A serious topic that I'd like some comments on.

[Yukon Cornelius]

 

While I really hope that your Godson does not end up getting fired, I would seriously advise him to look for another place to work regardless. I sure wouldn't want to continue working with people like that.

 

yup

[sunysteelfly76]

Even if he doesn't have tenure, they can't just fire him without cause, can they?

 

 

 

Probably not

 

 

 

It's been awhile since my HR class at wonderful Grand Valley State. From what I recall, non-tenured teachers can be fired for a good reason or a bad reason. They just can't be fired for an illegal reason such as based on discrimination.

 

 

Unfortunately Egret is right. There is little the teachers' union can do to protect him brcause he is non-tenured. The district does not even have to give a reason. Non-tenured teachers are basically on one year contracts until they get tenure. It is just considered "non-renewal a of contract."

 

I hope everything works out for your godson.

[wiegie]

Unfortunately Egret is right. There is little the teachers' union can do to protect him brcause he is non-tenured.

 

Then he ought to sue the union to get his dues back.

[rocknrobn26]

Thanks for all the comments and well wishes. I hope some of our "board" lawyers comment also. I'm very interested in their perspective.

FWIW, my wife taught at this school for 25 years. She had this principal for >5 years. The woman is a paranoid, bipolar nutball! She'd praise my wife one day and the next chastise her for trivial things, sometimes in public! Sometimes even when my wife would follow her instructions, she'd get called on the carpet and the principal's reply..."We'll that's not what I really meant!". Again, my GS was this principal's "fair haired boy". I used to joke w/ him calling him her "boy toy".

Let me answer some of the questions:

 

The union can't do much as there are different rules for dismissal for tenured and non-tenured teachers, but he is being rep'd by them and their lawyers.

Yes, basically what suny said is true, year to year. They just don't renew the contract. Can they fire him before year's end is an issue that isn't as clear. That could be the grounds for a suit. And Yuke, what you said of some schools purposely not granting tenure is true, rare, but true.

Whomp, good DA POV! Very plausible.

Egret, the book slipped thru the radar last year. Hopefully the union can use that as past practice.

Boat, there really is no list of approved/unapproved books. And it is in the town's library, FWIW.

Wolv, to my knowledge the only teacher that was upset was the aforementioned one. NO PARENTS....YET! Most if not all of the teachers are siding w/ my GS, but don't have much hope. He is very well liked at this school.

Bill, you are correct as noted above.

TD, my Mrs. is on top of this thing. The building union reps are very good friends of hers and they have been talking daily. I read this post to my wife. She didn't want me to do it. Her words "What if the (narc) reads it?, What if the principal reads it?, etc.". I said I posted no names, school, dist, or any real identifiable facts. I also told her that if we ever go somewhere where the narc is, that I promise to publicly embarrass him and verbally kick his ass. Anyway, my wife corroborated my description, but wasn't sure if the book was written by a NY or LA gang member.

Det, I agree!

Savage, supposedly the narc is now sorry for what he did, but you can't unring a bell! And, the fact is, he's a well known butt kisser of the principal.

Wiegie, the union is doing all that they can. I'm curious to see what happens to my GS's mentor! She is supposed to retire this year or next!

 

Thanks again all. I hope I didn't miss anyone's post. I'll post when the final act is over. Could be tomorrow, as the board has a closed session meeting on this tonight.

[Bill Swerski]

I had forgotten that high school teachers are on year-to-year contracts proir to tenure. If that's the case, I suppose that they could let this guy go at the end of his contract and avoid a lawsuit. Sad but true.

 

Unfortunately, your comments about the principal being a nut don't surprise me. The quality of public school teachers has gone downhill big-time over the past decade in a number of places. I hear all kinds of stories from my mother about the incompetent teachers and teachers with serious psychological issues that she has to deal with.

 

I hope that your godson is looking for another position right now. It sounds like there are some senior faculty members who really like him and I believe that using one or more of them as a reference would greatly help in his interviewing.

