception among many non-religious people is that religious folks are always trying to convert them. Do lots of people really experience this, or do some people just have a strong aversion to talking about religion period?

:D

 

I think that part of the problem is illustrated by MikesVikes - people of faith (not to be confused with people of habit, if you know what I'm sayin') get a TREMENDOUS sense of fulfillment from their belief; and like any reasonably empathetic person, they have a good thing that doesn't cost a dime and they want to share it with their friends and family.

 

The problem is that spiritual fulfillment is a highly subjective and personal feeling; telling someone about it doesn't really get across what is trying to be gotten across.

 

That said, I had a guy knock on my door and chatted with him for several minutes - he was trying to make me see his side of things, and really I understood his side of things logically but he couldn't get across that not having the intense internal experience regarding being touched by God, I couldn't understand his side of things emotionally - and really, emotion is the root of faith.

 

Oh, and I busted on him for trying to use Pascal's Wager on me.

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That's exactly the problem. The general perception among many non-religious people is that religious folks are always trying to convert them. Do lots of people really experience this, or do some people just have a strong aversion to talking about religion period?

 

It does blow me away that some people get so :D or :tup: about a couple of guys in white shirts knocking on thier door. Is it really hard to say, "No thanks, guys?" I usually invite the 7th Day people in for a glass of lemonade. What the heck does it hurt to talk? :D

 

 

In my experience with both Mormons and Jehovah's Witness that have come to my door, they are willing to tell you what they came to tell you but if you ask any questions outside their script, they tend to become scared and angry. Don't even try to ask them to explain a particular part of their theology that may not jive with conventional beliefs. They seem to fear anyone that has a knowledge of scripture or a grasp of their theology. Most of the ones that come door to door do not have a good knowledge of their own faith. They lack knowledge of its history, the changes that have made to their own sacred scriptures, and a few newbies that don't even know their own religion's end game.

 

If your going to knock on my door at least bring your A game. I am more than willing to listen, discuss, and go over all the facts. In my experience these door to door guys have one agenda, get another notch in their belt or move on. What the heck does it hurt to talk?

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I saw that but dont know what it means...

 

 

 

PBUH

 

Peace be upon him (Arabic: صلى الله عليه وسلم ;ﷺ; salla Allahu alayhi wa sallam, also transliterated as sallalahu aleyhi wasallam or salallahu alayhi wasalaam) is a phrase that Muslims often say after mentioning the name of the Islamic prophets such as Muhammad, Jesus Christ, Abraham and all the other prophets cited in the Qur'an. Shia Muslims mention a similar salutation (aleyhi salaam - upon him be peace) after mentioning Ali ibn Abi Talib or one of the imams that followed Ali. An alternative translation is "May Allah bless him and grant him peace." In Arabic, these salutations are called salawat. Sometimes, on the Internet, it is abbreviated to "saw" or "pbuh".

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So when does the new blockbuster Cameron film titled EASTER SUNDAY start production? :D

 

They will be presenting their "evidence" in a Discovery Channel special (likely squeezed between UFO and Haunted House specials that the Discovery Channel is known for).

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You can look at it that way. A logical person may have, at one time, said it was impossible for a man to walk on the moon. The body of knowledge we use to base logic on is growing. We can clone people now. We can bring people back from the dead, though only some of those very recently deceased.

 

I understand where you're coming from. I have a love for empiricism myself. I've also seen enough really strange, unexplainable stuff to make be believe there are forces at work we don't yet understand. Religion is my way of pursuing things that science can not explain. It's really as simple as that. :D

:DLife would be pretty damn simple if I did believe that. Sundays off and a 15% raise.

 

 

Actually, we cannot. Yet.

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There are three distincly different things being spoken about here and it's important to understand that. Spirituality is the belief or feeling that there's something bigger than humans in this world and that it deserves at least our acknowledgement if not our adulation. Faith is belief in a higher power without empiracle evidence to support this power's existence. Religion is the rules by which this higher power is worshiped. These are somwhat simplistic definitions, but they serve to illustrate the differences between the three concepts.

 

Of the three, only spirituality comes from within an individual. Faith can come from within an individual, but when it is spoken about with a capital F, it mostly describes belief in something as defined by a religion. Therefore the impetuous is external to the individual. Religion is a man made construct and as such is subject to constant interpretation and evolution as the cultural baseline of the individuals that make up the ruling body of the religion change. That makes religion very suspect as an arbiter of what is right and wrong or as a moral compass. The problem as always, is not the thing (in this case religion) but the people. Whether it be the power brokers within the religion attempting to manipulate the masses or the individuals that seek other like minded people to stave off the fear of being alone, religion is a tool to achieve a purpose or desired result.

 

 

Wow. Excellent post.

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If your going to knock on my door at least bring your A game.

 

 

:D That's exactly the problem - it's a game or competition to you. That's hardly a constructive starting point for an enlightening conversation on any topic, let alone something as potentially devisive as religion.

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Actually, we cannot. Yet.

 

 

Why not? We've cloned sheep, cats and I think dogs. What's the hold up on cloning Einstein - besides that whole moral dilema? :DI've read several stories speculating that researchers are cloning people in Norway and Japan (or Taiwan).

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So, in Cameron's movie do we get to see Leonard DiCaprio as Jesus Christ proudly proclaiming:

 

"I'm the King of the World Jews!"

 

:D

 

Sorry, I couldn't resist. :D

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Why not? We've cloned sheep, cats and I think dogs. What's the hold up on cloning Einstein - besides that whole moral dilema? :DI've read several stories speculating that researchers are cloning people in Norway and Japan (or Taiwan).

 

 

I just read an article the other day about how it was the 10th anniversary of the cloning of Dolly. They went through the history of cloning and the crackpots that claimed they were able to clone humans but all proved to be con artists. The article stated we are still not near the cloning of people. I'll see if I can find it again.

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Here you go:

 

:D

 

So where does this dismal history leave cloning today?

 

Animal cloning has proven incredibly difficult. There are noises being made about introducing meat or milk from cloned animals into the food supply, but the economic practicality of that happening given how hard and expensive it is to clone animals makes this all talk. The huge risk of creating a dead or deformed baby has put all talk of human cloning firmly on the back burner. The fact that there still has been no successful cloning of a primate using Dolly-style techniques shows just how hard — or maybe, impossible — human cloning is.

 

Cloning for research is still of interest to scientists around the world, but no one has been able to make it work reliably.

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I just read an article the other day about how it was the 10th anniversary of the cloning of Dolly. They went through the history of cloning and the crackpots that claimed they were able to clone humans but all proved to be con artists. The article stated we are still not near the cloning of people. I'll see if I can find it again.

 

 

That'd be great. I did not realize there were considerable obstacles in cloning humans in contrast to other vertabrates.

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