[MikesVikes]

If teachers are on year to year contracts, that doesn't mean that the union won't stand behind them in legal issues, imo. If they don't then they need new representatives to replace those. The union may be the proper protocol for this since they deal with these things more often than you'd know. I've seen cases where the union rep takes over these issues and the person in question has very little say in the matter. Sometimes that can suck just as much as having no representation. I think that things like these get settled with no terminations very often.

[Czarina]

I had forgotten that high school teachers are on year-to-year contracts proir to tenure. If that's the case, I suppose that they could let this guy go at the end of his contract and avoid a lawsuit. Sad but true.

 

Unfortunately, your comments about the principal being a nut don't surprise me. The quality of public school teachers has gone downhill big-time over the past decade in a number of places. I hear all kinds of stories from my mother about the incompetent teachers and teachers with serious psychological issues that she has to deal with.

 

I hope that your godson is looking for another position right now. It sounds like there are some senior faculty members who really like him and I believe that using one or more of them as a reference would greatly help in his interviewing.

 

The job of principal tends to attract people who are Little Napoleans. It's the nature of the beast. Situations like this one are why teachers unions fight for things like tenure, because one nutjob can cause serious damage to your career.

[Skippy]

The job of principal tends to attract people who are Little Napoleans. It's the nature of the beast. Situations like this one are why teachers unions fight for things like tenure, because one nutjob can cause serious damage to your career.

 

This is gospel. Read it twice before you ever need to deal with a principal. If you are a teacher read it three times. There are some really good principals out there but in my experince over 19 years and hundred's of them is that they feel the need to be important. You must feed that need if you are ever going to have to deal with a principal.

 

RR - stories like this make me sick. I have seen it a million times. It is a very long story but one of the main reasons that I did not take a vocational teaching job that I jumped through hoops to get was because of the principal. I have a pm coming your way soon.

[Chavez]

Yeah, well... I drink.

 

wiegie drinks as well; I think it's your past use of the ganj, the Josh Gordon, Mary Jane, etc that slowed you down.

[Chavez]

Say, RR, for about $3k (friend rates) I can make sure this drama teacher won't be botherin' your godson anymore.

[Big Country]

Say, RR, for about $3k (friend rates) I can make sure this drama teacher won't be botherin' your godson anymore.

 

 

NSab would do it cheaper.

[Clubfoothead]

Then he ought to sue the union to get his dues back.

 

 

Well it's not like they spill coffee on his lap.

 

RR, while I'd guess this is federal labor law, there's a lawyer from CHicago that will be in our office for the next week. Shoot me a PM if you have any questions and I'll run them by him.

[Chavez]

NSab would do it cheaper.

 

Do you want the job done, or do you want it done RIGHT?

[Jimmy Neutron]

Is the book on the district's "banned" list? If not, he probably has recourse - that's how it works here, anyway.

[Furd]

I didn't read the replies, so I apologize if I am repeating something.

 

It depends on one or more of these: 1) the laws of the State; 2) is he in a union protected by a collective bargaining agreement; or 3) does he have a contract?

 

I believe that Illinois is what is called an at will employment state. This means that without an employment contract or the like that defines grounds for termination of employment, an employer can terminate an employee for any reason (as long as they are nondiscriminatory) or no reason. If your godson is an at-will employee, there is nothing he can do.

 

He may be protected by a union collective bargaining agreement or a contract. These may provide that an employee may not be terminated unless certain conditions are met. If the disctrict ran afoul of one of these provisions, your godson may have recourse.

[Furd]

And if you guys think that your employer needs "cause" to terminate you, you're probably mistaken.

[dmarc117]

i think some ot these tenured teachers that sit like lumps on a log should be canned instead of hard working young ones

[Chavez]

i think some ot these tenured teachers that sit like lumps on a log should be canned instead of hard working young ones

 

Well, on the plus side, if RR's godson does manage to hang onto his job, the school will have beaten that energetic, hardworking, optimism RIGHT outta him with this incident.

[sunysteelfly76]

If teachers are on year to year contracts, that doesn't mean that the union won't stand behind them in legal issues, imo. If they don't then they need new representatives to replace those.

 

 

Non-tenured teachers are on what are basically year to year contracts. If he is let go immediately, I'm sure the union would grieve it because he is still working under his current "one year deal". But after this current school year there is nothing the union can do to save his position. The district can simply not renew his contract, and that would be the end of it.

[rocknrobn26]

Dayum! You guys and gals are great!!!! I am toast right now. Long session w/ our dog trainer and too many phones calls. Skippy, PM sent! I'll reply to each of you tomorrow! I am humbled! What a great freakin' place to be!

[boat_hacked]

don't know if this will help. but HERE is a website that may help direct you in right direction.

[jaxfactor]

 

 

 

I also told her that if we ever go somewhere where the narc is, that I promise to publicly embarrass him and verbally kick his ass.

 

 

You and I think alike on this subject, RnR. I hope everything works out ok. Please keep us updated. Oh, and the narc needs his ass kicked physically as well.

[Pope Flick]

Well?

[rocknrobn26]

Still no word yet. The board might be looking at it closer.

 

Bill is correct Mike, non-tenured teachers are year to year and the board has to give no reason for not re-hiring.

Tenure law in ILL. is 3 years for a teacher who has previously taught and 4 years for a new teacher just starting. Tenured teachers can be riffed according to seniority. This varies a lot as some dist. employ dist. seniority others building seniority. They can also be fired, but it takes 1-3 years, depending on the dist, w/ very copious records of poor performance.

Mike, Yes the union will support him, but as far as an immediate release only. They can do nothing for him if the dist. decides not to offer him a 2007-8 contract.

Czar, very true! Add the upper admin, in this dist. is VERY power hungry and make a paranoid environment. In thye case of my GS's principal......she's just a whackjob. Ironically, my GS told me that wanted to become an admin. during his career. I discussed the negs. w/ him such as loss of tenure and union protection.

Skip, it's a shame that happened! Knowing you as you are, you would have been a great VocEd teacher!

Chavez, I appreciate the jesture, but remember, I have Guido and Vinny on retainer. And as far as your comment on his future positve outlook.....I hope he doesn't get that way, but it's possible.

Club, check your PM's and TY! Still waiting to see what happens.

Jimmy, there is no official allowed/banned list.

Furd, 1) the laws of the State; Illinois is a closed shop state. That is you have to be a member, but they dilute that w/ a status of "Fair Share Member", which is lower dues, but not much lower, FSM's can't vote on contractural issues, but are fully proteced by the union. Yeah, Iknow, it sounds

2) is he in a union protected by a collective bargaining agreement; YES or 3) does he have a contract? YES, currently.

"I believe that Illinois is what is called an at will employment state. This means that without an employment contract or the like that defines grounds for termination of employment, an employer can terminate an employee for any reason (as long as they are nondiscriminatory) or no reason. If your godson is an at-will employee, there is nothing he can do.

He may be protected by a union collective bargaining agreement or a contract. These may provide that an employee may not be terminated unless certain conditions are met. If the disctrict ran afoul of one of these provisions, your godson may have recourse." I never heard that term before. As far as education goes, I believe every teacher in the state has a contract and is protected by a collective bargaining agreement, union affiliated or not. The school code and tenure laws in ILL. are very good.

dmarc, I would agree, but in my 31 years of teaching I truly saw very few "Lazy lumps" or Bad teachers, but the def. of those terms would vary greatly between teachers and non-teachers. If pressed for a number, I'd say 1-2% bad.....maybe!

suny, Read above I agree w/ you 100%.

Boat, thanks for the link.

Jax, In my younger days I would also.

Edited May 8, 2007 by rocknrobn26

[Furd]

As far as education goes, I believe every teacher in the state has a contract and is protected by a collective bargaining agreement, union affiliated or not. The school code and tenure laws in ILL. are very good.

 

Well then we're all just speculating here. Whether the school district has grounds to terminate or reprimand your godson is likely contained in those agreements.